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Underground > Laboratory >

The Antikythera Device- world's oldest computer?

10:54 / 11.06.06

2000 year old gearing mechanism implies the Greeks had a Heliocentric model of the solar system and devices to predict the planet's motion.

The "Antikythera Mechanism" was discovered damaged and fragmented on the wreck of a cargo ship off the tiny Greek island of Antikythera in 1900.

Now, a joint British-Greek research team has found a hidden ancient Greek inscription on the device, which it thinks could unlock the mystery.

The team believes the Antikythera Mechanism may be the world's oldest computer, used by the Greeks to predict the motion of the planets.

The researchers say the device indicates a technical sophistication that would not be replicated for millennia and may also be based on principles of a heliocentric, or sun-centred, universe - a view of the cosmos that was not accepted by astronomers until the Renaissance.

Cool eh? It's quite Lovecraftian if you ask me. What if it turns out to be a machine to guide you to Rl'yeh?

All Acting Regiment

11:02 / 11.06.06

I beleive we have a thread on this already, but yeah, it's great. I really think we should re-assess where we put ourselves in terms of advancements over historical people.

11:23 / 11.06.06

I'm not sure thats true, Legba, since I think it is already widely accepted that there was Greek and Arabic knowledge of science that wasn't present in Europe for a fairly long period up to the Renaissance or so. Certainly, I already knew that (some) ancient Greeks had a heliocentric model. I'm not sure about the "computer" aspect of the story though. There is a rather big difference between a computer and a device that tracks planetary orbits.

Also, I know you mean well Quantum, but isn't the desire to turn a piece of history into a fanatasy horror story a little...misguided? Or do people really find the only way to relate to science and history as interesting subjects is via sensationalist fiction? I'm just curious because of some of the discussions we had about the direction of the lab...which now seemed to have stopped, unfortunately.

13:23 / 11.06.06

I couldn't find an old thread, but this was in the news because they've X-rayed some text on it which has given them some new clues. Unfortunately I haven't found out what the text says yet.
I don't really think it's got anything to do with Cthulhu, I'm primarily interested in it as a machine. I'm convinced contemporary archaology and anthropology underestimate the technology and accomplishments of the ancients- trade routes from polynesia to northern Europe for example. If we can show that there were devices to allow navigation without accurate chronometers 2000 years ago then it might be easier to get the long-distance trade routes theory a bit more academic credibility. I might start a thread on the Mattang* if anyone's interested but I'm not sure if that's Lab material.
The human genome project is throwing up some interesting data related to this too, indicating a much wider spread of interbreeding than thought but again maybe it's another thread.

The device is fascinating, I had no idea the Greeks made gears- the Archimedes screw isn't quite clockwork. But it makes sense thinking about it, ballistae and catapults need them I suppose.

*a mnemonic to allow navigation by waves and swells and their interference, stick charts

16:45 / 11.06.06

As Lurid says, it doesn't sound much like a computer, but, well, popular science journalism. It's a machine that does clever things, ergo, it's a computer.

Predictability enough, the comments have been taken over by "omg aliens" lunacy and a huge argument about the Catholic Church, but I did see this link to a paper by Mr Michael Wright about the gearing of the device, with a picture of a theorised reconstruction, in case anyone missed it.

*

17:29 / 11.06.06

I'm sure I don't know where he's getting that, but interesting if there's a basis for it.

Couldn't it be a more complex version of a kleroterion?

18:39 / 11.06.06

I think the trouble here is that a lot of people wnat to define it as an early computer so that is what they see. When in fact, a lot of the "proto-computer" devices may have been things with a similar method of calculation and nothing else in common. And I think the exoticism of ancient cultures is part of this problem. There was no lost mystical wisdom, just some myths and stories and maybe a big stack of administrative documents.

I mean I could probably count to a million on my fingers but does that mean I have ten calculators on my hands?

All Acting Regiment

22:49 / 11.06.06

Some good points, Lurid, but I also meant in terms of politics and so on. I've just started reading Greek/classical literature, and I'm constantly being surprised at how right-on a lot of it is compared to the received second hand impressions we work with before we read the source.

16:24 / 12.06.06

fridge- thanks for that, I had missed the link amongst the conspiracies. The device is so pretty! I want one! Then I want a clock of the Long Now and then a clockwork pony. I think I'll read the Antikythera paper when I'm not at work.

I know it's just science journalism dumbing down to say it's a computer, but if it's used to calculate the orbits of planets then could you say it was a computer in a technical sense? It computes for you, performing automated mathematical functions, like a really simple Babbage engine. Or is it more like a mechanical calendar, a complicated Sun stone?

17:45 / 30.11.06

News;
"Mechanism hailed as more valuable than Mona Lisa
Device with gear wheels tracked sun and moon "
Since its discovery, scientists have been trying to reconstruct the device, which is now known to be an astronomical calendar capable of tracking with remarkable precision the position of the sun, several heavenly bodies and the phases of the moon.

Also here's the older thread