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Writing erotica

22:30 / 08.06.06

I have, in the past, written erotica for myself. No surprise. I'm sure many writers have done so. But recently, I wrote a short story for Literotica and it fared very well. I became interested in what I could do stylistically with erotic content. I found it stretched my writing muscles to try and find new and interesting ways to write simple penetration. It's hard to express the emotions involved in erotica.

I don't plan on linking to my Literotica submission, unless you really want to read it... then you'll have to PM me.

This thread was conceived for a few different reasons. As a writer, how do you perceive erotica? Is it an art you'd like to try your hand at, or is it simple pornography? Do you think erotica is limited? Or infinite like other art? Where does the line between erotica and pornography exist? Have you ever written any erotica?

23:54 / 08.06.06

ya right matt, everyone's prob'ly had a go. i always find it hard to make the sex sincere and i can't seem to help but degenerate into pornography, when i usually give up. that said, i have conceived a few 'sexy' scenes for a novel i'm writing and without having to sustain 'erotica' i have found these much easier...

the line 'twixt erotica and porn? hard to say. i think when you are trying to describe body parts it descends to porn, or you resort to bad metaphors and then it becomes funny. but it isn't a genre i'm naturally inclined toward. and yes, it probably is pretty broad, like any genre.

but interesting issue.

03:05 / 09.06.06

I think erotica doesn't necesarilly have to be "pornographic"... if done well enough it can even become "literature."

the key probably lies in what surrounds the sex itself... simply describing sex scenes is trite... you need developed characters (and i don't mean physically haha). the sex has to have emotional resonance. i think that's what seperates "erotica" from "pornography."

if you want to go beyond erotica, and into true literature, you're going to have to intertwine more complex concepts, make it more complicated. the sex can be a vehicle for other themes. the only real good examples I can think of aren't prose, though: Y Tu Mama Tambien, for instance, or Egon Schiele's paintings. Of course, if you get too conceptual (think JG Ballard's Crash), or put too much emphasis on the awkwardness or grim realities of sex (the Squid and the Whale, Kids, Requiem for a Dream) it stops being arousing. This isn't necesarilly a bad thing, of course, I just don't think you'd be able to qualify it as erotica at that point.

I certainly do think that works which explore the issue of sex and sexuality in new lights, or in relation to broader issues, are much more rewarding than the stuff you find on Literotica and the like. It basically comes down to how important it is for the work to arouse people, and how important it is for it to explore deeper themes regarding sex - you have to find a balance between the two.

also, an interesting tidbit - check out The Disinformation Book of Lists.... there's a section on famous writer's that have written erotica (James Joyce, Philip Jose Farmer, and Aleister Crowley to name a few)... I found it fascinating, and you probably would too

All Acting Regiment

06:03 / 09.06.06

Another thread is about writing sex scenes but I guess this thread comes in at a different angle.

Why did you write erotica?

Regrettable Juvenilia

08:54 / 09.06.06

The difference between "erotica" and "pornography" is as spurious and subjective as the difference between "literature" and "fiction", or the difference between "art" and "entertainment" - the former set of descriptors are what some people start calling the latter once they decide they like it enough and want to make it sound important and serious and respectable.

Regrettable Juvenilia

08:55 / 09.06.06

As for why write erotica - well, why write crime fiction, or horror, or science fiction?

09:24 / 09.06.06

I think one of the key differences between erotica and pornography (apart from character development)is that erotica needs to accurately portray the build up of sexual tension.
If you read the stories in porn mags they generally go straight in with the action, whereas the books that I have found erotic generally put alot of effort in describing how the characters ended up having sex. This to me is alot more arousing than the porn mag technique.

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:42 / 09.06.06

No, the difference between "erotica" and "pornography" is as spurious and subjective as the difference between "literature" and "fiction", or the difference between "art" and "entertainment" - the former set of descriptors are what some people start calling the latter once they decide they like it enough and want to make it sound important and serious and respectable.

What you're talking about is the difference between erotica/pornography that for you is good/effective, and erotica/pornography that for you is bad/ineffective.

10:01 / 09.06.06

Or to put it another way, I like erotica, you like porn.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

10:46 / 09.06.06

Hehe. I was gonna post something similar last night, but having seen Fly make the same point elsewhere on the board recently I thought he could probably put it better. And I was right!

12:51 / 09.06.06

Do words mean what I want them to mean? It's interesting to me that a bunch of writers are discussing what two words mean without reference to a dictionary.

Chambers on-line has:

pornography (noun) books, pictures, films, etc designed to be sexually arousing, often offensive owing to their explicit nature

erotica (plural noun) erotic literature or pictures

erotic (adj) arousing; referring or relating to sexual desire, or giving sexual pleasure.

I like the distinction between 'relating to desire' and 'designed to arouse desire'.

Regrettable Juvenilia

13:07 / 09.06.06

Well in that sense it's definitely true that erotica is a broader definition than pornography in terms of content - things can be classed as erotica that aren't intended to arouse - and pornography would appear to be broader in terms of media - that dictionary definiton doesn't allow for erotica to include films, whereas that "etc" means pornography covers a multitude. We're talking specifically about prose fiction here though, are we not?

14:45 / 09.06.06

I've always taken the difference between erotica and pornography to be like the difference between, say, horror and splatter. Both are sub-genres of the same whole with essentially the same content, but one is expressed primarily through mood, the other takes a more visceral (and perhaps mechanical) approach to the subject matter.

Not so sure that holds up as well as I'd like though.

16:15 / 09.06.06

Flyboy makes a good point... it's why I put "erotica," "pornography," and "literature" in quotes

autran brings up an interesting point as well... but the problem lies in the fact that what's widely regarded as the definition for erotica (i.e. intelligent/literate pornography) doesn't quite match up with that definition

"that dictionary definiton doesn't allow for erotica to include fims"
in that regard then, I'd definitely consider the definition flawed...
what about Carolee Schneemann's "Fuses"? I wouldn't consider it pornography, as it's not something I'd watch solely to be aroused. but it is indeed arousing. at the same time it's much greater than that... the style of the film itself serves as an exploration into sexuality, and it's a passionate, meaningful sexuality, not the cheap, emotionless kind found in "pornography."
still, Schneemann herself refers to it as such:
"...I wanted to see if the experience of what I saw would have any correspondence to what I felt-- the intimacy of the lovemaking... And I wanted to put into that materiality of film the energies of the body, so that the film itself dissolves and recombines and is transparent and dense-- as one feels during lovemaking... It is different from any pornographic work that you've ever seen-- that's why people are still looking at it! And there's no objectification or fetishization of the woman."
so it is indeed a tough thing to define... I think a lot of it (as Flyboy implies) has to do merely with people who take sex seriously in their art wanting to distance themselves from the Debbie Does Dallas type stuff, hence refering to it by a different name

"the books that I have found erotic generally put alot of effort in describing how the characters ended up having sex"
hey, what about the plumber stumbling into an apartment full of scantily clad women who need some pipe laid, and a big, muscular man to do it?

"We're talking specifically about prose fiction here though, are we not?"
yeah, I feel as if this thread has been sort of hijacked a bit... should we start a seperate thread about the difference between erotica and pornography in Headshop? (I'd say Books, Writing, and Criticism, but I don't want to limit the conversation to writing... personally I think I have a lot more to add in regards to film)

16:36 / 09.06.06

For everybody: Do we consider Literotica to be entirely pornography? Or does it overlap with erotica a little?

I think erotica is pornography with high art aspirations. It's the attempt. Or is that intent? I'm not sure.

I also think erotica has something to do with aestheticism, a search for sensuous pleasures in art without any didactic purpose. Although that loose idea of aestheticism overlaps nicely with pornography. Perhaps erotica is art for art's sake as opposed to penetration for penetration's sake (this being said with tongue in cheek).

Also, apologies for the stilted tone of the opening post. It makes me sound snootier than I wanted to be. I don't want to write simply erotica or simply pornography. I don't think there's an easy to find distinction. I like writing porn, to be honest. And I also like trying to be stylistically innovative with porn.

Samuel R. Delany, author of Dhalgren, his later career consisted mostly of novels he dubbed porn. He was a staunch defender of porn and embraced its meaning and implications.

That being said, The Mad Man (his 1994 novel about male academics and murder and sex with homeless men) certainly is beautiful in its extremely lurid and disturbing subject matter. Using a haphazard definition of erotica, as stated above (high aspirations), then The Mad Man cannot be erotica. Using the art for art's sake definition, The Mad Man is then erotica because of its skillful examination of the emotional and physical consequences of anonymous sex with New York's homeless. It tries to find the limits of academic research, as one character parallels a dead philosopher's quest for...? I don't know. I haven't finished it yet.

As I work through this post, I'm finding my thoughts on it to be jumbled and hard to sort through. I will return.

but one is expressed primarily through mood, the other takes a more visceral (and perhaps mechanical) approach to the subject matter

It's interesting that you used the word mechanical. That's a criticism I often think of when watching or reading or consuming bland pornography. This is merely mechanical and They are merely going through the motions. But I agree that I'm not sure about the distinction.

16:21 / 10.06.06

I like writing porn, to be honest. And I also like trying to be stylistically innovative with porn.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd definitely read it, Matt, if you were so minded as to post some of your material on here.

22:18 / 10.06.06

Because I feel that this thread has been derailed (albeit by a fascinating topic worth discussing further), I've created another thread in the Head Shop where the discussion of the differences between pornography and erotica can continue.

Danke.

05:17 / 11.06.06

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd definitely read it, Matt, if you were so minded as to post some of your material on here.

Well, my post makes it sound like I'm being Pynchon with porn, but really, I'm just being outside the box of porn stylistics. Or maybe I'm not.

I'll post some if it's okay with the dark shadowy cabal of moderators. And if other people want to read it. I've already received PMs for it.

By the by, it's going to take me a smidgen of time. First of all, I can't access Literotica from my normal computer. Secondly, I have to finishing editing the next piece, which I think is much better and much more... fantastical than the first.

Disco is My Class War

02:15 / 12.06.06

Samuel R. Delany, author of Dhalgren, his later career consisted mostly of novels he dubbed porn. He was a staunch defender of porn and embraced its meaning and implications.

Threadrot, but you're talking about Delany as if he's dead. And he's still very much alive, AFAIK. He IS a staunch defender of porn!

05:07 / 13.06.06

First and presently the only submission to Literotica. If you're a member or if you like it, please rate it or leave a public comment. That would be appreciated.

Currently working on a real gem. I'm going to devote more time to erotica and less time to more literary pursuits. My modernist spy novel does not have a good future anymore thanks to porn. Mmmm.

All Acting Regiment

11:09 / 13.06.06

I'm going to devote more time to erotica and less time to more literary pursuits.

Mutually exclusive?

13:12 / 13.06.06

In my first sci fi novel (unpublished) I found I was writing a lot of smut into it. The finished product is not pure erotica but it is more edgy than a standard romance novel with enough touches of BDSM to land me in the smut category. Though I'd label it a future noir fairy-tale , which will hopefully get me a devoted audience of three people. ;P

I do get a bit cringy with the idea of my 'rents or in-laws reading it, but with proper warning I think they would steer clear. My dad is going to sneak out and buy it off a shelf and then be embarrassed to talk to me about it.

I didn't intend to write smut/erotica at all, but finding that I have I'm comfortable with it as an element of my plots so long as it isn't the entire focus.

An unexpected side effect occurred when one of my proof readers wanted to engage with me for BDSM IRL because of the book. Out of all things I've heard about people responding to a fictional work I never expected a critical reader to proposition me. It was rather disturbing at the time and I wonder if it is a problem for writers in the genre...

17:55 / 14.06.06

By the way, my submission to Literotica has a 4.60 rating out of 5. Just so you know.

19:48 / 14.06.06

It was fabulous. I liked the realism of it a lot.

I was going to ask a question here, but then considered it might be a spoiler.

00:53 / 15.06.06

Finished and edited and submitted the next one.

All Acting Regiment

17:18 / 15.06.06

Yeah Matt, can we discuss your piece on here or should we start another thread?

19:26 / 15.06.06

Right here's fine, I guess. I'm no mod, though, so it's up to them.

A day later, after submitting the newest piece, I'm having some doubts. It's a little weird piece, with a bizarre shift in tone at the halfway point that I didn't notice until I submitted it. Shit.

19:47 / 15.06.06

I'm sorry I asked such a dumb question of you. I've been feeling very badly about it.
So hopefully to make up for it here's a far less dumb question:

What prompted you to write a story for that site in particular and how did it impact your style in writing for a specific audience?

05:07 / 25.06.06

The newest submission has been approved and has received a 3.6x rating. Not great. I'm not as pleased with it as my other submission. You can read the story here, and I would appreciate a rating and a public comment, if possible. Thanks.

12:35 / 20.07.06

I actually like the second story better. It darker and grittier, and seems to say more than just "huh, huh, these folks are gettin' it on." I don't know if it was your intention, but I read a bit of social commentery here, involving issues of gender relations and consent (especially where drugs and alchohol are involved).

14:09 / 22.03.07

So it's been, like, forever, and this story that's been gestating in my head for months has finally been written, submitted, approved and is available for public consumption. I'm really proud of this story. It's about two male best friends who are about to be separated and how they come together. I wanted to make a really tender and emotional story about friendship blossoming into love. I imagined that after the sex, the story continues, becoming more sad and heartbreaking, but at the very end... a beginning.
Please read and comment.
As I say, I'm really proud of this.

22:09 / 26.03.07

wow. that was really...affecting. I think you've captured a certain relationship type incredibly well. You're right to feel proud of this