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Art 101

 
 
All Acting Regiment
08:35 / 08.06.06
So I figured as I've read a few books I might have some answers to some questions about art, and probably some other people will have better ones. Either way, this is a bit different to the "Stupid Questions" thread- I see this as being more in depth.
 
 
chaated
11:26 / 08.06.06
Was Eva Hesse important?
Was she a genius?
Was she a fraud?
 
 
astrojax69
03:03 / 09.06.06
same questions about pollock!

australian's national gallery paid millions back in the 70's for 'blue poles' and it is just a bunch of paint dribbled onto a large canvas. even the colours aren't nice (that blue and that orange really don't work, jackson...)

what is it with him. and hirst's new idea to encrust a skull with diamonds. sheesh!
 
 
All Acting Regiment
05:25 / 09.06.06
same questions about pollock!

australian's national gallery paid millions back in the 70's for 'blue poles' and it is just a bunch of paint dribbled onto a large canvas. even the colours aren't nice (that blue and that orange really don't work, jackson...)


Pollack's important because he was the most extreme so far in the tradition of doing weird stuff within painting.

That's what all the modern painters were after, at some level- breaking away from the renaissance model, trying out radical new ideas, be it Picasso with his forms (see Les Demoiselles d'Avignon) or the German Expressionists with their subject matter (see Munch's The Scream) or Legba with his gross overgeneralisations, the aim being to fuck shit up in various ways- some were more political than others.

Here's some examples so you can see the progression. Here's the Arnolfini portrait, 1434, Jan van Eyck. Roughly speaking, it's formal, concerened with making a show of how successful the merchant is (he's a respectable pillar of bourgeois society: he has a wife, a big mirror, a big'un house with glass windows and a little dog).



But now, here's that Picasso picture.



Sorry it's so small, but you can see even with no knowledge of context the jaggedness, the staring eyes, and the frightening erotic poses. When I read up on it, I found out that one the faces was expressly designed to resmble an African mask- it would have been seen as unforgiveable "savagery" by the art world at the time. Also, the women were prostitutes, an unacceptable subject matter.

Here's the Munch:



Terrifying, isn't it? The landscape doesn't follow the rules, it's like a bad dream.

The above tradition could roughly be called transgressive, and goes on through the Surrealists (I'm generalising so much the whole army's decorated) into Bacon, but Pollack and the abstract expressionists (note- very different to the German expressionists) sort of trace a sudden backstep back to the late 19th century French artists who covered what The Shock of the New calls "the Landscape of Pleasure", such as Seurat and Manet.





Now this stuff is, in a lot of ways, less violently oppositional than the Picasso and the Munch. It's pleasant, soft scenes, with a nice light nad pastel colours. On one level they're bourgeois pleasure pieces- but as you can see it's still a lot more free/decadant and loose than the renaissance stuff and shares this with P 'n' M- it's just transcendental rather than transgressive.

So Pollack and co, when they made their abstract pieces, were sort of doing something simmilar, but minimalist- going away form any kind of figurative aspect, simply bathing a canvas in a block of fuzzy colour, maybe with subtle, warm gradations- it's humming in a calm temple rather than screaming in the jungle, which, post war, post-holocaust, might have seemed to some a better place for art to go.

So we've now got two very, very rough concepts that aren't so much generic as taxonomic- "figurative transgressive" and "abstract transcendental", both trying in their own ways to break what Barthes called the "myths" and get us to true nature.

Then Pollack, for his most famous pieces, the "action" paintings, creates abstract work that is in a manner violent and transgressive beyond transcendental, yet in a deeply pure way beyond figurative- manic physical action, recorded in paint, "abstract transgressive". He didn't sit down on a stool and paint it- he leapt around to a soundtrack of free jazz. Some could say the paintings represent the most serious and glaring break from convention yet.



Now, obviously, that doesn't mean it's all at the same quality, and yeah, people pay more money for famous art than they pay attention to famous art, but I hope that answers your question as to why he is Important.
 
 
unbecoming
20:47 / 10.06.06
hi i'm new but i love talking about Art.
pollock perhaps also represents the high water mark of modernist painting whereby the Art object itself is prioritised as the autonomous expression of a unitary authorial self.
This is reflected in the interest of the abstract expressionists in attempting to move beyond subject matter and narrative in painting and moving into the realm of pure "aesthetic emotions" as i think Clemence Greenberg would say.
As i see it, this rejection of subject matter was to enable the paintings to be enjoyed autonomously, free from prior knowledge of the art world or the vocabulary of painting. In this,, the Abstract expressionists were attempting to persue abstraction to the point where a unitary and essential form of emotional communication is taking place, to apprehend a kind of universal human language or mode of expression.
I think you could link this to structural theory (critical meta-language) but i would need to do more reading for that.

of course all this is kind of frowned upon by (thinks twice) "post modern" art which is often intertextual, self referential and process based, in contrast.
 
 
chaated
19:19 / 19.06.06
uh ... guys ... Eva Hesse?

Seriously though, I know we're going low-snark, but those whole things about Ab-Ex you guys were saying is completely old news, it's something anybody who took Art Appreciation as an elective has discussed to the point of being so over it.

What are you opinions on the modern state of art, post 1980, or more importantly what do you think about Basquiat? (I agree with the essay "Requiem for a Featherweight" by Robert Hughes (?))
 
 
Jack Vincennes
19:45 / 19.06.06
it's something anybody who took Art Appreciation as an elective has discussed to the point of being so over it.

To be fair, chaated, not everyone has done that; the question was asked, and Legba and Hester answered it to a degree of detail that I at least wouldn't have been able to put in. It sounds like you have strong opinions and already know about art, so how about starting a thread on what you're interested in? I am interested to hear what you have to say about Basquiat [and] the essay "Requiem for a Featherweight" by Robert Hughes because I don't know much at all about Basquiat and I'd like to hear what other people think and know about his work.

Really, we have the rest of this forum for the not basic questions, and I'd like to see them asked and expanded on in their own threads -there is a value, I think quite a lot, in discussing the basic questions here, and actaully sharing what we already know.
 
 
chaated
12:58 / 20.06.06
Sorry about that, I'll try to keep it 101 and start other threads for other things. I guess I just had a different idea of what the average art knowledge was on this board. My bad. In my defense, I was an art major

Oh yeah, but I think Basquiat was waaay cooler before he became a pawn of the art establishment. To be continued ...
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:48 / 20.06.06
Seriously though, I know we're going low-snark, but those whole things about Ab-Ex you guys were saying is completely old news, it's something anybody who took Art Appreciation as an elective has discussed to the point of being so over it.

Seriously though, I know we're bring low snark, but the group "people who took art appreciation as an elective", compared to "all the people who might be reading this", is very very small.

What are you opinions on the modern state of art, post 1980

This isn't my best area but I think that as a force for social criticism/change it's become something that can be labelled as "for the rich liberals"- that is, stuff like Hirst's shark isn't shocking "the establishment"- our always-already-assumed-to-be-true mythical moral/aesthetic values- in the same way as Ducamps's urinal did.

It's preaching to the converted, in other words. Most people can now say that it's just typical of Shoreditch/Hoxton/Holywood/SF rather than taking it as a bodyblow. Add to this the fact that frankly someone like Hirst doesn't seem to be all that interested in the political side of it.

There are exceptions, and I think people within this model who break this are Tracey Emin- because she was a woman, she got a lot more people up in arms about her bed piece. Which reaction I think says a lot about society. We have a thread on this somewhere but I can'y find- how the male creative madman is celebrated but the woman equivalent is looked down on.

I think we really need to look outside the model of the "western artist" now- it worked up until 1980 (another of my horrible generalisations, sorry) after which I think it started running to seed as the conservative forces abandoned the "art world" to the freaks and stood outside, laughing smugly.

I think the current of shock that you can (very) roughly trace through Rabelais into Jarry and into Dada/Surrealism really went into pop music in the latter half of the 20th century- I think Warhol saw this and played some part in the alchemical change- this is not to discredit visual artists but the simple fact is that pop music touched a lot more people and was just a much more accessible site for rebellion and resistance- Salvador Dali loved it and made record covers.

But the visual arts are still just as important, but we need to look at a different model- I think areas like Graffiti are brilliant today, including celebrity types such as Banksy but also- and primarily- the stuff made by people who aren't "artists"- kids writing and spraying on walls, Parkour, stuff like that, which the internet is playing a wonderful part in organising and promoting.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
18:40 / 22.06.06
Anyway, more on Basquiat? I'm interested.
 
 
sleazenation
19:08 / 22.06.06
Robert Hughes once referred to Robert Crumb as the Bruegel of the second half of the 20th century.

What I want to know is which Bruegel was he referring to...
 
 
unbecoming
20:59 / 22.06.06
I'd actually like to hear more on what the current opinion on pollack is just now.





i hate being out of date.
 
 
TeN
05:28 / 24.06.06
can anyone recomend some literature on Situationism?
everything I've ever tried to read is horribly self-referential (I feel like you can't read any Situationist book without having read already every other Situationist book). is there anything that really gives a good overview for the beginner?

oh, and I'm also interested in learning about Fluxus and Neoism as well... looking for the same sort of "beginner's guide"
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:31 / 25.06.06
Robert Hughes once referred to Robert Crumb as the Bruegel of the second half of the 20th century.

What I want to know is which Bruegel was he referring to...


Yeah, there are four Bruegels. This page has a family tree.

Most of their stuff was peasant scenes, carnivalesque stuff, farting, drinking and so on- I'm not entirely sure it matters which Bruegel though at a guess I'd say it was the eldest one- I'd imagine their shared subject matter was what Hughes was talking about and it makes sense. See also Burgess's defense of Burroughs as a modern-day Swift.

can anyone recomend some literature on Situationism?
everything I've ever tried to read is horribly self-referential (I feel like you can't read any Situationist book without having read already every other Situationist book). is there anything that really gives a good overview for the beginner?

oh, and I'm also interested in learning about Fluxus and Neoism as well... looking for the same sort of "beginner's guide"


This may come as a cop-out but, seeing as I too need to look up more about these, it's hard to go wrong with Wikipedia.
 
 
unbecoming
15:06 / 25.06.06
it's hard to go wrong with Wikipedia.

I was going to say this as well.
I think your best bet with the situationists is to spend some time reading around the subject on Wikipedia and then give The Revolution of Everyday Life a try. Its not exactly an Easy read but it makes a wee bit mnore sense than the Society of the Spectacle.

I would probably say that any book on neoism is going to be primarily worthless due to the very nature of the movement (if it indeed does exist). just read the Wiki and invent your own answers.

Not sure about Fluxus but why not dive straight in and watch some of the films over Here, on UbuWeb.
 
 
*
00:00 / 26.06.06
...oh, I know, I'll ask Barbeloids!

So I have a very faaaaaaavorite t-shirt (pic here) and I am told it appears to be inspired by the work of some artist whose name I did not write down and now cannot find out. Anyone have a good guess who it is?
 
 
Jackie Susann
01:40 / 26.06.06
It kind of depends what aspect of Situationist stuff you're interested in. For their politics, try Jean Barrot's 'Critique of the Situationist International' (should be easily google-a-ble, and is included in Stewart Home's situationist reader). For their theory more broadly, try Sadie Plant's book The most radical gesture. For their aesthetics, try Greil Marcus' Lipstick traces. For their place in the avant garde tradition, and also Fluxus and Neoism, try Home's The assault on culture - although there's a fair bit of axe-to-grind, it still has a lot of useful basic information.

If there's another particular angle you're interested in, let me know and I can try and recommend something else.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:59 / 26.06.06
That shirt looks rather like a map of Dante's inferno, but something rather tells me it isn't. Hmm.
 
 
babazuf
16:36 / 26.06.06
same questions about pollock!

The first abstract impressionist Pollock was genius. The next million or so were (in my humble opinion) complete rubbish and illustrated nothing but a lack of creativity on his part.

"You're doing away with the artifice of form as a means of expressing a pure and unadulterated emotion? Yeah, I know. We got it the first time."
 
 
EmmaFenelon
14:32 / 27.06.06
What's amazing is Eva Hesse is just being ignored in all of this discussion, mirroring the arts world male centric tendancies. Her work is female and human. She works with materials that don't last, looking inward, as women so often do. It is a great shame she died so young but even so she left a body of work that is going to influence and inform all the generations of artists to come
 
 
chaated
17:04 / 27.06.06
Preach it Emma!

I'm a dude, and I think Eva Hesse rocked the Casbah. I also think that modern art (of which she is a great example) has a bad rap with the regular middle class types as being too stuffy or hard to understand, but with minimal explaining, anyone can see that her work is great.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
20:53 / 27.06.06
See, I didn't know anything about Eva Hesse, that's why I didn't contribute.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
03:27 / 28.06.06
Which is to say that "What's amazing is Eva Hesse is just being ignored in all of this discussion, mirroring the arts world male centric tendancies" sounds rather like a dig at the people who have contributed.

Forgive me if it's not. It is an absolutely valid point to make about the art world. However, if the question had been about Hannah Hoch for example or the woman who made the fur covered cup, please be assured that I'd have come up with something.

I also think that modern art (of which she is a great example) has a bad rap with the regular middle class types as being too stuffy or hard to understand, but with minimal explaining, anyone can see that her work is great.

Hmm. Is that from an American perspective? Just because from my English POV it seems rather that every middle-class family in this country goes to art galleries to see modern art and has big coffee table books about it without really engaging with it except as part of an "intellectual" demographic (I'm as guilty of this as anyone).

So you have, for example, the family with, say, Andy Warhol prints on the kitchen wall or VU records in dad's collection who are yet opposed to gay marriage (/queer activism) and roundly conservative- this being not hugely common but definitely extant- which sounds like a different thing to what you're talking about.
 
 
TeN
05:18 / 28.06.06
here's a good one:
what's the real story behind Tristan Tzara's offer to create a poem by pulling random words from a hat and the supposed outrage in the surrealist community resulting in his expulsion by Breton?
did it actually happen?
I can't find very much information on it at all, save for a few sound bites here and there, and some of the accounts differ (some sources, for instance, say that Breton only "attempted" to expel him)
I also find it somewhat hard to believe that Tzara, the "inventor" of Dada, would cause "outrage" among a group of experimental/revolutionary artists. I suppose such a Dadaist move might not have been favorable with the more "constructive" surrealists, but "outrage"? And Tzara and Breton were long time friends and collaborators... had hostility grown between them? I know Breton expelled Dali, but that had to do with his politics.
so, can anyone point me to a more detailed account of the incident? even a mere paragraph would do.
 
 
unbecoming
10:35 / 06.07.06
don't know anything about that i'm afraid but I would like to pose a question of my own:

What are international perceptions of the scottish Art scene? Is it even seen as a coherent "scene" at all? and if so what are its traits?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
10:47 / 06.07.06
By many accounts, Andre Breton was a cruel pope, fond of excommunications...he got rid of Dali partly for his politics but also because he didn't like anything to do with arses or shit. If he was willing to do something as "out of character" for the surrealists as that, I guess he was willing to excom Tzara. I'll try and find more info.
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
18:28 / 17.07.06
wow, coming into this discussion late... i went to the big eva hesse retrospective at the jewish museum recently and it was a real treat. i especially admire the openness of her structures and how her forms are organic without being schlocky.

there's definitely a link between the ab ex movement and structuralism, specifically surrounding the issue of how investigating the nature of something will somehow reveal its Truth with a capital T. just as the structuralists argued that language is a set of rules and our job is to figure out those rules, abstract expressionists, spearheaded by the critic clement greenberg, argued that the only viable painting is one that explored the properties of the paint and the canvas itself. he was a proponent of pollock he saw pollock's work as being about nothing else but the paint and its nature. he was exploring the rules of painting in order to understand its deeper meaning.

then the deconstructionists and pop artists came along and demonstrated it all to be bullshit. personally, i'm a much bigger fan of proto-por artists like johns and rauschenberg than i am of pollock. i especially love r's erased de kooning drawing

my favorite artist since 1980 is felix gonzalez-torres. i admire the way he synthesizes the aesthetic and the conceptual, and how he's not afraid of romance yet at the same time doesn't subscribe to a totalizing and masculinist truth.
 
 
The Ghost of Tom Winter
09:25 / 23.04.07
I was wondering what the copyright policies are when making collages. I've been doing a lot of scanning from magazine photos and combining them with others. Could I get sued if I sell? Or even post these somewhere?

Also, there is a guy who did a lot of collage in the (I want to say) 20s or 40s. He used the Lucky Strike logo a lot. Anyone know his name?
 
 
unbecoming
10:18 / 23.04.07
Kurt Schwitters?

the collage thing is a grey area unfortunately.... i think the general rule relies on how much the original has been altered.
 
 
The Ghost of Tom Winter
10:27 / 23.04.07
Ray Johnson is the guys name. I saw How to Draw a Bunny some years ago and loved the work but could never remember his name. Google is like an elaborate riddle you must crack to find what you need.


But Schwitters seems really interesting too.
 
 
unbecoming
10:27 / 23.04.07
or, thinking about it, you might mean Larry Rivers.
 
  
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