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How to be less of a disgusting Western tourist in Thailand

  
 
Disco is My Class War
02:50 / 07.06.06
Hello people. So I've got this grant from my uni, right, and the grant says that I shall do some 'fieldwork' in Bangkok for a month. I'm going in just under two weeks. It's an amazing opportunity in terms of work, and it's also, unbelievably, the first overseas trip I've ever taken as an adult. I'll also have time to do some sight-seeing around Bangkok and maybe ten days or so down south around Phuket and Ko Samui. So far, in terms of trip planning, I've been contacting people involved in social research on precarious labour in Bangkok, lots of HIV/AIDS prevention orgs and people doing advocacy work around gender and sexuality. That's kind of what I'm interested in, outside the main fieldwork agenda, which is visiting and collecting interviews from workers in gender reassignment surgery clinics.

It feels really weird and complex to be visiting a country that's so much of a tourist haunt, and where the economic divisions between Thais and foreigners (and all the power relations that come with that) are so unequal. I'm trying to learn some Thai language before I go, and am also avoiding staying in Silom/Patpong where most of the tourists go. But still... Anyone have any tips on how to be polite, respectful, well-mannered in day to day interactions in Bangkok?

Also, I know hardly anything about the things one should see in terms of tourist stuff even if one wants to refuse the stereotypical tourist areas. And I know next to nothing about places to hang out -- somewhere to find a good coffee, for example. Anyone have any tips?

Lastly, I'm going to the beach for a week or so. Since it's monsoon season and apparently rains less on the Gulf of Thailand than the Andaman Sea, I'm planning to fly to Phuket and catch the bus across the Ithsmus to Ko Samui or one of the islands around Samui. Does anyone know of good places to go, or stay, there? Quiet places that aren't a) full of dumb beachbound tourists or b) hippies? (I hate hippies. I know I'm going to encounter many, but I still hate 'em.) Any tips would be very much appreciated.
 
 
the permuted man
14:32 / 07.06.06
This seems like a bait thread, but here's my tiny advice:

I think the intention to to be polite, respectful, well-mannered in day to day interactions is good and, if genuine and you act on it, will serve you well. The intention to be less of a disgusting Western tourist...less so.

No matter the circumstances, you are a foreignor, staying a very short time, with little to no previous knowledge of the language or locale. That doesn't make you a bad person, but it will in the eyes of everyone there make you a tourist. You will be considered a disgusting Western tourist by many people, including other tourists, irrespect of your behavior, but certainly no thanks to the behavior of previous Western tourists.

Avoiding stereotypical tourist areas is a personal choice, but while much of their attraction lies in their noticeability and popularity, they often had good reasons to become stereotypical tourist areas in the first place. It sounds a bit snobbish to me, but perhaps considering the slant of this thread, such an environment might cause you to do or say things you wish to avoid. In which case it's a very good decision. Personally, I avoid these things when I travel because I never leave my home anyway. If I can hardly be arsed to grab a drink with a friend, what makes being abroad any different. Innevitably I end up at internet cafes or in my room reading.

Anyway, I think you should hold to being polite, respectful, well-mannered in day to day interactions and all will be well. You know, keep an open mind (perhaps even to hippies and tourists), and enjoy yourself. Are you going by yourself? Otherwise, if there's a whole group, I'd say don't be afraid to hang out and do what they're doing (even if they are a constant reminder of your self-loathed Western tourism).
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:36 / 07.06.06
What makes you think this is a bait thread? I'm sure it isn't.
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
14:55 / 07.06.06
Mister Disco, a mate of mine worked in HIV/AIDS research in Thailand for nearly a year I think, PM me and I'll see if I can dig out her contact details.
 
 
alas
14:56 / 07.06.06
Mainly out of curiousity, how do you define "hippies"? In my experience, the term is overused--often means anyone sporting a tie-dye t-shirt... Do you roughly mean Westerners who have dropped out and taken their trust funded life to a developing country where the living--esp. the sex & drugs--is cheap?
 
 
the permuted man
15:07 / 07.06.06
What makes you think this is a bait thread?

Maybe it's not. But it's the kind of thread I would make to incite debate rather than because I actually wanted an answer to the question. To me, the topic could be "Oh, those disgusting Western tourists...I'm sure glad I'm not one!"
 
 
*
17:56 / 07.06.06
Disco's on the level, subnaut. His topic may have the effect of inciting debate, but I am certain it's not intended to. I read his post as a request for advice in avoiding compounding the negative social and economic effects of tourism, which has less to do with basic politeness or self-loathing than you seem to think.
 
 
the permuted man
18:23 / 07.06.06
What are the negative economic effects of tourism?
 
 
Ganesh
18:45 / 07.06.06
What are the negative economic effects of tourism?

In Thailand's case, possibly the enormous skewing of the economy toward prostitution, which then has knock-on effects in terms of the viable careers open to young women. Where the islands are concerned, the increasing dependence on foreign trade has finally led to Koh Samui selling off huge chunks to Western developers, so the Thai people living there see their home gradually disappearing under a sea of backpacks, with no social gain to themselves.

I think it is pertinent to point out that simply being farang and wealthy enough to fly there makes one a rich Western tourist. There are (hopefully) ways to be less "disgusting" about it, but it's important not to delude oneself that, by local standards, one is disgustingly wealthy.
 
 
*
19:00 / 07.06.06
A pdf giving a brief overview

Arguments from a case study in Burma:
Money which is generated by tourism, will probably provide
few if any benefits for the people of the country. While a few
jobs in hotels and guide agencies may offer an income to some
privileged people, the majority of the income will benefit SLORC
which needs ever increasing amounts of money to keep its growing
military machine equipped and loyal. At this point, tourism of
any sort will most likely help feed this vast military machine.
Linked to this concern is also the concern that tourism will
rapidly destroy cultural values of this Buddhist country. Almost
everywhere tourism has become a dominant economic business, the
culture and values of the people being visited must be exploited
to the fullest in order to insure that the visitors keep coming.
This has direct implications for the women and children of Burma
who face becoming the new target of the international
prostitution racket. Burma Issues Newsletter, April 1994

Another pdf offering the author's view on how tourism might be "done right"

I think that if we have a debate in this thread, it may seem to others that the debate was the point of the thread all along, and Disco's real intentions, as far as I can tell, will be obscured. I'd like to suggest that if we need to have a debate about this, we start a new thread for it. Thoughts?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
19:12 / 07.06.06
Wasn't it in Thailand where the Lingam ceremony was banned? They had a large phallus that they'd push through the streets as part of the fertility festival, and, this being unpalatable to American and Japanese tourists, it was banned by the local authorities. It may have been Thailand, it may have been Java, I'm not sure.
 
 
the permuted man
19:13 / 07.06.06
I have no debate nor advice.

I thought Disco disliked a type of person (hippies and tourists), when in fact (if the defence is true) ze dislikes a practice. With good reason.
 
 
*
19:56 / 07.06.06
I thought Disco disliked a type of person (hippies and tourists)
Well, that may also be true... I think that's a side issue though.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
21:10 / 07.06.06
I think a distrust of what you might roughly call "trustafarians" is fair enough, at least from what I've seen, in light of the fact that a lot of rich white kids see the world as a playground- they're not all Michael Palin, that much is certain.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
02:43 / 08.06.06
subnaut, you're probably right in that it's ever so slightly hypocritical to want to avoid being what I will be -- a white person and a farang, disgustingly rich no matter how I'm relatively poor at home, and thus hardly different to any other 'tourist'. Notice I said 'less' of a tourist, than not one at all. This is not a bait thread, but a sincere request for information/advice. Evidently I should have asked in a different way. And hey, I don't mind about a little (or a lot of) debate -- but I have no idea what position subnaut is mapping out for me here.

Avoiding stereotypical tourist areas is a personal choice, but while much of their attraction lies in their noticeability and popularity, they often had good reasons to become stereotypical tourist areas in the first place. It sounds a bit snobbish to me, but perhaps considering the slant of this thread, such an environment might cause you to do or say things you wish to avoid.

I'd really like to know what you mean by this.

alas, yeah, that's pretty much what I meant about 'hippies'. (I'm hippie spawn and spent some of my earliest 20's doing very hippie-ish things, so I don't hate 'em in an incomprehending way, more in a slightly sympathetic familiar way.) I also meant the sense in which people can visit South-East Asia wanting to have an 'authentic' experience of the 'spirituality' and 'exoticism' of the place.

I'd be happy for this thread to continue as it's going, but maybe it could be moved to the Headshop and the thread title could be changed? Perhaps I'll start a new thread, sans political questions, just about places to go.

And Happy Dave, PM me!! Thanks ever so.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
03:39 / 08.06.06
Also, I get that it's not possible to offer a solution to this dilemma, because the dilemma is inescapable. But some clarifications, mostly for subnaut's benefit but for the benefit of continuing the discussion too:

I'm aware that the spurious distinctions between 'tourist' (supposedly crass, filthy rich, Contiki-style, sex tourism style) and 'traveller' (backpacker, 'doing it rough', etc) may only entrench different styles of exploiting local populations for a good time. Perhaps this is what is meant by not wanting to be a tourist, while not being able to avoid being one.

I'm not going on any group tours, I'm going to be alone. The research work I'm doing involves, ironically enough, an exploration, and probably a critique, of (Australian) tourist practices relating to transgender stuff (that's my research website there, to give an idea). These particular tourist practices are easily things I myself would engage in if I had the money and the desire. This is research which hasn't been done, as far as I know, and there's a whole discussion I could initiate about the ethics/politics of the research, but I've done that elsewhere already.

And about 'alternative tourism', I'm kind of with John Hutnyk (referenced in the article entity linked to). I think the concept of doing a bit of 'voluntary work' that makes one feel like one has paid one's karmic debt for visiting a place can be quite pernicious. It does entrench bad power relationships -- there's a whole developing critique of medical tourism (ie, Doctors Without Borders and related projects) that questions the help that anyone can do when they might spend six weeks in a village, not having the language, and not necessarily understanding the 'thick' context of healthcare problems in that cultural/political/geographical/economic location.

At times, the desire not to place myself in the position of a 'tourist' is so intense I'd rather not go at all. I'm anti-capitalism, anti-colonialism. And yet at the same time I feel this sense of satisfaction whenever I remember that the exchange rate means I'll be able to afford ridiculously cheap accommodation, a cheap week on a lovely beach, some cheap new electronic toys and maybe a cheap new tailored suit. I kinda feel like since I can't avoid taking advantage of the capitalist dicates that mean my money is worth more there, I may as well take advantage of it. Because here in Australia, I'm just on the poverty line. Maybe that's fucked up. But I'm going to interrogate my own practices just as much as I interrogate anyone else's.

I also think waaaaaaaay too much about this stuff. And this thread is triggering me to feel even more weird and scared about the whole deal.
 
 
grant
12:11 / 08.06.06
1. Try to stop feeling weird (but don't forget how it feels). I find feeling weird interferes with my ability to deal with human beings as human beings.

Tourist areas -- resorts -- always make me feel weird. (I live in one of America's top resort areas, so when I wind up in one abroad, I have an unusual degree of self-loathing. The slack-jawed bastards on their buses.)

2. You have a grant (hee!) and are hooking up with locals "involved in social research on precarious labour" and gender-issue advocates? They're going to know more about things that locals do than anyone on this board. Ask them what they do for fun. You'll probably have an experience of Thailand none of us would be able to match.

(I should add that most gracious hosts might try to amuse you with things they assume you'd find amusing, rather than things they themselves find amusing, which is something to watch out for -- those assumptions could lead to loud neon beer factories rather than quiet rooms with jasmine tea. Or vice versa.)

Are you staying in hotels or in student digs or in someone's house? That's going to affect everything.

3. You're doing research on transgender tourism? Wow. That'll complicate things. To a certain degree, it seems to me that you'll have to embrace the experience.

-----

I've never been to Thailand, but my sister lived on one of the kohs for a year. Samui, I think. I got the impression it was more of a haven for the New Age retreat/high colonics & tropical juice/oh look at this gorgeous spirituality variety of tourist than the beer-fueled creatures from the id along other beaches.

Here's the irony embraced by the Lonely Planet crowd (and I have to admit, I'm totally an LP fan) -- the closer you get to living like a local person, the more wealthy the exchange rates will make you. Local price for objects/meals is always less than tourist price. If there's a bargaining-based market culture (I'd assume there is in Thailand, but you never know), locals are going to be more skilled at bargaining. So the more you can be accepted as/act in the role of a local, the less things tend to cost, and the further your money can go.

There's a relevant riff in Mama Lola (a Vodou ethnography I'm in the middle of reading) about attitudes to wealth -- in this case, it was an American anthropologist traveling with a Haitian-American woman in Haiti. This is going to be a muddled summary, but basically the American tried to pretend she wasn't fantastically wealthy compared to the people she encountered/lived with, while the Haitian-American kept accepting all this bizarre adulation and favors. Turned out the Haitian-American was positioning herself much more adeptly to be able to help out & make a difference by entering that transactional web - you do me these favors, I'm happy to repay your favors with this, while the American got stuck offering charity to people she'd been dealing with as friends/family, which everyone found incredibly awkward and dehumanizing. I suppose I bring that up to point out that there's a parallel economy to the one based on money that operates on favors, friendliness and social obligations.

(As a note, also, this can be the basis of some fairly strange scams. The classic backpacker example: somehow you'll find yourself in a bar at a table full of newfound friends who're smiling unctuously while sticking you with the tab for the bottles of white lightning they've been ordering all night. This happened to me in Sri Lanka, but is pretty well known everywhere -- it's part of the same parallel economy, I think.)
 
 
Not in the Face
12:49 / 08.06.06
It sounds like you have got a pretty good handle on the matter Mister Disco. [DisclaimerI went as an actual tourist to Thailand last year. It was great although I still had some concerns exactly as you expressed].

My first thought is that both feelings can be true and valid - caution at not wanting to contribute to exploitation of the Thai people but also a sense of excitement/postiveness of being able to have a lifestyle beyond what you can normally afford.

My biggest tip is to use the Barbelith Venn diagram to posting as a guide for interacting with Thai's, or well anyone. You probably will say something thats considered stupid or offensive simply because its not your culture and such a thing is inevitable. I've found that people are quite forgiving of one or the other (stupid or offensive) but not both at the same time and its quite easy with some forethought, which you are clearly doing, to avoid.

Also any embarassment you have over wealth discrepancies is probably yours alone. The Thais I talked to were similar to many people I met when I lived in China that they understood that I, as a westerner, had greater wealth and were generally fine with this on a one-one level because they themselves saw that wealth - and the higher standard of living it bought, as desirable. They also saw attempts to try and deny it (for instance by dressing in 'native' attire) as pretty ridiculous and insulting. I think this is the thing for individual travellers that falls most clearly into stupid and offensive, maintaining a pretence of some sort of parity when all know it to be a lie. Doesn't mean you have to flash your cash, but I do think you won't get the level of respect and attention you need for a series of interviews/research material if you try and martyr yourself over self-perceived issues of wealth.

Also you are going to Bangkok, which is quite a wealthy city, so you might find that the disparities aren't as huge as you imagine on a university grant, and you are going there to do actual work and not gawk at the sites. Again i think the people you meet will understand the difference.

As to food and accommodation I can only recommend almost everywhere for the food as its great and for accommodation to try and get as close to where you will be doing your day-day research or somewhere linked by the train system even if it means being in a 'wealthy' area. Bangkok is a big, sprawling city and the traffic makes walking one of the easiest ways to get around.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:20 / 08.06.06
I don't travel much, so this could be bullshit, but it seems to me that realising that you are, to some degree, a disgusting Western tourist is half the battle won.

And have a great time, btw.
 
 
the permuted man
15:32 / 08.06.06
Avoiding stereotypical tourist areas is a personal choice, but while much of their attraction lies in their noticeability and popularity, they often had good reasons to become stereotypical tourist areas in the first place. It sounds a bit snobbish to me, but perhaps considering the slant of this thread, such an environment might cause you to do or say things you wish to avoid.

I'd really like to know what you mean by this.

I just meant like if you were in Paris and refused to go to the Louvre because it was such a tourist attraction (sounds a bit snobbish). Whereas if you refused to go because you feared seeing another tourist might drive you to strike them or curse at them (sounds perfectly reasonable).

Also, apologies for my misjudgment and falsely suggesting this might be a bait thread. I see you are trying to make the best out of a possibly impossibly (heh) delicate situation.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
17:50 / 08.06.06
Say only nice things about the King. 7 years in gaol for those who don't! Might be hard to fathom but the thais seem genuinely to revere their King, Bhumipol, in a way Brits and Aussies might not connect with. Pictures of him and Queen Sirikit everywhere.

And watch that you don't innocently touch the upper half of someone's body, and never the head! If you do, apologise immediately. The thais think the body is sacred at the head level and descends to the dirty bit at the bottom. This means you have to be careful not to point your feet at people when you sit. And, in temples, be especially careful never to point your toes towards the Buddha.
 
 
Cat Chant
08:43 / 09.06.06
congratulations and good luck!
 
 
Disco is My Class War
06:48 / 10.06.06
Xoc, thank you, those are exactly the kind of practical tips I was looking for.

It's not so much embarrassment about money that motivates me to post this stuff... It's more that I wonder how 'ethical' travelling can be done. It's interesting and unavoidable.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
05:04 / 25.06.06
Here I am in Bangkok, and wanted to return and say that this thread was a bit unnecessary. I'm sure it's good to be thinking about this stuff, but Bangkok is, after all, just another city.

I'm staying in Thewet, which is north of Khao San Rd and nearer the river -- it's quiet and quite untouristy apart from the few guesthouses on the street, and I'm just down the road from a couple of parks. The digs: a guesthouse that's nicely in between the swanky and the slummin', very cheap rates for a room with aircon and a bathroom. Although I assumed that 'bathroom' meant hot water and a Western toilet, I was mistaken. It's incredibly hot and muggy anyhow, so ascetic sluicings of cold water every couple of hours are welcome.

The biggest joy so far has been food. Noodles and roti and satay and fruit on every street corner. Also Siam Square -- lots of young hipsters and hip boutiques.

I've been taking lots of photos, some of which are here.

I'm going out to Sukhimvit and Silom Sois 4and 6 tonight, so any tips on good places to go by oneself where it won't be assumed that I'm looking for (paid) sex would be most welcome, Ganesh or Xoc -- or anyone.
 
 
Ganesh
08:42 / 25.06.06
Nice one - and yes, the food is excellent. I'm afraid it's virtually impossible to find anywhere in Bangkok where one isn't assumed (often fairly aggressively) to be looking to buy stuff, most usually sex. This is worse (or better, I suppose, depending how you look at it) for men, but happens to everyone - just one of the consequences of being obviously non-Thai. I'd suggest looking into taking a river trip: feels a bit touristy but gets you out of the muggy cityness for a while. Somehow, hawkers are more acceptable when they're floating.
 
 
Ganesh
08:45 / 25.06.06
I know it's not really what you're after, and there's not much of it, but here's our 2004 thread on Thailand, which mentions a few likely fleshpots.
 
  
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