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Tragedy & Melodrama

 
 
Shrug
23:03 / 06.06.06
My query started in the Questions and Answers thread but ultimately I thought there was a wider scope of discussion. So, perhaps, new topic?

I said:
Do you think that there's a specific structure to melodrama other than virtuous victim defeats victimiser(s)(and other such alliterative forumlae)? Surely, it has to be more complex than that?
Melodrama of the Sirk or Brechtian nature rather than Falcon Crest/Knots Landing/Die Hard et al, btw.
Also, does melodrama usually tend toward a tragic or non-tragic ending, in your own opinion?

PatrickMM helpfully added:
For me, the thing that makes something a melodrama is narrative agency. In a tragedy, a character ultimately fails because of their own flaws, the things they do that bring about their fate. In a melodrama, a character is usually locked into place by societal forces which prevent them from acting.

As a case example, look at something like Far From Heaven. Cathy is in love with Raymond, but can never be with him because she's married and they are racially different, so a relationship is verboten in the world they live in. There is no resolution of their problem that would feel emotionally real. If a melodrama does have a happy ending, it usually feels out of place, because the whole point of the story is to construct a situation in which the characters have no outs.

****************************

Thanks for the response btw MM.

I know melodrama is a moveable feast but doesn't it usually demand some harsh form of justice in it's end? Whereas tragedy is often more ambiguous in it's mercy? Also when Patrick talks of tragic flaw it remind me of Arthur Miller's concept of tragedy as needing to be nothing more than the protagonist's unwillingness to remain passive in the face of social challenge*, which seems to be a large part, as much as narrative agency, of the melodrama. There seems to be an intertwining of tragedy and melodrama that's sure. In relation to various texts, would anyone like to negotiate that difference?

Also general thread gushing and discussion of favourite filmic or theatrical melodramas/tragedies welcome.
 
 
autopilot disengaged
23:19 / 06.06.06
"Melodrama... may be defined as physical or emotional action for its own sake, action without spiritual or moral consequence or whose consequences of those kinds have atrophied and turned into cliche precisely by having been the staples of previous 'high' drama. Melodrama is in fact the periodic legacy of serious drama..." (Richard Gilman, The Making of Modern Drama)

i'd go with that - see melodrama less as a form in itself, and more a pathology, a perjorative term - very much doubt you cd find anyone who'd admit to purposefully writing melodrama.
 
 
the permuted man
14:41 / 07.06.06
I'm with autopilot. I've only ever heard melodrama as a perjorative.

But then again my genre language for such things hasn't advance much sense the Greeks: Sad ending, tragedy, happy ending, comedy. It's all drama.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
16:12 / 07.06.06
Sad ending, tragedy...happy ending, comedy

Mmm...not quite the definition that the Greeks were working with, Sub. I'll try and find the relelvant passage in Aristotle's Poetics but see, it's more like this:

Social order--->Chaos = Tragedy

Social order--->Chaos--->Return to order = Comedy

Which doesn't neccesarily say anything about how sad or happy the ending is.

That depends on the nature of the "social order" at the start of the drama- if it's despotic, and collapses, then you've got a tragedy with a happy ending. If it's a despotic order, comes close to collapse, and then comes back in full force, you've got a comedy with a sad ending.

Now, generally, instances like these are hard to find, (because to a lot of writers, a strong king was good, strong rules were good, chaos was bad) but they're just as legitimate as the traditional "comedy=happy", "tragedy=sad" model.
 
 
the permuted man
17:02 / 07.06.06
Yeah, you're right. I was trying to make a pithy little summary, but indeed sad and happy might not have been the best choice of wording.
 
 
Spaniel
18:10 / 07.06.06
Could probably do with Haus's input here, but from what little I can remember from my Function of Music in Drama classes, tragedy is less about a descent into chaos, and more about an inexorable march towards an inevitable doom.

Please feel free to correct me.
 
 
Shrug
01:12 / 14.06.06
Thanks for the posts on this everyone they've been very helpful. The whole tragedy/melodrama thing I think leaves me spiralling a little, though.
I'd disagree with melodrama as solely a pejorative term, if you look at Fassbinder or indeed Sirk's intentional use of melodrama, imho, it's pretty obvious that it isn't. Sure the hyperbolic emotion's present but coupled with what was often commentary on varying types of social injustice I've really liked it as a form. Yeah, Fear Eats the Soul or Far From Heaven revel in melodrama's campy/kitsch nature but don't do it in a censurious way for the actual form.
(ooo I've just looked back on what I said and will return with a greater level of sense tomorrow).
 
 
All Acting Regiment
05:55 / 14.06.06
tragedy is less about a descent into chaos, and more about an inexorable march towards an inevitable doom.

But doom and chaos = very similar concepts in the Classical mindset. Both mean the collapse of everything that stands (in Classical drama, The Man and The State).
 
 
Spaniel
18:27 / 14.06.06
I suppose chaos just doesn't sit very well with me because of the modern meaning. From memory, the doom that befalls the tragic protagonist is tailored to suit them, and is the direct consequence of their actions - it's an ordered state of affairs despite it's unpleasantness.

I think this stuff is worth pointing out (assuming I'm right) 'cause Filth might not know how the ancients used the word.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:35 / 14.06.06
Social order--->Chaos = Tragedy

Social order--->Chaos--->Return to order = Comedy


This is, I think, wrong, both as a representation of Aristotelean thought and as a description of Greek drama. It's worth remembering that Aristotle may have been very clever, but he was a shitty drama critic, by the way: his descriptions of Greek drama are at some variance with what actually happens in it. More later on this...
 
 
Shrug
23:03 / 14.06.06
I suppose chaos just doesn't sit very well with me because of the modern meaning. From memory, the doom that befalls the tragic protagonist is tailored to suit them, and is the direct consequence of their actions - it's an ordered state of affairs despite it's unpleasantness.

I think this stuff is worth pointing out (assuming I'm right) 'cause Filth might not know how the ancients used the word.


Yes! I have only small clues as to the greater semantic meanings of some of these words. But if we take Sophocles' Antigone. Creon's tragic flaw is hubris, arrogance in the face of The Gods. His punishment the rending apart of his family, as he has done to Antigone?

Antigone's is less clear, a woman transgressing patriarchal order? Hence the heavy imposition of that rule?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:59 / 16.06.06
I wrote something on Antigone, then lost it - will try to come back to it.

On Aristotle: he writes:

There remains then the mean between these [the good man and the bad man]. This is the sort of man who is not pre-eminently virtous and just, and yet it is through no badness or villainy of his own that he falls into the fortune, but rather through some flaw in him, he being one of those who are in high station and good fortune, like Oedipus and Thyestes and the famous men of such families as those. The successful plot must then have a single and not, as some say, a double issue; and the change must be not to good fortune from bad but, on the contrary, from good to bad fortune, and it must not be due to villainy but to some great flaw in such a man as we have described, or of one who is better rather than worse. This can be seen also in actual practice. For at first poets accepted any plots, but to-day the best tragedies are written about a few families-- Alcmaeon for instance and Oedipus and Orestes and Meleager and Thyestes and Telephus and all the others whom it befell to suffer or inflict terrible disasters.

Judged then by the theory of the art, the best tragedy is of this construction. Those critics are therefore wrong who charge Euripides with doing this in his tragedies, and say that many of his end in misfortune. That is, as we have shown, correct. And there is very good evidence of this, for on the stage and in competitions such plays appear the most tragic of all, if they are successful, and even if Euripides is in other respects a bad manager, yet he is certainly the most tragic of the poets.

Next in order comes the structure which some put first, that which has a double issue, like the Odyssey, and ends in opposite ways for the good characters and the bad. It is the sentimentality of the audience which makes this seem the best form; for the poets follow the wish of the spectators. But this is not the true tragic pleasure but rather characteristic of comedy, where those who are bitter enemies in the story, Orestes and Aegisthus, for instance, go off at the end, having made friends, and nobody kills anybody.


The flaw that he is talking about is hamartia - which actually comes from the verb for failing to hit a target with an arrow - so, a missing of the mark.

So, tragedy and comedy. Tragedy generally concerns the actions of mythical characters (although not always, possibly - cf Persae), and of great houses. If there is a standard plot, it is something like "the protagonist's failing leads them to their own destruction". However, "failing" here can apply to any number of things, which are often either not really flaws as such or are things the hero is powerless to avoid or avert.

Oedipus is a goood example of this - his failing in Oedipus Tyrannos is... what? That he killed his father and married his mother? He certainly _did_, but he didn't mean to, and in fact tried quite hard to avoid it - is trying to escape a divine prophesy itself impious? And what choice does he have? He is King of Thebes, Thebes is struck by plague, and the only way to lift the plague is to find out why the gods are punishing Thebes - he does what a good king would do, which is to seek to life the plague, even though it leads to his destruction. Perhaps his flaw is not really a flaw so much as a characteristic - he solves riddles. In fact, he is the great solver of riddles and, confronted by a puzzle, he has to get to the bottom of it, even when he has realised where it will take him...
 
 
matthew.
15:50 / 16.06.06
My classics prof at uni told me that Oedipus is the world's first detective story. Very cool. Even if it isn't a detective story, it's amazing.
 
  
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