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Spiegel interviews Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

 
 
Korso Jerusalem
23:18 / 30.05.06
This guy is really not helping his cause.

The Iranian president is interviewed by a German magazine, but proceeds to muck up any reasonable points he may have had by embarking on a holocaust-denying tirade.
 
 
elene
08:06 / 31.05.06
Ahmadinejad doesn't care about the Holocaust. He's not sure whether Jews were treated worse than eastern Europeans by the Nazis - he may have noticed they murdered 11 million non-Jewish Soviet civilians and 1 million Soviet Jews, for instance - but he doesn't care to find out whether they were. "World War II was a gigantic crime. We condemn it all." He doesn't trust Western media and the Holocaust industry to tell him the truth and it's not his problem anyway. However, he feels it's been used to legitimise the erection of a European colony in Palestine and he won't accept that. For Ahmadinejad the Holocaust, whether it happened or not, is today merely an excuse for a Zionist "regime of occupation" in Palestine.

The Spiegel says, "are you questioning Israel's right to exist?" Ahmadinejad in effect replies, "not necessarily, but then it should exist in Europe." The Spiegel says, "do you want to resettle a whole people 60 years after the end of the war?" And that is just pathetic.

Accepting Israel's existence is not a given, it's a political decision.

So, Phallicus, just what is wrong with Ahmadinejad's point of view, other than its not coinciding with your own?
 
 
sleazenation
08:36 / 31.05.06
I'd actually ask that Phallicus give us a bit more meat with which to open a topic - It isn't really good enough to chuck us a link and a one-liner.

What is your analysis of Ahmadinejad's 'leadership' (a problematic word since Ahmadinejad is not the leader of Iran, he is the democratically elected second fiddle to the unelected supreme leader). Spell out your worries and concerns ...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:47 / 31.05.06
Actually, having read the letter he sent to George Bush, his political stance in many ways resembled that of a slightly credulous Barbeloid. It's all "well, let me drop something of a mind bomb on you: what if THEY have been LYING to you?" - except that THEY is Zionists rather than lizards, and there's a fair crossover there already. I was slightly surprised he didn't go off on one about the Pentagon not being hit by a plane, as well.

His position is philosophically incoherent - if the young of Germany should not bear any responsibility for the Holocaust, why should the young of Israel bear any responsibility for the actions of their grandparents in moving to the Middle East in the first place?

He's on firmer ground with the nuclear stuff - US intransigence is a useful propaganda tool, here - but this doesn't disabuse me of the suspicion that he's kept around by the Theocrats to draw attention.
 
 
Supaglue
08:58 / 31.05.06
Ahmadinejad doesd have a problem when he talks about collective historical morality though - he asks, (possibly rightly) whether the youth of Germany should still be punished for atrocities committed 60 years ago, yet later seems to affirm that Europe has a historical obligation to Palestine. You can't cherry pick your history.

On that line of rationale, Western Coutnries owe Africa, say, very litle? - 'Coz most of the exploitation was done before I was born? Get real.
 
 
Supaglue
08:59 / 31.05.06
That Haus is always one step ahead.....
 
 
elene
09:40 / 31.05.06
His position is philosophically incoherent - if the young of Germany should not bear any responsibility for the Holocaust, why should the young of Israel bear any responsibility for the actions of their grandparents in moving to the Middle East in the first place?

I'm sure he would argue that Germany has been punished and has atoned, changed its system and introduce constitutional safeguards designed to prevent the repetition of such crimes, whereas Israel hasn't and continues to extend its illegal acquisition of Palestinian land to this day.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:02 / 31.05.06
How sure, elene, in light of the fact that he hasn't said that? He has said that the descendants of those who may or may not have committed those crimes should not have to cope with the consequences - in this case, the consequential compulsion to support Israel which he believes is what makes German foreign policy what it is. Applying that logic, I don't see why the descendants of the first Israeli settlers should have to move, or indeed why the descendants of the Europeans involved should find house room for them.

All of which is academic, anyway. The state of Israel is not likely to shift over to Europe anytime soon - Ahmedinajed is grandstanding for the benefit of hardline audiences back home.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
10:15 / 31.05.06
The link says the document is nicht gefunden. Google is only coming up with articles about the article, and I'd be interested in reading it.
 
 
Bruno
10:44 / 31.05.06
His position is philosophically incoherent - if the young of Germany should not bear any responsibility for the Holocaust, why should the young of Israel bear any responsibility for the actions of their grandparents in moving to the Middle East in the first place?

I disagree with a lot of what the man said.

But I disagree with Haus and others here because
the main difference is that in Israel there are Palestinians who have lost their homes and are still being killed and repressed, while in Germany this is no longer the case.
So the young in Israel bear some responsibility for supporting their government, for going to the army, for continuing to resettle etc. It is not just something that their grandparents did wrong, but something that is still going on to this day. While the German genocide of Jews stopped in 1945.

All of which is academic, anyway. The state of Israel is not likely to shift over to Europe anytime soon - Ahmedinajed is grandstanding for the benefit of hardline audiences back home.

True.
 
 
elene
10:52 / 31.05.06
Ahmedinajed is grandstanding for the benefit of hardline audiences back home.

Yes, indeed he is.

The state of Israel is not likely to shift over to Europe anytime soon

That is a fact, certainly, but that's all it is, and while it does restrict the set of possible solutions this problem can have, it legitimises nothing.

Phex, the article can now be found at
this link .
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:51 / 31.05.06
I'm sorry, elene, I misunderstood. If our intention is simply to condemn, then let us continue. However, right now Ahmadinejad is demanding something - the dissolution of the state of Israel - that is simply not going to happen, and as such any negotiation based on that might as well be posted to Barbelith for all the use it is going to be. "Dissolve the state of Israel or we will continue to enrich uranium" just means "we will continue to enrich uranium". Compare that with work towards a two-state solution, the securing of assurances, the ongoing exploitation of oil wealth, the creation of an actual Islamic democracy in the Middle East - they're a lot more effort than Holocaust denial, but they might in the long run have more practical impact.
 
 
elene
12:33 / 31.05.06
I'm sorry if that was irrelevant, Haus. I wanted to explicitly state that Israel's mere existence legitimises nothing because the Spiegel, and just about everyone else, seems to think it does and I want to be sure no one here thinks I'm that stupid.

I don't remember there being any demand to "dissolve the state of Israel or we will continue to enrich uranium." I can't imagine why there would be. Iran needs nuclear power and it needs nuclear weapons to defend itself. It will develop these things. This is inevitable, short of our committing a major war crime, or several.

I don't believe there will be any progress restraining Israel and providing a viable home for the Palestinian people until they, the Palestinian people, have an active supporter who is at least at the same technological level as Israel. The only candidate for that position is Iran. Once Iran possesses nuclear weapons serious negotiations toward a realistic two state solution will begin. Not before then. In the mean time any acknowledgement of Israel by Iran would be political incompetence, in my opinion.
 
 
alas
15:40 / 31.05.06
While I find elene's reading helpful, it nevertheless does seem to me that Mr. Ahmadinejad is deliberately suggesting that there's a reasonable case for the holocaust not having occurred, particularly through all those strategic "if's." That is a problem. And the Iranian state is, well, not certainly my ideal state.

I don't want more nuclear weapons in the world, but he is absolutely right that the US, in particular, is being entirely hypocritical in demanding that the nuclear nonproliferation treaties be so selectively applied when we are still actively using and developing nuclear-enhanced weapons. We are definitely creating this problem, but acting as though it's just these crazy Iranian mullahs.

These two things:

So the young in Israel bear some responsibility for supporting their government, for going to the army, for continuing to resettle etc. It is not just something that their grandparents did wrong, but something that is still going on to this day. While the German genocide of Jews stopped in 1945. (from Bruno)

and

Mr. President, doesn't there come a time when one should accept that the world is the way it is and that we must accept the status quo? , from the article,

have me thinking...

I've been studying writings by a Sioux/Dakota woman from the beginning of the 20th c. and historical analyses of U.S./American Indian relations/diplomacy, so this may be a bit tangential. But, to me, the US situation bears some similarities--it is compounded and complicated by the sheer number of Indian Nations in the U.S. and the lengthy history of some of the illegal actions.

All those "broken" treaties we signed? Well, they still exist--it was one of the ways that the US established itself as a legitimate nation was by deliberately making a paper trail of treaties in which American Indian Nations are treated as sovereign territories and in which the US became/called itself a sovereign entity, taking the place of the treaty-making done by Britain & France & Spain. Those documents could still be enforced (won't be), but there's no statute of limitations in foreign policy precisely. Cubans in the US still wield tremendous power by insisting that their land "rights" be respected--they are mostly Euro Cubans; the ones left behind are mostly Afro/indigenous roots.

Meanwhile, White America has long expected the native people somehow to just go away, to just disappear like "the Last of the Mohicans" fantasy, but despite attacks, wars, forced migrations, land siezures, graft, corruption, denial of human rights, and forced starvation, stealing of mineral and water rights... Despite all this there are now more Native people here, in the US, and all of them have a kind of dual citizenship (since 1924).

So we have established dubious or patently illegal claims to lands, properties and mineral rights, which have been now been inherited (& reinherited) and passed down in white families for generations and sold off (to other whites) and lost in bankruptcy courts to banks and land corporations, but it's all stolen goods, still, no?

Me, I have lived my whole life in land that was deliberately "cleared" (as they euphemistically say) for the use of people like me, and not so long ago (within the last 150 years, basically). So ok the actual people who "did this" are gone, but the paper trail exists and is periodically resurrected in various court cases (there have been recent ones in upstate NY for example). They are no older than some of the claims that have been passed down within families.

Even though most of these cases seem to have little realistic chance of gaining American Indians what they are putatively after in the cases--the land (sometimes some fairly significant quantities)--they are important in that they raise the spectre of the illegitimacy of US occupation of specific portions of its territory. That's a kind of cultural and political work, if nothing else--not simply a condemnation, I think.

I realize that the situations are quite distinct--other than the fact that both involve illegal occupation and an ongoing colonialist legacy--but this one is even more invisible, even (or perhaps especially) to most US residents.

I'm not comfortable with Spiegel's position that at some point one must simply "accept the status quo"...because it's always the "winners" that make that point, and they often do so from quite early in the battle. They do this to try to paint resistance as foolish, futile, shrill, and unpleasant, tasteless at best, immature. But I'm not sure when certain modes of resistance become counterproductive...often that's part of the hegemonic system: modes of resistance do turn into attacks on other crabs in the barrel. (E.g., the 8 years of the Iran-Iraq war which is so alive in his mind, but dead history to most Westerners.)

It's in the winners' interest, their fantasy, that the other simply recede or quiet down or "disappear" by like all those American Indians in all those sunset paintings. But we don't treat other parts of our own histories so lightly: we don't say to people we perceive as "equals": "just forget that deed you signed forty years ago giving you title to this land and your house," or "you'll have to ignore that will that your great grandfather wrote 100 years ago leaving it to your father," or "forget that Constitution you put together in 1787." The Western establishment does need to be taken to task for making these arrogant decisions about what pieces of history and even which legal documents matter and what things don't or "shouldn't."
 
 
Baz Auckland
01:38 / 01.06.06
I don't believe there will be any progress restraining Israel and providing a viable home for the Palestinian people until they, the Palestinian people, have an active supporter who is at least at the same technological level as Israel. The only candidate for that position is Iran. Once Iran possesses nuclear weapons serious negotiations toward a realistic two state solution will begin. Not before then. In the mean time any acknowledgement of Israel by Iran would be political incompetence, in my opinion.

Is this really realistic? If ten years down the road, Iran finally has a working nuke, they'll suddenly offer to recognise Israel in exchange for a Palestinian state? And Israel will agree?

I don't believe the stories that once Iran has The Bomb they'll use it on Israel, but I don't see it playing out this way either...
 
 
Baz Auckland
03:12 / 01.06.06
From the article: We don't want to confirm or deny the Holocaust. We oppose every type of crime against any people. But we want to know whether this crime actually took place or not.

Elene wrote: He doesn't trust Western media and the Holocaust industry to tell him the truth and it's not his problem anyway. For Ahmadinejad the Holocaust, whether it happened or not, is today merely an excuse for a Zionist "regime of occupation" in Palestine.

Given that he seems to bring it up a lot, it is his problem. Why say stupid things like "we want to know whether it took place or not" if he thinks it somehow has relevance to the current situation? I understand that support for Israel is tied to the Holocaust, but I don't understand why it has any relevance now to discussing a solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict.

Israel is sort of a given now, and any solution has to include there being an Israel in some form. For Ahmadinejad to keep bringing up the Holocaust is pointless and just seems odd...
 
 
All Acting Regiment
03:31 / 01.06.06
For Ahmadinejad to keep bringing up the Holocaust is pointless and just seems odd...

And also completely inflamatory, putting the Iranian people (the people he is supposed to serve) in danger from the Americans- at some level, anyway.
 
 
elene
04:23 / 01.06.06
If ten years down the road, Iran finally has a working nuke, they'll suddenly offer to recognise Israel in exchange for a Palestinian state? And Israel will agree?

Israel as it now stands, with the lands it currently holds and those it intends soon to possess, will never be recognised. There must be a viable Palestinian homeland. There must be part of Jerusalem for instance, and access to the rest. It won't be trivial. You’re right, it mightn’t work, but it’s the only chance the Palestinian people have.

I understand that support for Israel is tied to the Holocaust, but I don't understand why it has any relevance now to discussing a solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict.

It matters because tolerance for the abuse of the Palestinians is tied to blind support of Israel. One might think the Palestinians are the Nazis.

And also completely inflamatory, putting the Iranian people (the people he is supposed to serve) in danger from the Americans- at some level, anyway.

Iran has been in danger of American, and Israel, ever since the Shah left. It’s nothing new.
 
 
Baz Auckland
05:15 / 01.06.06
It matters because tolerance for the abuse of the Palestinians is tied to blind support of Israel. One might think the Palestinians are the Nazis.

So....denying the Holocaust helps the Palestinians how? The Palestinian side of things isn't given equal time or support in the west, but questioning the Holocaust doesn't help them.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
05:39 / 01.06.06
I don't believe the stories that once Iran has The Bomb they'll use it on Israel, but I don't see it playing out this way either...

Well, if it's not love...

Sorry.

So....denying the Holocaust helps the Palestinians how? The Palestinian side of things isn't given equal time or support in the west, but questioning the Holocaust doesn't help them.

Well, questioning it may not be the cleverest of moves, but arguably they (and when I say they, it really is just Ahmadinejad; it's not exactly a popular line from advocates for Palestine) have a reasonable claim to "they started it!" - pro-Zionist discourse often tends to be tied in to "anti-semite! You wish they'd all been killed in the Holocaust, don't you?" arguments, which are of course also unhelpful, but seem to be rather more successful at gaining popular traction. I mean, someone must read Nick Cohen's incoherent bilge, surely?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:59 / 01.06.06
pro-Zionist discourse often tends to be tied in to "anti-semite! You wish they'd all been killed in the Holocaust, don't you?"

Could you evidence that, pingles? Certainly, there is a line of argument, and one which is profoundly irritating, that identifies opposition to Israeli policy wiith anti-Semitism, but I've very rarely heard the following statement You wish they'd all been killed in the Holocaust, don't you?. If this _does_ regularly occur, it might help to explain Ahmadinejad's actions, but to be honest I think it would perhaps be better to condemn usage of the Holocaust for PR purposes in both cases rather than use one to excuse the other.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:24 / 01.06.06
It's a common accusation from hardcore apologists for the misdeeds of the Israeli state/government/military, Haus - Julie Burchill merges the two positions in this piece, with some fairly sophisitcated rhetoric and a disregard for facts that means the piece starts with several corrections, for example.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:39 / 01.06.06
Oh, dear.

What about a stubborn, shimmering little thing called truth?

Christ, who employs this woman?
 
 
elene
10:53 / 01.06.06
So....denying the Holocaust helps the Palestinians how? The Palestinian side of things isn't given equal time or support in the west, but questioning the Holocaust doesn't help them.

No, it doesn't help. I think this is just macho posturing on Ahmadinejad's part, rather like Bush's cowboy pose and his "bring it on" thing. It goes down well with his strongly anti-Israeli supporters, and probably not those alone. By the way, it isn't obvious that one of the West's most hated and threatened enemies would necessarily trust our historical research on a subject such as this. It's not at all obvious.
 
 
Korso Jerusalem
11:47 / 01.06.06
The U.S., helpful as ever, offers to open up talks with Iran on one condition:

They must suspend their disputed nuclear activities. Iran seems to be pushing forward with enrichment not only for reasons of national strength, but as an act of defiance against America. I'm sure someone in Washington must realize this, so perhaps this new statement is just designed to begin saving face for America as war approaches.
"Hey, we offered them talks, but they wouldn't agree."
Does anyone else see this "offer" as a sign of times to come?
 
 
sleazenation
14:25 / 01.06.06
They must suspend their disputed nuclear activities. Iran seems to be pushing forward with enrichment not only for reasons of national strength, but as an act of defiance against America.

Lets not forget strategic self defence as a pretty solid reason for wanting to develop a nuclear capability. India, Pakistan and North Korea seem to be salutary lessons that while political piorities change, ready access to nuclear technology is a far better safeguard against the US military invading your country to effect regime change.

I'm sure someone in Washington must realize this, so perhaps this new statement is just designed to begin saving face for America as war approaches.
"Hey, we offered them talks, but they wouldn't agree."
Does anyone else see this "offer" as a sign of times to come?


I think this reading misses a lot of carefully nuanced ambiguity in Secretary Rice's statement - it is important to remember that the US and Iran have not had any diplomatic relations with each other for 25 years. This is a significant step on the part of the US, a point that is underlined by the editorial from The Independant

As a little postscript I think this thread is rapidly moving beyond its remit of being about a single interview between Ahmedinejad and a German paper - should we move this debate onto the existing Iran-related thread or is now the time for a new, purpose-built thread ?
 
  
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