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Cavemen versus Astronauts

 
 
Henningjohnathan
16:41 / 19.05.06
The age old debate, but I'd rephrase it a little bit instead of who would win in a fight? Obviously, you could cite that technologically primitive people are more in tune with their bodies so they may have an edge in a hand ot hand combat. Conversely, you could point out the better nutrition and rigorous training would give an astronaut the edge.

However, what if you compared adaptability? How well would a pre-literate forager whose had to use his mind to compete against other species with considerable physical advantages in a wild environment adapt if he were dropped into a modern city? How well would an astronaut with exceptional mental and physical training cope crashlanding in the caveman's world? What are their advantages and disadvantages? Who would probably do better?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:10 / 19.05.06
Cavemen versus... I despair.

Henningjohnathan, I don't want to be unpleasant but what on Earth made you think this was a Lab topic?
 
 
Henningjohnathan
18:33 / 19.05.06
Why not?

How are half these topics really science based rather than psuedoscience. In this case, I was more interested in the comparison of so-called "primitive" people to "advanced." Marshall McLuhan theorized that technological advancement had a definite effect on physical capabilities mostly in the form of atrophy. The creation of engines led to a general decline in the physical endurance and capacities of the race. It could be argued that literacy itself actually limits memory and the use of the mind. The computer may have definite neurological effects as well as what used to be done by the brain is now performed in the machine.

I think framing the debate as cavemen (pretechnological/literate) vs astronauts (the apex of technological humanity) is a more entertaining way to frame the discussion.
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
18:56 / 19.05.06
Well, this is my oppinion, but i think doesn't fit as well in Laboratory, but anyway is speculation (and to speculate is part of science, I think).

One of the more interesting theories i've read lately is about menhirs and primitive sacred constructions. It has to be with electromagnetism. This people says that the construction of that has to be with the balance of electromagnetic field of the envirorment. When agriculture began, and forests were replaced by farming, in some way they had to be balanced.

This sense, the one to connect with teluric energies, it is said that is lost in modern world. Shamans also will go on ecstasis in points were this fluctuation of energies (similar to Cellular coverage and things like that)

So, if i should send a mission to space, i think i will include primitive sensitives or something like that, to connect to the prime "teluric" energies of the cosmos.

Ey, looks cool to a SF plot, it doesn't? Spacial Shamanism!

But yes, you have to accept some kind of animism here. BTW, now i'm studying history of cellular theory and it shocked to me that "vitalism" (animism) was accepted by many of its theorists.
 
 
ngsq12
20:10 / 19.05.06
Ok then.

What does it mean to be in balance with an electromagnetic field. I see a familiar in-the-olden-days-we-were-in-tune-with-nature-but-now-we-have-lost-touch sentiment.

I myself believe that we cannot lose touch with nature as there is nothing unnatural that can possibly exist within this universe. I equate sky scrapers with bird nests. Ball point pens with squid ink.

I feel a polemic coming on, I will calm down now and take a walk or something.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
20:19 / 19.05.06
That is an interesting theory and it was expressed quite well in the sequel to GHOST IN THE SHELL, INNOCENCE.

Essentially, the translation of the line I heard was "Cities and electrical grids are as much an expression of our DNA as are our arms and legs."

Of course, the irony of the story was that Batou, the man saying this, practically had no DNA left in his artificial body and brain. he's basically a robot who remembers being human, and the central theme of the first movie was that a form of consciousness emerged independent of any organic chemical processes.

In this case, you can say that in the end, everything artificial is an emergence from nature, BUT is that a relevant statement or simply a kind of truism? I believe there is a distinction between artificial and natural in the sense that one is the direct result of the imagination or design of humanity and the other is not. I do believe that we live in a much more artifical world than natural in the sense that even the trees in the parks are the result of planning.

But individually, I'm wondering if humanity in general is becoming more physiologically inferior than our ancestors who did not have these technological advantages. I'd assume that we were "smarter", but perhaps I'm mistaking the accumulation of knowledge for intelligence and imagination. I think it is quite possible that "primitives" are much more innately clever than the average techie.
 
 
ngsq12
21:10 / 19.05.06
From a phenomenological viewpoint, everthing is a constuct of our minds.

Thats why the shamans of old were so hard: they were in a bare fist fight with the elements.

These primatives however would be equally lost in the mordern world. Its a matter of adaptation to the environment you are in. I would put a well trained "splinter cell" operative against a caveman anyday.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
21:16 / 19.05.06
Are the astronauts wearing helmets?
 
 
Quantum
21:16 / 19.05.06
Welcome to the Conversation Forum, spurious Lab topic! Somebody slap a summary on this beeyatch!
 
 
ngsq12
21:27 / 19.05.06
Arguments are where you find em' someone else did it...
 
 
Mistoffelees
21:35 / 19.05.06
Is there a malfunctioning HAL accompanying the astronaut?
 
 
Lenore of Babalon
23:10 / 19.05.06
Eek! This brought about one of the most terrifying childhood flashbacks I've ever had!
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
23:49 / 19.05.06
Are the astronauts wearing helmets?

Possibly more importantly, do the astronauts have guns?
 
 
Triplets
01:53 / 20.05.06
Are the astronauts up against Captain Caveman?
 
 
Bubblegum Death
02:28 / 20.05.06
 
 
electric monk
03:24 / 20.05.06
Are the astronauts up against Captain Caveman?

Now that's a hundred million dollar live-action CGI summer blockbuster!
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
04:17 / 20.05.06
If the cavemen get to bring in Captain Caveman, the I move that the astronauts get to put forth Flash Gordon.

In yo FACE, cavemen!1!1!!
 
 
LykeX
07:54 / 20.05.06
Not to be a bastard, but maybe this was why this topic was better suited for the Lab.
You might not like the way the question was asked (who would win; Spiderman or Animal Man?), but there's a potential for some interesting discussion here, and I'm afraid the past X number of 'funny' comments have dumped that opportunity down the toilet.

Maybe a reposting of the question in a different manner could salvage the discussion?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:45 / 20.05.06
How are half these topics really science based rather than psuedoscience.

Well, quite a few of them aren't, or they start out okay and get derialed by psuedoscience later on--which is one reason I don't bother to post in the Lab much anymore. You might want to check out the meta-discussion and ask yourself if maybe this here topic couldn't have been thought through a bit more thoroughly.
 
 
Quantum
14:49 / 20.05.06
this was why this topic was better suited for the Lab

I disagree. A discussion about the comparison between hypothetical cavemen and astronauts and their relative merits is 100% Convo material. Where's the science? It's hard enough keeping the Lab respectable as it is, 'versus' threads do not belong there unless it's creationism vs science, or antibiotics vs alternative therapies, or solid vs liquid propellant or fusion vs fission or... you see my point. Cavemen vs astronauts? Convo.
 
 
ngsq12
16:43 / 20.05.06
I would say that a topic in the converstion forum has more leeway than one in the lab forum.

One could classify any of the topics in the conversation forum and place them in one of the others, but sometimes I think it is appropriate to banter away on these subject without strict regard for validity or accuracy. Hence the flippant remarks and simple talking bollocks - which I am all for.
 
 
Triplets
17:00 / 20.05.06
Cavemen get studied by anthropologists in a lab.

Astronauts make discoveries in an orbiting lab.

And you say they have nothing to do with laboratories? Don't speak to me. Just don't.

Just.

Don't.
 
 
Spaniel
17:17 / 20.05.06


SCIENCE FACT
 
 
Lenore of Babalon
20:09 / 20.05.06
Well, my link was both admittedly flippant, and genuinely the second thing I thought of (I'm appalled that I loved that show as a child...), but I avoided the first thing as I assumed it would involve major thread-derailment due to its source. In an attempt to be more helpful I'll be both brave enough to attempt a more on-topic response while being deliberately vague to avoid derailing of the discussion.

A book I read many years ago by a much maligned author (hence, the vagueness) addressed this subject wonderfully so much that I've actually re-read it many times despite other less-comfortable themes in the book.

The gist of the story is that a scientist believes that humanity's destiny and salvation lie in travelling into space, but that civilization/urbanization have completely eradicated the urge to explore. So he builds a time machine to send modern humans (while not astronauts, at least contemporaneous with them, and certainly "temporanauts") back to caveman times to protect the desire to explore in the species.

The underlying theme then throughout the novel is a "vs" that might actually fit in well in the Laboratory forum: "Knowledge" (as accumulated data) vs. "Intelligence" (as the ability to manipulate available data). There's a type of narcissism that comes with advancement (technological, educational, social, etc) that tends to belittle the "unsophisticated", but accumulation of information is useless without the ability to actually utilize it. This is illustrated well in the story where the modern humans are quite sure of being able to make up for the differential in physical strength between themselves and the cavemen by demonstrating their superior magic through being able to kill at a distance with their "magic sticks" and assuming that the natives will be awed. The cavemen are naturally thinking "Sooooo... *that's* how it works...".

Typing that made me reflect a little on the revised thread summary. I don't know the exact text of McLuhan's theory, but I'd disagree if it states that technology has a causal effect on loss of physical ability. I'd argue more that it tends to potentiate inherent tendencies to indulge behaviors resulting in physical atrophy. One view of technology is that it provides a way of avoiding "work" and giving us more leisure or playtime, but I think that there is a learned tendency to equate "work" with "physical exertion better avoided", while ignoring the fact that "play" can be "work" as well, and indeed can involve much more physical exertion than many physical activities described as "work".

Anyway, it would be simplistic to assume that conflict between cavemen and astronauts would solely be resolved via either physical or intellectual prowess rather than a combination of those and other traits.


On the other hand, astronauts have cool zip-guns that go tWEEEEEthakkathakkaZING!!!

Wait, wait! Cavemen ride sabre-tooths and eat dinosaurs!

Hmmm.. On second thought, I think the aliens win.....
 
  
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