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America: seriously, guys, what's up?

 
  

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Tryphena Absent
17:27 / 18.05.06
Left: Taxation and welfare for all, gun control, anti-smoking laws, affirmative action, environmental activism.

So I suppose the question is what's unexamined about adopting that position? Do you feel that there is any kind of representation in US government of those ideas?
 
 
alas
17:43 / 18.05.06
Ted Turner (Jane Fonda's ex), who sold CNN to AOL/Time-Warner. I seem to remember AOL's board swinging pretty Democratic as far as campaign contributions (can't recall the site to look that up, but it's some fact-checking thread I started on here) -- and founder Steve Case grew up with his cousin Ed, who's now a Democratic congressman. And there's a whole passel of actors.

This is probably true, grant, but these are massive media conglomerates, still, and that means pretty much one basic mission: profits for their shareholders, yeah? Even if I agreed that "Democrat"="left," which I sorta do (but...), I am not convinced party affiliation means much in that context, and certainly that of celebrities feels virtually meaningless, to me.

The media is primarily funded by commercials in the US (along with other factors specific to the US context) that means that truly leftist messages--e.g., messages that propose something other than a consumer-based economic system; that challenge the distribution of wealth; that take on the fact that while profits of the economy have been privatized, costs have been largely socialized, made invisible, and often disproprotionately inflicted on impoverished communities (e.g., locating dumps near slums)--those kinds of messages have almost no chance of being aired, in the first place, and, when they are, they are almost impossible to truly "hear." At least that's my experience.

And Phallicus's brief list of what ze views as "left" issues is the result of this scheme--those really aren't "left" issues so much as ... well a bunch of hot-button topics that have largely been framed by a right-wing, capitalist, conservative frame.

Take "Welfare for fall." "Welfare" is a term that in the US is almost completely perjorative; it connotes payments made by the government to an able-bodied (but lazy) person for an indefinite period of time, probably over generations in a cycle of "welfare dependency." In the minds of most Americans it does not seem to actually include the closest thing we have to a full-fledged social welfare program, i.e., Social Security. So those aren't "left" stances, they're just, ...noise. Because the one true welfare program we have... is deeply threatened, but widely popular, because it benefits so many people--as true welfare programs do and should.
 
 
Korso Jerusalem
17:45 / 18.05.06
Anna-

No, actually. Those views are mostly adopted by activists, who as far as I know don't have much representation.

The "Right vs. Left Battle Royale" is just the picture that the news paints for the average citizen. Congress is essentially running on a unified course, with some inconsequential muttered complaints coming from the democrats on occasion.
 
 
skolld
18:16 / 18.05.06
My chart of American Politics


Far Right:
Out right Zionists
--Neo Conservatives
-----Religious Right
The Middle:
Moderate Conservatives, Most of the Republican Party


The Middle:
The Democratic Party

The Far Left: None to speak of
 
 
Korso Jerusalem
19:26 / 18.05.06
Like I said, most of the "far left" are just activist groups with no discernible bearing on Washington.

A good summary, though.




Also, I have an announcement:

I'm a pompous idiot. A revelation came to me in my car not ten minutes ago, and it was this:

I'm finishing fucking high school right now, how the hell am I supposed to be an authority on the American political climate? I'm sure there are loads of people with actual political convictions out there, not just hipsters with Greenpeace badges. Sorry for making an ass of myself.

Proceed.
 
 
grant
19:29 / 18.05.06
The media is primarily funded by commercials in the US (along with other factors specific to the US context) that means that truly leftist messages--e.g., messages that propose something other than a consumer-based economic system; that challenge the distribution of wealth; that take on the fact that while profits of the economy have been privatized, costs have been largely socialized, made invisible, and often disproprotionately inflicted on impoverished communities (e.g., locating dumps near slums)--those kinds of messages have almost no chance of being aired, in the first place, and, when they are, they are almost impossible to truly "hear." At least that's my experience.

Oh, for definite. At most, these people I mentioned would be folks who'd have been kindly centrists 50 years ago. The loudest voices now are definitely the ones with money (and thus, invested in the money-making/wealth-for-wealthy system). Some are less right than others, and a few are nominally leftist.

I actually first mentioned AOL because I remember some talk about the other compu-Steve being involved in the corp (Steve Jobs), but the web wasn't kind to me as far as discovering his corporate allegiances and his political statements. Then I found out about Case's cousin (thanks, wikipedia), which might say more about corporate ties to the Democratic party than links between media CEOs and a genuine leftist Left, but seemed significant.
 
 
grant
19:37 / 18.05.06
Thus, Boboss: it seems like the left doesn't actually have a popular media platform in the states and that left wing voices barely get a look in.

Am I wrong?


Is true in one regard, and false in another. The (voiced) US left isn't as left as other (silent, alt. media) lefts. I do think part of this is that "real" leftists spurn TV and mainstream media altogether. Small websites, flyers, local indie magazines, OK. Letters to the Editor, talk radio shows, maybe. Submissions to major metropolitan newspapers or TV networks, not so much.

Although here's a question: does MTV or Comedy Central count? More people trust Jon Stewart than any other genuine news show, and he seems pretty much leftist (although maybe I just think that because he seems smart).
 
 
ibis the being
19:42 / 18.05.06
I'm talking about just what you mentioned, those who align with a cause simply for the social status it carries, left or right. Flyboy, I can't give an "example" because I can't very well round up a crows of hipsters wearing anti-W pins and have them give you a call. [...]I can't very well speak for every American citizen, I can only talk about what I've observed personally in New England.

Oh, hey, I'm in New England too. I guess I already said that though.

I think, Phallicus, your perception of these anti-W hipsters may have to do with your age and social sphere. A lot of people in their teens do a lot of things for social status or group identity... I think it's a normal phase of adolescence but hardly representative of Americans as a whole.

It may, oddly enough, be representative of the political identities of college students, however. Yesterday when I was composing a post I found this article talking about trends among college freshmen, including -

[UCLA's Higher Education Research Institute found] more students than ever viewing themselves as politically extreme, with 3.4 percent calling themselves "far left" and 2.2 percent "far right."

The percentage of students identifying themselves as liberal (26.1 percent) or conservative (21.9 percent) also rose from last year. The category "middle of the road" remained the most common at 46.4 percent, but declined 4 percentage points from a year ago to its lowest level in 30 years.


(Also, total threadrot but I really have to throw it out there, the next paragraph says The survey also found a record 22.7 percent of freshmen believe that racial discrimination is no longer a problem in America, but the number reporting that they frequently socialized with members of other racial or ethnic groups fell slightly, as it has since 2001, to 67.8 percent. Fucking yikes!!)

Moving on,

it seems to me that the right wing slant in the US media has created the impression that there is some kind of enormous, organised socialist bogey man out there (often located in Hollywood, or not located at all) and that the Right are standing firmly against it. And, you know, I reckon that's complete bollocks.

Hm. It's definitely complete bollocks but I'm not entirely sure that happens in reality. I think that is a narrative that the media likes to perpetuate but it's not wholly accurate. I actually don't believe there is a right wing bias in the media, nor a left wing bias. There is only a simple profit bias and a concern with pandering to the largest possible audience (a rating bias). The media, when not actively manipulated or shushed by the government (another topic, another time), is generally biased toward whichever way the wind blows. They're pro-war and kissing the President's ass when his approval ratings are high, and they're - well, maybe not anti-war but they ignore the war and show more coverage of the latest BushAdmin scandal when his ratings and support for the war are low. I think it's a mistake to portray the media as politically motivated - it's profit-motivated, period.

Last weekend CBS's 60 Minutes did a segment on the Dixie Chicks, who of course are the country music starts somewhat infamous for making the comment that they were "ashamed the President of the United States is from Texas" and publicly espoused an anti-war stance. The interviewer remarked that although the band's new single is pretty low on the charts, it's the number one download online (he didn't say where, but you get the gist) - when asked why that is, Natalie Maines pointed out that "I think you explain it that when you're in the corporate world and when that's your livelihood and when 100 people e-mail you that they'll never listen to your station again, you get scared of losing your job."

What I'm getting at is that the media is a beast totally separate from the public and public opinion - it's a self-contained, self-referential behemoth. It tells a story, and then it tells another story about its own reaction to its own stories and so one, ad infinitum (The Dixie Chicks are anti-war! There is a huge backlash! They're not getting radio play! No one likes them anymore! The country hates anti-war people especially when they're celebrities)... fueled by ratings alone this story may eventually not resemble reality in the least. People don't consume media that they agree with - they consume media that is exciting, accessible, entertaining, fascinating, titillating, etc. Those are all totally apolitical qualities.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
19:44 / 18.05.06
I certainly consider Jon Stewart to be a leftist, but not alarmingly so, as he still wants to be able to get righties on the show. hedoesn't typically ask tough questions of his guests, but his monologue is usually scathingly anti-neocon. The only thing that irritates me about him is the pro-Israel slant of the show.
 
 
Korso Jerusalem
19:58 / 18.05.06
Being pro-Palestine seems to carry such a stigma in America right now, so it's no wonder.
 
 
Dead Megatron
20:20 / 18.05.06
The only thing that irritates me about him is the pro-Israel slant of the show.

Wel, he isjewish and, although I do not suggest jewish people are or should be biased towards pro-israelism, perhaps that's his case. Maybe he's got relatives/friends/whatever living in there, and it gets hard for him to be objective on the subject. Nobody's required to be absolutely perfect, y'know.

(oh, and btw, I never noticed that slant you mention - maybe because I only get the "global edition" that airs on CNN International once a week. But, could you give, say, examples?)

Hmmmmm, Chomsky/Bush cage match? Is it... to the death?[drools in atecipation, since finds both of them annoying*]

* Bush is worse and more dangerous, though. At least, Chomsky can organize two or more sentences in a roll.
 
 
matthew.
21:10 / 18.05.06
May I ask for clarification on the pro-Israel thing? Examples of a anti-Palestinian opinion? It's just that where I live, nobody knows anything about the whole conflict, so it never comes up in conversation. Ever. I have no opinion because I know very little of the details, other than the broad facts.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
03:03 / 19.05.06
I'm sorry, I honestly can't give examples, as specific instances don't stick in my head. I have been a dedicated watcher of the show since early 2003, however, and all I can say is that I have noticed that any Israel/Palestine issue brought up on the show has been couched very carefully to not offend pro-Israeli sentiment, with no regard to the viewpoints of those of us who may support the Palestinians over the Israelis. Which I do, which is why I have this impression.

That was my bad, sorry.
 
 
matthew.
03:07 / 19.05.06
I met in general, not specific to the show, but that would be helpful as well.
 
 
Ticker
18:59 / 31.05.06
Well it is a pretty good barometer of your American community's attention span to ask them what they think of Israel/Hammas than wait oh 5 minutes and ask about UK/IRA.

Having lived in Boston and being of mixed Irish/Scots decent I used to get into massive fights about the IRA's practices. The American people have a real strong loyalty to 'freedom fighters' and hate 'terrorists' but they're not really good at tracking what label applies when. In Boston speaking against the IRA can get you not only thrown out of a pub but the crap beat out of you by the same people that would probably have the same reaction if you stated support for Hammas.

In terms of left vs right most people I know have mixed beliefs ( in New England ). I have a running deal with my republician pro choice father that if Roe vs. Wade gets overturned I'm going to kick him in the seat of the pants...and I often wear steel toed boots.
 
 
ibis the being
20:02 / 31.05.06
Having lived in Boston and being of mixed Irish/Scots decent I used to get into massive fights about the IRA's practices. The American people have a real strong loyalty to 'freedom fighters' and hate 'terrorists' but they're not really good at tracking what label applies when. In Boston speaking against the IRA can get you not only thrown out of a pub but the crap beat out of you by the same people that would probably have the same reaction if you stated support for Hammas.

Well, as a fellow Bostonian of Irish descent I can agree with your characterization of this attitude but I wonder how typical of American attitudes it is. The "Boston Irish" are, shall we say, special. There's a kind of grasping at Irish identity (which of course the actual Irish in Boston find ludicrous, and at times offensive) in Boston that's a big part of the culture of the city but I don't think it's quite the phenomenon elsewhere that it is here. People here, in their ignorance of the history and the subtleties of the UK/IRA 'troubles,' believe that taking the side of the IRA is part of being REALLY Irish, and cling as fiercely (and as narrow-mindedly) to this binary loyalty as they do to Sox fanaticism. I actually have a friend who (like me) is 3rd generation Irish American - born and raised right here in MA - and has sneered at me for being "Protty" (though I'm not even religious & my parents converted from Catholicism). I don't think that kind of thing would happen in, say, Buffalo, but I may be wrong.

In regard to your second point about people having mixed beliefs, I think again that New England and especially Massachusetts are special in this regard. I'm not saying that most Americans fall perfectly into "right" or "left" categories, but New Englanders do seem to have a bit more of a smorgasbord of ideologies. Purely speculating here, but it may have to do with the fact that our states are so small, that there's more of a sense that your vote matters and your particpation in politics can have more tangible results... so that when you feel more involved, you examine each issue and pick & choose what you support rather than just falling into default party lines.
 
 
Ticker
17:06 / 01.06.06
ibis

I've run into the delusions regarding the holiness of the IRA in upstate NY quite often.

You don't think the 'freedom fighters'=good 'terrorist'=bad extends beyond New England? I haven't lived that long in other places but I had thought this was greater than Yankee pride in the American Revolution....

This is a little off topic but when I was working a push cart in Downtown Crossing selling Celtic-wares imported by my native Irish boss I used to retell the myths to anyone who wanted to know them. Used to break my heart when a mother or a father would push their kid up to me and ask me to tell them one of the old stories so that 'they'd know the Irish aren't all drunks and bullies'. The Boston Irish are indeed 'special'.

There's been a few threads going with mention of the culture perceptions of various parts of the US and different cultural norms associated therein. For example asking someone what church they belong to within the first 10 minutes of knowing them seems a standard practice for some places in the south where as you'd get the hairy eyeball for asking that question at all in the majority of the north. That said I do know a lot of people of mixed bag feelings but the majority I have spoken with seem to think there is a divide.
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:43 / 02.06.06
What's up? Seriously?

Here's what's "up".

Democracy? Don't make me laugh...
 
 
EvskiG
20:52 / 02.06.06
>Is the left vs. right war really THAT extreme?

Sadly, yes.

Get me the fuck out of here.

If my job skills (law) were even remotely transferable I'd be out of this country and in the UK, Canada, or even France in a shot.
 
 
Anewbiz
21:27 / 08.06.06
I would say everything's going according to plan if there's no more choice in America (corporations with no allegiance to the US--they're certainly not paying their share in taxes--bought both parties) and if you can't get on the presidential debates. They even barred Perot on his second attempt and he got MILLIONS of votes his first run. So as Grant Morrison says, there is only division on the surface, and if you keep giving a shit about that, you'll just grow neurosis, borders, and fighting. Because them is us. How many good books propogating this do you have to read before you start living it and stop criticizing. At 27, I'm gonna become a Mason, myself, I'm sick of skepticism as a half-educated fool.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:24 / 09.06.06
Because them is us.

Illuminating. Say I am a man whose sexual practices are solely homosexual. In what sense are the people who want my expression of my sexuality to be made illegal also "me", and who would benefit from me not "fighting" their attempts to criminalise and stigmatise me?
 
 
Char Aina
09:08 / 09.06.06
How many good books propogating this do you have to read before you start living it and stop criticizing./

one more.
just one more.

do you have any you recommend?


I'm sick of skepticism as a half-educated fool.

what do you mean?
 
 
Dead Megatron
09:48 / 09.06.06
Because them is us.

Illuminating. Say I am a man whose sexual practices are solely homosexual. In what sense are the people who want my expression of my sexuality to be made illegal also "me", and who would benefit from me not "fighting" their attempts to criminalise and stigmatise me?


Well, in the sense you're pretty sure you're right and they're wrong, you and them are exactly the same.

(this is just an example, of course. I also think you're right and they are wrong)
 
 
Char Aina
10:06 / 09.06.06
surely the point is that while there is only division on the surface, that superficial divsion can get you killed, or worse brutally tortured and then killed?
while there may be deeper truths to know, they arent a fuck of a lot of use when someone has just poured tar over you.
 
 
quixote
04:22 / 19.06.06
I haven't read all the comments, but just wanted to add my two cents' worth. I wasn't in the US during the Joe McCarthy Red Scare years, which I gather were very bizarre. Pre-Reagan, Americans tended toward being a lot like the Uncle Sam at the barbecue. Not that they weren't selfish, like any human being, but it wasn't considered good or admirable to be selfish. Reagan started the trend of making selfishness respectable. It has been strengthening ever since. It's degenerating into real fascism at the fringes, and the fringes keep growing until by now they're huge. Abominations like Coulter, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Malkin, and on and on and on ad nauseam, would have been unthinkable a few decades ago. What's weird now is not that they exist. You could probably go to any eminently rational country (Iceland? I don't know. You choose.) and find a few raving demons. The difference here is that we've slipped so far that the demons are considered "normal." They're just "another opinion." That's the real rot at the core.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
05:12 / 20.06.06
Reading through the thread, I think that the "right v left" is largely a creation of the media, and the average American doesn't pay a lot of attention to it. For all of the focus on people like Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh, their audiences are fairly limited (O'Reilly to about 2 million, Limbaugh to about 13 million), but the way news is reported now makes it seem a LOT worse.

Any time an issue story comes up, the American media gets someone from the left and someone from the right, they give thier opinion and the reporter leaves it up to the audience to decide, rather than breaking in and giving actual facts during their discussion.

The right spent so many years hammering the media as liberal, that they bend over backwards not to appear that way by either allowing right wingers more access to the airwaves, or "over reporting" in left wing politican misdeeds, and painting right wing scandals as a "they all do it."

It reminds me so much of pro wrasslin that I wonder if there is any actual reporting going on in the news media anymore.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:44 / 20.06.06
Any time an issue story comes up, the American media gets someone from the left and someone from the right,

Who do they tend to get from the left?
 
 
Ender
18:52 / 20.06.06
I think that many people in this country are not extreme, however those are the same people that really just don't care about the political areana. These are the people that dont watch the news, and dont know what happened in the headlines yesterday.

At the same time, I must admit (in a moment of true honesty) that I watch the news for entertainment just as much as I watch to be informed. I get a thrill out of the fights and dancing around topics. I see that blow hard bill O'fuckly as a great entertainer. It is all about the ratings. I had moments of anger at guys on both sides, until I realized two things, the first is the whole entertainment aspect, and the second is that the people that involve themselves are personally invested in what they are doing.

My newsroom is a hot-bed for left vs. right. Our publisher has learned through years and years of experience to be what I see as pretty damned un-biased, but I have had to watch her pull two reporters apart. She says that she needs passionate people to get personally involved. But she needs to be there to moderate them.
 
 
sleazenation
19:03 / 20.06.06
I'd rather see rabid journalists eager to rip strips of anyone, left or right, who is attempting to sell you anything.

John Humphries reported maxim "Why is this liar lying to me" should be the driving force of every political interview and roundtable.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:42 / 21.06.06
I've heard it attributed to Paxman and I think it's a terrible idea for discourse. A Paxman interview with someone is 95% a waste of time, but I shall go find another thread to complain about it...
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
14:46 / 25.06.06
Any time an issue story comes up, the American media gets someone from the left and someone from the right,

Who do they tend to get from the left?


Depends on the network. I watch CNN< and they tend to lean on Paul Begalia, Donna Brazile and James Carville, although Randi Rhodes is making a lot of appearances on a couple of their shows, and could move to a career in TV if and when AAR finally goes away.

Each network has their "chosen pundits", and while most of them lean VERY heavily on the right wingers, I'm really struck by how lazy the news networks are now, and wonder if they actually have an investigative reporters at all.
 
 
Z. deScathach
21:32 / 26.06.06
People don't consume media that they agree with - they consume media that is exciting, accessible, entertaining, fascinating, titillating, etc. Those are all totally apolitical qualities.

I would disagree with this. It's very human to want to believe that one's personal spin on the universe is "right and correct". When such persons watch a commentator that reflects their views, it gives them a sense of comfort.

America's view of the left and right are highly skewed. Left wing extremists are often viewed as "dangerous wackos", while right wing extremists are viewed as "God- fearing Christians", or, "perhaps a little too strong in their faith". This represents the highjacking of the right by Christian groups, which was a stroke of genius. Who wants to be on the side that's "unholy"? If anything, America's shift to the right has been due to that.
 
 
diz
03:47 / 27.06.06
Depends on the network. I watch CNN< and they tend to lean on Paul Begalia, Donna Brazile and James Carville, although Randi Rhodes is making a lot of appearances on a couple of their shows, and could move to a career in TV if and when AAR finally goes away.

The problem is that none of those people are really "from the left." They're all basically center-right. One of the many, many problems with the pathetic state of televised political debate in this country is that all the shows have someone from the extreme right representing the conservative view, and someone from the center-right representing "the left"
 
 
Mark Parsons
03:00 / 03.07.06
Randy Rhodes is definitely left. And Carville was.
 
 
elene
06:26 / 03.07.06
I'd say Randi Rhodes is definitely Liberal. She is indeed left of Mr Bush, and even Mr Clinton, but she's not left of centre. I've no idea where you get the idea James Carville is left, no idea at all. Do you consider Hillary Clinton left too, furioso?
 
  

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