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Japanese & Quantum physics?

  
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
18:41 / 13.05.06
It's only a intuition; i was taking japanese classes for a few months, and it seemed to me that the structure of the language is similar to quantum physics structurationn of the universe? (well, yes, another "quantumphysics-oodie-new-age-relationship")

Does anybody have any thought about this?
 
 
*
23:04 / 13.05.06
I know I'm going to regret this, but what exactly seems similar to you about Japanese and quantum physics which couldn't be equally easily said of quantum physics and any other random abstract noun, please?
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
08:12 / 14.05.06
For exemple: take the words to describe a number of things. You have at least 80 terminations depending the size and the shape of the object that you want to count. Or something like that, I don't remember well. But it seemed to me similar to Bohr's fuzzy Cophenaguen interpretation of the language. Other cases, and habits of the japanese (You have a word that means "no" but at the same time doesn't mean "no": Chotto) make me think that in fact language is configured with that "quantum" vision of reality.

Since i don't know very much japanese, i wanted to ask people if it has some sense or it's pure shit.Surely this is pure shit, i know.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
08:20 / 14.05.06
All languages are like that. You can say "no" in a certain way to have it mean "of course/obviously".

Do you mean that language on study reveals itself to be ambiguous and complex, as does physics?
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
09:16 / 14.05.06
Yes, japanese is complex and ambiguous, but i don't think all languages are that way. I've notions of German, french, italian (i say notions, uh?, i don't speak them well) and japanese is another world, anotehr conception on the structures of semantic.

Perhaps the chotto example is a bad exemple (but it must be understand in the context of the habit: japaneses CAN'T say no: they must be ambiguous by convention.)

I've the intuition that japanese is more to "quantum" vision of the world that is western languages.

But it's only a intuition. And maybe it's just shit, i know

crap!shit!mierda!
 
 
All Acting Regiment
06:24 / 15.05.06
Well I've heard English described as infuriatingly difficult (or at least very alien) by a Chinese student, so I think it probably runs both ways...
 
 
All Acting Regiment
06:29 / 15.05.06
(That is to say, they found it to be full of bizarre, seemingly illogical rules)
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
06:40 / 15.05.06
Well, ok Legba Rex, sure it's alienating, to pass to another language. But has it to be with that i'm asking? Do you have any notions of japanese? I'm referring that I think that the syntaxis in japanese (and maybe chinese and asiatic languages, but sicen I DON'T KNOW them i can't talk about) is structured in a more fuzzy way.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
07:14 / 15.05.06
Maybe. I'd need to know more about Japanese though, so I'll read up on it.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
09:25 / 15.05.06
I'm finding it amusing that so many of the pioneers of quantum physics were German (or similar) speaking. If Japanese is syntactically more ambiguous, I doubt it translates (boom-boom!) into any kind of affinity for quantum mechanics.

Thing with quantum stuff, mind, is that insofar as it goes it is precise; although what it's saying is that something is imprecise, it can be very precise about the imprecision. If you see what I mean.
 
 
elene
10:56 / 15.05.06
One might well claim that German is like QM. One can only have probable knowledge of the meaning of a German sentence right up until one finds the verb, at the end. Reaching the verb of a German sentence is therefore like quantum state reduction (measurement).

I don't think that Japanese being in some sense vague, in your opinion, s3r3bro, indicates that the language must have a meaningful correspondence to QM. I think one needs to show that the language somehow forms a representation of the Poincaré group or something along those lines to do that.
 
 
petunia
13:56 / 15.05.06
Isn't this all a bit Fritjof Capra?
"The tao of physics" and all that...

Many East Asian philosophies (Taoism, Zen, Buddhism...) tend to give a worldview that seems quite compatible with the findings of quantum physics. Ideas of interrelatedness and uncertainty, along with the nice is/isn't paradoxes we're given by some quantum physics have been around for centuries in much of the philosphy and religion of cultures such as Japan and China.

As a language is informed and shaped by the philosophy/worldview of a person or culture, it seems pretty reasonable that Japanese will seem a lot more 'quantum' to a Eurpean language-speaker who uses concepts and words that are indebted to thousands of years of Plato, Aristotle and Christianity.

The only example i can think of (i know no Japanese but am inerested by it so pick up random trivia concerning it) is that Japanese has no future tense for its verbs. This strikes me as indicative of the mix of Shinto and Zen within the culture - a philosophy of presence-in-the-now combined with an awareness and respect for one's ancestry which leads to a present that has a past, but a future which is grounded in the present (you can only express the future by saying 'i do this tomorrow' - the verb remains present, with the noun expressing the temporality). This may of course be happy romanticism of the 'majical mystical easteners' and i may have my facts totally wrong about the future tense, but it's quite a nice example.

Also read some Zen koans or Lao Tzu (Chinese, i know, but a great influence on Zen and thus Japan) For some excellent parallels with quantum studies.

But i doubt that one could ever make a serious or scientific Claim about the connection - perhaps that one philosophy comes close to a science, but that's Temple stuff...

(crap? shit? mierda?)
 
 
the permuted man
17:29 / 15.05.06
Since I'm not clear what is meant by "quantum physics structurationn of the universe", I can't contribute much to the original conjecture but I can clarify some things:

You have a word that means "no" but at the same time doesn't mean "no": Chotto

This is incredibily confusing. Don't you mean at other times? Are you claiming the word means "no" in some situations and not in others; or are you claiming it means both "no" and not "no" whenever used.

japaneses CAN'T say no: they must be ambiguous by convention

Not true. The language allows you to say no as easily and readily as English. Also, Japanese, as a noun, is both singular and plural.

The only example i can think of (i know no Japanese but am inerested by it so pick up random trivia concerning it) is that Japanese has no future tense for its verbs

Also not true. Here, I suspect the fault lies in the way you were taught the language. It's convenient to first divide Japanese tenses between past and present/future and then into perfect/imperfect of both, as we have obvious analogues. However, the present imperfect would always be used for present, whereas the present perfect would be used for future. Thus there is a distinction. There are also modal verb structures (akin to could/should/would) to be learned later and distinguish "I will" from "I intend to". The verb is the fundamental element of a sentence in Japanese -- it's often the entire sentence -- and you can do a great deal with it grammatically. You can also, to your heart's content, turn verbs into nouns and vice versa to further complex ends: "having wanted to drink(noun) might become embarassing, I thought"

Well I've heard English described as infuriatingly difficult and (That is to say, they found it to be full of bizarre, seemingly illogical rules)

I concur.

--

The funny thing is Japanese does have a rather flagrant source of ambiguity which hasn't been touched on. This stems from its linguistic origins, in that there was a long time extant spoken language before Chinese was appropriated for writing and mish-mashed into speech.

The problem is there aren't a great deal of unique sounds in the Japanese language. While Chinese combats this by a variety of tones (5, I think, but I'm unsure), Japanese has only two, and essentially only one. So it's forced to either use increasingly large words or homonyms. It chose homonyms. The result is a limited spoken language which requires a lot of attention to context clues and expression. The written language, not suffereing such constraints, remains compact and clear, but also difficult to the underexposed, which is why your average Japanese high school student can't read the newspaper...

Alas, I digress. I just think if you're looking at a language, it's important to consider its evolution.

Also, I don't want to give the wrong impression with "limited spoken language". I have no idea the number of words in the spoken language, but the limitations rarely come up and I'm sure it's comparable with our respective native langauges' average word usages. It's just if someone uses a word you don't know in English, you know it's a word that you don't know, rather than thinking it's a different word because it sounds the same. Although again because native Japanese speakers spend their entire lives speaking Japanese, the situation is anticipated and thus less confusing.
 
 
grant
19:38 / 15.05.06
While Chinese combats this by a variety of tones (5, I think, but I'm unsure), Japanese has only two, and essentially only one.

Depends on the kind of Chinese; Mandarin has four (five counting "neutral") while Cantonese has seven.

I think this thread is probably based on a kind of ambiguity that exists in the roots of every language and grows out in different ways. Mandarin has no word for "yes" -- there's a "correct" (dui), but to signal assent or answer a question positively, you simply repeat the verb. There's also some weirdness about tenses, too (I think only past participles rather than "real" past tense) but I'm not familiar enough to be sure about how that really works. Still a beginner.

Anyway, post-structuralism is all about the ambiguity between words and things, which seems to get elided with quantum physics allatime.
 
 
*
20:55 / 15.05.06
Also, Japanese, as a noun, is both singular and plural.

Yes. Also— to s3r3bro— Japanese, as a noun, is insulting. As subnaut very nicely demonstrates, native speakers of Japanese, Japanese speakers, or Japanese people are all perfectly adequate phrases and not insulting.

Mandarin has no word for "yes" -- there's a "correct" (dui), but to signal assent or answer a question positively, you simply repeat the verb. There's also some weirdness about tenses, too

This isn't all that weird; Celtic languages do the same thing. Although in modern Irish the verb "to be" has come to be used colloquially as yes or no: "is ea" or "ni hea" respectively.

This thread reminds me of the rubbish proclamation by adherents of strong Sapir-Whorfianism that the Eskimo people (all of them, apparently) have some huge number of words for snow. It depends on a completely inadequate understanding of the language, garnered from bits and pieces of trivia rather than disciplined linguistic study.

Actually, let's talk about the Sapir Whorf hypothesis. Presumably the reason why we might find a perceived connection between the Japanese language and quantum mechanics interesting at all is because we believe language affects thought in profound and fundamental ways, right? Thus, if in fact it were true that the Japanese language had no future tense (which is not the case), it would indicate that Japanese people couldn't understand the concept of "the future" in the same way as speakers of languages with a definite and distinct future tense. Whereas if English does not reflect quantum mechanics in its linguistic structures, surely native speakers of English are less well equipped to understand quantum mechanics than native speakers of Japanese. Is this the fundamental thought process in operation?
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
21:43 / 15.05.06
Ok. No, in fact, i know you can say No (the word is "iie"). I was referring to social habits. Chotto means 'a little bit'. So, if you go to japan, and anyone asks you "Do you like coffe", you have to say 'chotto'. Nobody says 'iie' (no). Hearing someone saying 'iie' is very strange. That's the ambiguity i was referring to.

About the tones. Didn't count them, but by the time i was studing it, i preceived so many.

But the thing i was saying, and returning to syntax, there is the exemple i was saying. Let's say you wanna count something. In fact, you have to think first on the shape of the thing you wanna count. Depending on the shape, you'll use a termination. If it is a pencil (somehow cylindric) you'll use different termination that when you count balls (spheric things). And there are like 80 terminations.

So, in some way, i the thing i've intuited is that the whole significance of the sentences are more distribuited, are more fuzzy.

*yes, i took three months on japanese, i'm not a expert*

Another thing it atonished me on japanese is that you either use "see" for saying that you're going to "read" a book. You say: i'm going to see a book. Is like, i don't know how to say it ... it's like "visual thinking" trying to crack language symbolism.

Another curious thing is that japanese imported the word "self-esteem", because they did'nt such a concept. Self-esteem is a newtonian/psychological construct, and after reading RAW "Quantum Psychology" I'm more convinced about it.

About how language can affect perception, here's a curious thing.
 
 
grant
11:40 / 16.05.06
Also— to s3r3bro— Japanese, as a noun, is insulting.

Pedantry:

"I can read Japanese. He speaks Japanese."

??
 
 
the permuted man
14:50 / 16.05.06
s3r3bro, you are correct on counters, which is why I didn't include it in my mass debunking. There's a decent explanation here. As for the rest:

So, if you go to japan, and anyone asks you "Do you like coffe", you have to say 'chotto'. Nobody says 'iie' (no).

Wrong. Not only is this not required by the language, it's not required by the culture. I believe you're referring to the 5th example here, which is a possible reply, although it would seem kind of odd regarding coffee (unless you were talking to some coffee evangelist and afraid of insulting their beliefs). The most common response if you didn't like coffee, would most literally translate to "No, I don't really like it that much". And again, just because it's a possible response, doesn't mean it's the only one--socially, or linguistically.

About the tones. Didn't count them, but by the time i was studing it, i preceived so many.

The language doesn't have tones, voiced/unvoiced, accents, stresses, or even long and short vowels (the beauty of a syllabary rather than an alphabet). What it does have -- as with most languages I'm aware of -- is a gradual shift in pronunciation of words over time. This isn't a tone as much as a morphology of popular pronunciation. Why and how this occurs is fascinating, I think.

Another thing it atonished me on japanese is that you either use "see" for saying that you're going to "read" a book. You say: i'm going to see a book. Is like, i don't know how to say it ... it's like "visual thinking" trying to crack language symbolism.

I think this is another case of a possible choice not being the only option. A quick google.co.jp on "hon wo yomu" (read) vs. "hon wo miru" (see) shows 2.25mil to 0.7mil. Clearly both are in usage, though I'm not sure I can clearly explain the differences. Read would always be used for describing hobbies (I like reading books and watching movies), but see would be used in active and immediate (That guy reading a book over there is Ted).

Another curious thing is that japanese imported the word "self-esteem", because they did'nt such a concept

Here, I have to balk a bit at "because they did'nt such a concept" which seems like we're coming back to the Sapir Whorf hypothesis (id)entity so correctly identified (har har) as pertaining to, if not encompassing, this thread. I don't like the idea "they", whom I can only assume you mean native Japanese speakers, had no concept of "self-esteem" because their language had no immediate analogue. Unfortunately, whether or not I like it has little bearing on its veracity, which is unknown to me.

Do you have any links to back up this anectdote? It's the first I've heard of it. A quick google search reveals this, but I find the article leaves much to be desired. It sounds like one person's (probably hasty) conclusion after visiting Japan. As he was using a translator, reflections on the language seem a bit suspect, and I'm constantly wary of stories of travel abroad taking a culture shock bias. People want to hear about wacky differences not how similar we all are despite our proximity. Although there is likely some truth there.

Also— to s3r3bro— Japanese, as a noun, is insulting.

Pedantry:

"I can read Japanese. He speaks Japanese."

Heh, yeah, I'm pretty sure (id)entity meant something along the lines of synecdochic substitution of a person's or groups of people's nationalities for the group themselves.
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
18:05 / 16.05.06
Hi subnaut. I have readed the Chotto thing in a blog of a spanish guy who has been working in japan for two years. Here it is. He says that in that two years, he has listened very few times the word "iee" (no).

The anechdote of the word self-esteem. I've readed it on this book (very nice book, BTW).

About the choice of read/see. Yeah. But it still atonishes me that you can make this choice.

About tones and all these things: yes, surely you're right.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
18:12 / 16.05.06
There's a very good novel, BANGKOK 8, where the author (a westerner, John Burdett) off-handedly posits that the Asian East will have a great advantage over Westerners in 21st century science because the nature of information on the microscopic and subatomic levels(genetics, M Theory, fuzzy logic)is much more in tune with the Eastern philosophical and cultural norms than with the classical West.
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
18:29 / 16.05.06
Henning, have you seen Sousei no Aquarion? Japanese kids right now are growing with concepts like "quantum-synchronization" and things like that.

I've been just reading all that Lilly's stuff and he says that japanese students were the more interested in his work. And what about DMT-interdimensional-bugs? The first time I've heard about them was here.

And then you have FLCL, that is a modern biography of a japanese Nikola Tesla.

Something's going on in Japan. BTW, i've heard that Japan is one of the countries that is considering the change of the calendar to a lunar one. :-?
 
 
Lurid Archive
18:49 / 16.05.06
the Asian East will have a great advantage over Westerners in 21st century science because the nature of information on the microscopic and subatomic levels(genetics, M Theory, fuzzy logic)is much more in tune with the Eastern philosophical and cultural norms than with the classical West.

But then why hasn't the advantage already kicked in? I suppose you can dismiss the fact that Quantum mechanics was developed by europeans by looking at resources, but if we look at the present day, comparing Japan to Europe on these concepts much more suited to eastern philosophy then one can only conclude that the effect is rather small.

Personally, I think this whole thesis is pretty weak. It relies on the ignorance of the scientific concepts involved so that any similarity, no matter how slight, is blown out of all proportion.
 
 
the permuted man
20:10 / 16.05.06
Thanks for the links, s3r3bro. The blogger cites a few examples and I don't think they're unreasonable, although I kind of wonder here, y a continuación dice “chotto” seguido de un silencio y luego más palabrería en japonés, what the hotel worker might have said afterwards. Did they just not understand? Maybe they paused and answered they were full or some sufficient euphemism like "Well, tonight's been very busy, you know..."

Otherwise the example of the photograph seems like the textbook example of the number 5 use, where you want to decline without offense. While it may be literally confusing, I imagine it's akin to saying "I'd rather you not" in English. It's passive, submissive, meaning I don't want to tell you not to, but were the choice truly left to me, I'd decline.

Anyway, I still think it's difficult to draw any conclusion from his observations. For starters, he was previously unacquainted with each person in these examples; two were business transactions; and furthermore he is not only a foreignor but seemingly a tourist. If I were to draw up the rules to English from similar situations I imagine I'd find equal amusement.

As for the book, I haven't read it, but I'm drawn to Ralph White's review, specifically:
Nesbett's anecdotal approach cannot yield sufficiently solid data to draw the conclusions which he does
there are stark differences between how some Westerners think and other Westerners think
Nesbett also ignores the differences between Chinese and Japanese, and even between the Chinese of different geographies and lingusitic groups
to his conclusion that: there is no characteristically Western or Eastern way of thinking. That is the stuff of folklore, to which Nesbett has made an admirable contribution

I don't know. There's no way for me to know if a single other person thinks differently from me, let alone an entire group of people.

It seems while the initial post compared quantum physics to the structure of the language, it's digressed to thought and culture (outsider perceived no less).

I think what elene was saying is much more relevant to the expressed (but perhaps not the intended or implied) topic.
 
 
the permuted man
20:22 / 16.05.06
Citing anime makes no sense. Anime/manga/video games are infamous for taking buzzwords from occult, fringe, or intellectual trends and applying them without regard for meaning or understanding.
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
20:36 / 16.05.06
Did they just not understand?
Well, that's the story is telling the blogger: how he, a foreigner, arrived to know about the 'real' use of 'chotto' (at the end of the post he says: "be careful, dictionaries doesn't always tell the truth") ;-)

It seems while the initial post compared quantum physics to the structure of the language, it's digressed to thought and culture
Well, that's why i'm assuming that in fact language shapes thought and culture.

I remember now watching a tvdocumental with Derrick de Kerchove saying that the way we read the language (meaning to the direction: left to the right or right to the left) actually shapes our perception.

I remember too some claims of people studying neurobiology of the musical experience (sorry, readed on a magazine, no linking) saying that the tones perceived as dissonant by easteners were perceived like harmonics in east, and viceversa.

And about the book: not anecdotycal data, i think. Experiments on cognitive psychology made by scholars. But, in the other hand, what's empirism? An ordered collection of anechdotes. Scientific method lies on anechdotes. And the argue of doing' distinctions between all asian groups. Well: let's separe pineapples from apples. Then, let's separe different kinds of apples and different kinds of pineapples. Why not?

Why not to cite anime/videogames/wathever? Aren't them a part of a culture? A reflection of topics inside the way one country things? The most advanced researches on parapshychology are being done by russians, chinese and japanese ... but well, yes, (i hear (id)entity approaching ...) this is Temple shit.
 
 
the permuted man
20:45 / 16.05.06
I regret my anime remark, but it wouldn't be fair to mod it. Let's just say I, personally, have some serious issues with anime/manga/video games.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
22:21 / 16.05.06
But then why hasn't the advantage already kicked in? I suppose you can dismiss the fact that Quantum mechanics was developed by europeans by looking at resources, but if we look at the present day, comparing Japan to Europe on these concepts much more suited to eastern philosophy then one can only conclude that the effect is rather small.
Aren't we seeing this advantage? Japan rivals the US in technological and scientific patents so perhaps they are more into application of these concepts than academic pursuit of them.

In the case of genetics, I'd say that asia may have the advantage as well despite the Korean stem cell/cloning scandal.
 
 
yami
06:54 / 17.05.06
Here's what I think are the interesting similarities between "eastern thought" and quantum mechanics:
  • They're both "inscrutable"
  • People enjoy making generalizations about them, drawing out broader philosophical implications, etc., whether or not they have any particular relevant expertise
... but I find the similarities interesting for purposes of cultural criticism, not science-y reasons, so I'll shut up now.
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:46 / 17.05.06
Aren't we seeing this advantage? Japan rivals the US in technological and scientific patents so perhaps they are more into application of these concepts than academic pursuit of them.

Sure, but why shouldn't it? Japan is a rich country with an educated population. We are going to have to agree to disagree here, but I think that the evidence of some kind of cultural advantage enjoyed by native Japanese speakers when it comes to QM is thin on the ground.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
20:07 / 17.05.06
Actually, the one theory I heard proposed that was somewhat related to this had more to do with music than with language. Apparently, oriental music conveys more information per "measure" than occidental (diatonic vs. chromatic or something, I'm no musician). There are indications of a neurological similarity between the way the mind processes math and music and this may lead to a particularly asian affinity for math.
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
20:23 / 17.05.06
Henning, i'm quite interested in that interview. Where did you hear it?
 
 
Henningjohnathan
21:03 / 17.05.06
It was second hand from a musician friend. I think she heard it on NPR perhaps, but I didn't follow up with any research.
 
  
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