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Periods are a thing of the past?

 
 
Tom Coates
11:09 / 27.07.01
Now this is a fascinating question - particularly for those of us who are both male and familiar with feminist politics and gender issues.

A group of scientists have discovered a way to make periods a thing of the past.

the article

quote:A new drug being developed would eliminate menstruation altogether, while still allowing women to get pregnant. Another drug would eliminate both periods and pregnancy.

A paper published in the July issue of the Journal of Human Reproduction shows that in rhesus macaque monkeys, one drug stopped menstruation while still allowing pregnancy. Another version of it stopped both ovulation and menstruation.


Now here's the question. Women's bodies have tended to be medicalised and their 'natural' processes turned into 'procedures'. Is something like this a positive move - in that it frees women from 'the curse', or is it a disasterous and biologically abusive idea based around making women feel like their biological processes are 'unclean' or 'a nuisance'. Is a women who never has a period a woman at all, in the sense that she has been 'changed' from the biology of her gender?

There seem to be advantages and anxieties surrounding such advances. What do people think here?
 
 
methylsalicylate
12:20 / 27.07.01
There was an excellent article about this, and the original development of the birth control pill, in the New Yorker last year (unfortunately before they went online, sorry).

I'm all for it. There is good evidence suggesting that suppressing the period may have knock-on effects for improving cancer rates in women (well, correllating the two, which I realise is not causation but is intriguing nonetheless).

Plus, periods are damned inconvenient: I have gone through stages of 'celebrating' my womanhood much as any other white, middle-class, right-thinking university-educated woman does but when you come down to it, you're leaking blood anywhere from 2 days to a week every month, and that sucks. The females of other species do not tend to be constantly in estrus as we are.
 
 
Mordant Carnival
18:26 / 27.07.01
*clutches hot water bottle to abdomen and swallows a handful of aspirin*

Bugger the Blood Mysteries- gimme some GIN!

Yeah. The only reason you're supposed to do that three weeks on, one week off when you take the pill is because somebody decided that periods are more "natural."

*hollow laughter*
 
 
Mr Tricks
18:27 / 27.07.01
I think it's a bad scene... especially considering the whole Medicine to CURE the Woman mentality... ever notice how no-one's bothered to invent a birth control pill for men?

I've met more than one woman who has been able to excercised conscious control over their menstration. This isn't like the celebrating sort of thing... I've met those women as well. In one case this frien could put it off then just be done with one sitting on the toilet... of course I'm taking her word for it, I never checked. She even claimed to be able to skip a month.

Another friend has been able to sence the arrivial of a need to spend a day in the bath & be done. There are also herbial uses...

But hey, as a rul of thumb I'll tend to distrust ANY pharmicutical "solution". whatever it may "solve" will probably be offset by what it causes...

Just emagine the effect of these substances being introduced into an eco-sphere...
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
09:06 / 28.07.01
quote:Originally posted by PATricky:
ever notice how no-one's bothered to invent a birth control pill for men?

Isn't there one being tested at the moment? I was under the impression that there was - and that it'd been tested on pigs first, or something like that.
 
 
Mordant Carnival
09:06 / 28.07.01
Yeah. I think it'll be avaliable in the next few years. There'll also be an implant for all you lucky chaps to wear under your skin. Of course it'll kill off your sex drive and neccessitate regular injections of testosterone, but I'm sure you won't mind...
 
 
Cat Chant
09:06 / 28.07.01
I had a thread on this in the conversation (here)

and am still undecided, though now very excited to find out that macaque monkeys menstruate.

(Yes, btw, the male pill has been tested on humans already and seems to work pretty well. The main problem I've seen reported is that no-one is going to believe their male one-night stand's assertion that he's on the Pill.)

A few random thoughts:

It's only been in the last 50-100 years that women in the West have had so damn many periods, I think, what with being pregnant less of the time, earlier menarche, and possibly later menopause (certainly less risk of dying in childbirth), so what looks like a "natural" phenomenon is highly conditioned already by medical & other technologies.

I can't get past the dichotomy between "periods aren't fun" and "abolishing periods is 'curing' womanhood thru institutional-medical intervention into women's bodies, and thus can be seen as on the far end of the spectrum which starts with clitoridectomy". This leads me to believe that either (a) there must be another way of thinking about periods which would allow me to get out of this impasse, or (b) the question medical technology/research should be focussing on is managing rather than abolishing periods. It would also be nice if the structure of the workplace changed so you could have a duvet day once a month or however often you needed it, and other associated institutional changes that would take the reality and varying experience of periods into account rather than just trying to make the problem go away completely. Hell, even taking VAT off tampons/towels would help [shaving products are VAT-free because men *have* to shave, whereas women are of course encouraged to bleed freely and openly all over the place, a beard being far more offensive than a big blood clot on the seat of the bus].

I like having a monthly cycle, it's an important part of my relationship to my body and to time, and I came off the Pill because it flattened that cycle out. It would be nice to make some of the side-effects go away: waking up in pain at 4am two nights a month and spending up to an hour whimpering till the drugs kick in plays havoc with your working day. Also the fun two days before I start where, if I'm walking across an enormous empty room and there's a table 50 feet away from my path with a mug on it, I will bump into the table, bruise my hip, and break the mug. And then probably cry. That can fuck off as well.

quote: Is a women who never has a period a woman at all, in the sense that she has been 'changed' from the biology of her gender?

Oh, God, yes. Otherwise we have to disqualify a whole bunch of women - not just transsexuals but women with odd menstrual patterns, Taylor's syndrome women (wrong number of chromosomes for the 'biology of their gender'), etc.
 
 
Mordant Carnival
09:06 / 28.07.01
The VAT on ST's and tamps is long gone, mate; last Budget, I think. It just wasn't publicized very heavily because all this stuff is... you know, all this woman's... well, it's... mucky, innit?
 
 
Mordant Carnival
09:06 / 28.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Deva:
...the fun two days before I start where, if I'm walking across an enormous empty room and there's a table 50 feet away from my path with a mug on it, I will bump into the table, bruise my hip, and break the mug. And then probably cry. That can fuck off as well.


A-fuckin'-men.

And, in my case, paranoia, anxiety, and depression for the week leading up to the big event, followed by two days of scream-and-gnaw-the-furniture cramps, followed by three days of griping backache and a sort of drained, scraped-out feeling. And eight days of bleeding, natch.

[ 28-07-2001: Message edited by: Mordant Carnival ]
 
 
Blank Faced Avatar
09:06 / 28.07.01
It's a curse from God, if you wriggle out of bleeding with drugs you're just asking for a swarm of locusts to replace it.
 
 
Mordant Carnival
09:06 / 28.07.01
Locusts? Bring 'em on.
 
 
Cat Chant
07:19 / 04.08.01
Oops! Ta, Mordant, I shall stop moaning about the VAT on 'sanitary items' forthwith. (That'll teach me to read the paper.)

And yes, the cramps can fuck off as well. And the depression. And at least a few of the days of bleeding. And the clots.
 
 
vickyra
12:24 / 04.08.01
HI, first off, 'cos I'm new, however this is my subject..absolutely my subject...the harrassment I've faced over the years for persisting in bringing menstruation into polite conversation is probably the root cause of many of my 'idiosyncracies' today.
Regards to VAT...erm...how about free??? I mean come on...you know if men had them they wouldn't be paying for towels/whatever...they probably wouldn't have them at all.
I agree that we probably have more menstruation running around than we used to...I believe for example that the 'swooning' which used to go on (apparently) was probably due to women starving themselves in the week before their period was due to stop it starting at all (because their body needed the iron). I can't see bloody rags being an acceptable feature of Victorian existence.
The clumsy thing you learn to live with...it's the continual adjustments which I feel become tiresome after a few years...one little change and whoops! when's it due?, why am I so stressed?, what the hell are you looking at?...etc.
The pill I feel is evil in a pill..they should work that around as a brand name...I can't be bothered right now...I must be due on .
Seriously though..I mean, I've done some strange mind altering pills before now...sometimes I wasn't sure what I was, nevermind who, but for a pure sad/melancholy/frustrated/worthless/feel like shitness, you can't beat the pill. I went on the sodding thing so I could have sex, ended up not wanting it, feeling fat and generally confused constantly. Fun it wasn't.
What I'm trying to say is messing with hormones is NOT a good thing...I mean it's as bad as GM products, released into the world before they know what they're about...they're still discovering hormones and their sources, so why should we assume they know how they work...really.
On a lighter note, I believe somewhere in South Africa they believe periods are evil and the women have to go to a special hut, also, if they go near the crops whilst menstruating the crop will fail, and men having sex with women on their periods will surely become ill. I say, as long as the hut has nice food and a big cushion, bring it on. (And keeping the more gullible men in fear doesn't hurt either )
 
 
Mordant Carnival
18:22 / 04.08.01
Hi there, VickyRa.

I guess the point I was trying to make a couple of posts back was that, evil mysogynistic (spelling?) medical profession aside, some women genuinely find periods not merely a hassle but actively disabling. My grandmother and my aunt both had to take to their beds when the painters were in and it so happens I take after that side of the family. Being made of rather sterner stuff than the last couple of generations I take a fairly robust approach to the problem, but the fact remains that even with shedloads of B6, extra calcium and whatall, I'm still pretty fucked up for about a quarter of my life. If someone can fix it that I have fewer weeks spent feeling like somebody's wringing out my guts like a facecloth then I'm all ears.

Oh, and if anyone wants to beetle off and start a new thread detailing ways to control the problem without gallons of scary hormones, I'll be internally grateful.

[ 04-08-2001: Message edited by: Mordant Carnival ]
 
 
VickyRa
19:10 / 04.08.01
Hi Mordant

I empathise completely...I've had similar problems myself, I know full well the point where you curl up moaning on your bed in tears cos it just won't go away, or walking...pacing, that used to be a good one...I remember at school, it would get so bad that on lunch break I had to physically pace round the perimeter of a classroom to try to stop the uncomfortable aching. School isn't very period friendly full-stop actually...my little sister and I both had the fun experience of havind a sanitary brick fall out in P. E. class.
I would love it to go away too, really...it just really scares me to have no control over my emotions, I know what an absolute tit I can be at certain times and it takes alot of apologies afterwards.
And I second the plea for a non hormonal remedy...non-hormonal contraception would also be nice (non-hormonal other than condoms I mean )
The person who said their friends could sit on a toilet and let it all go inone sitting, please ask them about the way this is done ...I'd pay for that one
 
 
grant
11:34 / 06.08.01
quote:Originally posted by VickyRa:
my little sister and I both had the fun experience of havind a sanitary brick fall out in P. E. class.


Geez, you Brits are tough. You know, in this country, we use fabric or cottony stuff....

Here, from healingpeople.com, some herbal/dietary methods for the menstrual cramps/PMS:

quote:eating principles:
• Vegan diet of 75% complex carbohydrates, 15% protein, 10% fat
• Increase consumption of complex carbohydrates to 70+% (Abraham, Guy. J. Repro. Med. 28:446-64, 1983)
• Decrease consumption of saturated fats: especially red meats and dairy products. PMS patients in one study were found to eat 79% more dairy products than normals. For PMS-A, where there is an excess of estrogen, decrease any endogenous estrogens. Overweight patients must shed the extra pounds. (Marz, p. 427, 1997)
• High fiber diet: increased fiber associated with increased binding and excretion of estrogens (Golden, B. N. Eng. J. Med. 307:11542-47, 1982)
• Decrease caffeine (Rossignol, A. Am. J. Public Health 75(11):1335-37, 1985; Rossignol, A. Am J. Public Health 79:67-9, 1989.)
• Decrease salt intake: to 3 g per day or less, especially for PMS-H.
• Decrease sugar intake

therapeutic foods
• Citrus peel, garlic, onions, legumes, kelp, apples, sesame seeds, brewer's yeast, alfalfa tablets
• Liver-cleansing foods: beets, carrots, artichokes, lemons, parsnips, dandelion greens, watercress, burdock root
• Dark green leafy vegetables: beet, radish, mustard, dandelion, collard greens, kale, spinach, chard
• Foods rich in Magnesium, Calcium, Vitamin B-complex
• Increase omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids: vegetable, nut, seed oils, salmon, herring, mackerel, sardines, walnuts, flaxseed oil, evening primrose oil, black currant oil

Stagnant Liver Qi or Stagnancy in the Liver channel:
• Foods that invigorate Qi, soothe the Liver, sour foods, Dispersing foods, foods that open channels, and invigorate Xue (Blood)
• Ginger, green onions, fennel, orange peel, spinach, walnuts, hawthorn berries, cinnamon (Ni, p. 152)

fresh juices:
• Carrot (Walker, p. 146)
• Carrot and spinach (Walker, p. 146)
• Carrot, beet, and cucumber (Walker, p. 146)
• Lemon juice in warm water (Shefi)

specific remedies:
• Tea from ginger, green onions, fennel, black pepper and orange peel, boil for 10 minutes. Drink three times daily starting one week before premenstrual symptoms (Ni, p. 152)
• Spinach soup boiled for 30 minutes (Ni, p. 152)
• Tea from hawthorn berries and cinnamon (Ni, p. 152)

avoid:
• Estrogenic foods: animal products, apples, cherries, olives, plums, carrots, yams, nightshade family (eggplant, peppers, tomatoes, potatoes, tobacco), peanuts, soy products, coconut, brown rice, barley, oats, wheat (See Materia Medica: Foods that contain estrogen-like sterols)
• Animal fats stimulate the growth of certain intestinal bacteria, which can hydrolyze conjugated estrogens thus rendering them active again. (Marz, p. 427, 1997)
• Arachidonic acid from animal fats is a precursor to PGF2, which is leuteolytic in women (decreases progesterone). (Dennefors, B., Sjogren, A., Hamberger, L. J. Clin. Endocrin. and Metab. 55:102-107, 1982)
• Meat, alcohol, spicy foods, fried foods, fatty foods, rich foods, salt, salty foods, sugar and sweet foods, chocolate, cold and raw foods in excess, excess fruit, shellfish, coffee, black tea, cola drinks, caffeine, dairy products, processed and refined foods
• Cabbage, cauliflower, broccoli, brussel sprouts, kale, sweet potatoes, turnips


supplements
• Vitamin B6: 100 mg three times daily, use two weeks before period.
(Doll, H., et al. Pyridoxine and the PMS: A randomized crossover trial. J Royal College of General Practitioners 39:326, 364-68, Sept. 1989; Abraham, G., Hargrove, J Infertility, 3(2):155-65, 1980)
• Vitamin B complex
• Vitamin E: 200-600 IU per day; 300 IU per day 2 month trial (London RS, et al. J Am Coll Nutr 1983;2(2):115-122.; London RS, et al. J Reprod Med 1987 Jun;32(6):400-404; London RS et al. J Am Coll Nutr 1984;3(4):351-356)
• Brewers Yeast complex: A recent double-blind clinical study of forty women suffering from mild or moderate premenstrual syndrome (PMS) found significant benefits from a nutritional supplement containing brewer’s yeast (1,000 mg), magnesium (400 mg), vitamin B6(1.5 mg), vitamin E (12 mg), folic acid (0.2 mg), iron (20 mg), and copper (4mg). Over the span of six consecutive menstrual cycles, the Brewers Yeast complex was significantly more effective than the placebo, as measured by reduction of premenstrual symptoms. This beneficial effect became more pronounced as the study progressed; by the sixth month premenstrual symptoms were reduced by an average of 82%, compared with a reduction of only 27% in the placebo group. (Facchinetti F, et al. Gynecol Obstet Invest 1997;43: 120-124.)
• Progesterone (orally or topically)
• Flax oil or EPO: evening primrose oil 500 mg three times daily OR flaxseed oil 1 tbsp. twice daily
• Lipotrophic factors: cysteine, methionine, choline, and inositol
• Calcium: 1200 mg per day In a 1998 three month long prospective double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled multicenter trial involving 466 women a daily dose of 1200 mg of elemental calcium, in the form of calcium carbonate, appeared to relieve key premenstrual symptoms such as mood swings, food cravings, aches and pains, and bloating. Researchers have postulated that PMS represents a clinical manifestation of functional hypocalcemia and secondary hyperparathyroidism due to inadequate levels of calcium consumption.
(Thys-Jacobs S, Alvir MJ. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1995 Jul;80(7):2227-2232; Thys-Jacobs S, et al. Am J Obstet Gynecol 1998 Aug;179(2):444-452; Wilson SA. J Fam Pract 1998 Dec;47(6):410-411.)
• Magnesium: 400-800 mg per day (preferably aspartate). Cofactor for PGE 1. Magnesium levels are usually normal in the serum, but intracellular erythrocyte magnesium is usually found to be lower in PMS women. Dairy and calcium interfere with magnesium absorption while sugar increases its excretion (Abraham, G. Magnesium Bulletin 1:68-73; Nicholas, A. First Int. Sympos. on Magnesium Deficiency in Human Pathology.)
• Tryptophan: 1-2 g per day, without food
• Tyrosine: 500 mg twice daily, especially for PMS-D. Tyrosine may help catecholamine synthesis
• Vitamin A 100,000-300,000 IU per day (2nd half of cycle) TOXIC DOSE! MONITOR CLOSELY (Block, 1960, p. 586ff)
• Consider thyroid
• Vitamin B3: Cofactor for PGE 1
• Zinc: Cofactor for PGE 1
• Digestive enzymes
 
 
grant
11:36 / 06.08.01
It's probably worth noting that from this long list (actually a short excerpt of what they had just on that one site) that the battle against the red visitor has been going on for millennia by all sorts of healers.
 
  
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