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Bisexual 101

 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:28 / 07.05.06
Ganesh I'm still a little uncertain about the presence of so much bi/queer stuff in this thread. On the one hand, it's absolutely appropriate because, God knows, homo intersects with bi and queer; on the other, I think there are distinct bi and queer identities (bi anyway, less certain about queer) distinct from homo, and I feel it might be useful to start a Bi 101 thread as a focus for questions about bi identity. Queer 101? Maybe. From a purely selfish point of view, I want to ask questions about bisexuality and possibly queer.

A few links for starters:
Those incredible invisible bisexuals, What's Love Got To Do With It? (Defining Bisexuality), something we can all agree on finally, those pesky fence-sitters, Are bisexual-identifying men more likely to be attracted to (and simulate) androgyny than their homo/hetero counterparts? Sadly the original thread that gave us the phrase 'pesky, invisible, bisexual fence-sitting scum' seems to be vanished. I guess it must have been lost in one of the board updates...
 
 
*
15:34 / 07.05.06
I'm a bit confused about my own relationship to bi identity. I identify as gay first, and bi second, which might be hard or confusing for some people. I'm attracted mostly to men but also to people of many genders, but I prefer men for relationships. I would feel bad about representing myself as bisexual because it seems to indicate a kind of equal-opportunity sexuality which I'm afraid is not where I'm at. At the same time, because bi invisibility sucks, I feel guilty about not being "out" as a bisexual. But I also want to break down the idea that fag-identified men can never have attraction for or sex with women.

I guess I want feedback from bi-identified bi people on my peculiar summer residence in bifag land.
 
 
Andria
17:01 / 07.05.06
I have a question which I'm a bit unsure about how to phrase (and even about what it is I want to ask), but it's something I've been thinking a lot about and am trying to make sense of. This question is based on my own experience and personality so I'll provide some background: I'm 16 years old (the reason I mention my age is that I'm curious if puberty and adolescence might factor into my confusion), male (though gender is an issue of some confusion for me as well) and would probably identify as bisexual (although I've had no sexual and hardly any romantic partners or experience at all). Also, as this will tie into the question, I might have some narcisstic tendencies: I often go back and forth between thinking I'm very good-looking, intelligent, etc., and the complete opposite, that I'm ugly, wrong and worthless and so on (I think this might be quite common with teenagers, though - is it?).

To the question: I've noticed that often when I become feel attracted to people I also feel an urge to look and dress like they do - this mostly happens with males, but sometimes also with females. The attraction here isn't attraction to people as persons, I should mention, but more aesthetical (although it's possible I also want to copy or become influenced by other qualities rather than the purely physical). I also find that oftenly the people I'm attracted to, if they are males, look a bit like me (which might be due to a conscious effort on my part to look like them - not sure which came first). A poster named faething mentioned something similar in the Male Androgyny thread: "Some sort of reverse narcissism. I want to be what I like."

So, in lack of a better way to ask, could anyone provide some thoughts or theories on why this is so, if it indeed is so at all? (I hope I didn't come across as egocentric here - other than that one other post I have no idea if this is a concern to anyone else at all, but I'm hoping the question and any possible answers to it might be of use to someone other than myself).
 
 
*
17:05 / 07.05.06
Janus, these are really good and interesting questions, and I'm excited about them, since I've had those feelings myself from time to time. I am thinking they deserve their own thread. If you feel up to starting it, I'll post in it.
 
 
Spaniel
17:52 / 07.05.06
Janus, I think Ganesh's input could also be useful, perhaps you should pm him.
 
 
Cat Chant
18:20 / 07.05.06
Ooh, interesting. Over in the Homo 101 thread (in this post), I gave a very short and simplistic definition of compulsory heterosexuality:

In this system, sex is held to determine gender, which determines sexual attraction, in a straight line: I am a man, so I act and appear masculine, and I desire women.

Another way of looking at it is that compulsory heterosexuality is based on the idea that 'wanting to have' and 'wanting to be' someone are mutually exclusive (similarly: I've had a few straight friends tell me that although they enjoy looking at attractive women, that's because they want to be like them, not because they want to fuck them). That idea is so fundamental in our culture, and completely thrown into disarray by homosexuality - and even more so, I think, by bisexuality.

So, like (id), I think you're onto something there.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
18:22 / 07.05.06
Janus: I'm fascinated by this, and like id, think it deserves its own thread, within which I will try to contribute.

Id: I think your question is a really good one.

I recall aeons ago, in one of the Bi threads, a poster saying that though they'd had and enjoyed sexual experiences with more than one gender and were likely to continue to do so, they wouldn't self id as bisexual because they only felt emotional desire/connection to one gender. They felt that the term 'bisexual' wasn't accurate, as well as that they didn't have the 'right' to use it.

One way around this I've heard, is people describing them very specifically/literally as bi-sexual and homo/hetero-emotional.

Another point I'd raise is that there are self-identified bisexuals (of my acquaintance, and in the wider world/literature) whose dynamic is the same as the one you're talking about. So I guess part of this is whether the 'bisexual' is a word you click with.

For some of the people I know, myself included, a good chunk of the bit of bisexual identity they do comes from active and energising participation in a bi community, a feeling of connection to that community, that it's their space, as much as it does from the specific desires. Finding community over the vast range of desires/patterns that crop up in bicommunities, basically.

A little thing on the identifying thing: I identify as Queer more than Bi, which is confusing, given that I am one of Barbelith's shouty bi people, help run a bi group, do a fair bit of bi activism and think it's very important to do so.

If it didn't make me think of 70s flares and beards, I might feel more comofortable using 'pansexual', as it's closer to where I am. Queer is still, though, distinctively important to me.

So, although I really don't like the word bisexual (mainly for its implication of only two sexes and emphasis on sexual activity to the denigration of possible social/cultural specificities (as per debates about homosexual vs.gay), I do think that it's important for now to do activism and live under a bisexual banner, to fight that invisiblity.

It gets confusing at times.

Which perhaps connects a little to your point about wanting on the one hand to not be 'denying' a possible label as bisexual, but also to be doing something that muddies the borders of attraction among fag-id'd men.

Different agendas/priorities clashing, maybe. Negotiating these things is tricky, to say the least.

Ideally for me, Queer would be enough, as it describes most accurately for me, how my desires work, how my sexuality and my cultures and dynamics work. Also: it's a verb/performance/process and that's much more how I feel than a noun/label/neat description.

But right now, I feel that bi invisibility is a narrative I want to fight, so 'representing' as bi is part of the deal.

Bot sure if that's an asnwer, but it's a perspective.

(have just come back from London Bifest, so am full of the joys and drawbacks of bi community space atm!)
 
 
Shrug
19:16 / 07.05.06
What are the instances of closeted bisexuals (male or female) active in heterosexual relationships openly and homosexual relationships surreptitiously? There probably isn't statistical analysis of this type of thing but it is something I've encountered from time to time. Is it quite common for bisexuals to remain closeted as to their same-sex leanings?
 
 
yami
07:22 / 08.05.06
I really don't like the word bisexual (mainly for its implication of only two sexes and emphasis on sexual activity to the denigration of possible social/cultural specificities

Heh, that's actually why I use the word "bisexual" over "pansexual" or other gender-inclusive language. I have strongly dimorphic preferences: I go in for one type of man, another type of woman, and not so much for ambiguous/other gender presentations. I don't think this implies support for binary sex/gender any more than heterosexuality implies support for patriarchy, it just means I'm wired funny. And I do see it as primarily a sexual/romantic/personal identity, rather than a social or cultural identity.

That said, there are many terms whose boundaries I feel compelled to patrol, but "bisexual" isn't one of them - I think because I view it as hopelessly context-dependent anyway. I expect different things from someone who tells me they're bisexual when we're on a date vs. at a one-night-stand meat market vs. just chatting about our lives; I identify variously as queer (when I'm trying to smash heteronormativity but the details are nobody's business), bisexual (when I'm trying to describe who I might be attracted to), a Kinsey 2 (when I'm trying to describe my typical patterns of sexual and emotional attraction), or I just mention my relationships and desires as they come up in conversation and obstinately refuse to label myself. I can't think of a good reason to privilege any one of those situations above the others, which makes a certain amount of summer residence inevitable, I think.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
12:20 / 08.05.06
I have strongly dimorphic preferences: I go in for one type of man, another type of woman, and not so much for ambiguous/other gender presentations. I don't think this implies support for binary sex/gender any more than heterosexuality implies support for patriarchy, it just means I'm wired funny.

Very good point. Sorry if my spiel made it sound like I was prescribing to others, really wasn't intentional.

Know self-i'd bi people who describe their desires as (eg for a f-identified person)'when I'm attracted to women, I feel like a lesbian, when I'm attracted to a man, I feel like a het man.

Not trying to insist that one model is somehow more 'worthy' than the other.

I guess one of the things I do like about 'bisexual' as a term is that the longer I'm around bi-identified space, the more that 'bisexual' comes to signify an umbrella term that is open to interpretation, discussion, describes a range of practices.

Perhaps where I'm uncomfy is where outside of that space, 'bisexual' is assumed to be have a v.specific meaning, one I don't identify very closely with.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
12:54 / 08.05.06
ps. many thanks for not snarking, which my level of assumption probably deserved!
 
 
Spaniel
13:01 / 08.05.06
As this is a 101 thread I'm going to ask an entry level question that I know the answer to.

Why do people keep using this word "identify"? Surely you are bisexual.
 
 
Ex
13:26 / 08.05.06
One answer: Because people can have the same kinds of feelings of attraction and desire, and similar kinds of sexual behaviours, but chose to call themselves by different names.

So outside you and your desire/behaviour, you might be influenced by the particular meaning you associate with an identity label (potentially the only bisexual you've ever heard of is David Bowie, but you know some very interesting lesbians). Or you might want to express a connection to the social groups you interact with - or a difference from them. You might chose an identity label because you think it describes you most accurately, or because you think it's the one people will most widely understand. You might be making a political point.

For bisexuality in particular, there's a big difference between 'people who identify as bisexual (calling yourself bi, without any necessary connected feelings or behaviour) and 'behaviourally bisexual people' (who have sex with men and women, and who might identify in a number of ways). The latter phrase crops up a lot in social science and health writing. It's a tricky, but useful distinction, because sex advice and healthcare projects often want to reach people who are 'behaviourally bisexual' but don't think of themselves using that identity label (see also 'men who have sex with men' and 'women who have sex with women' as ways of getting round this distinction).

Good question - will think more about it...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:33 / 08.05.06
You might be bisexual but not willing to tell people you're bisexual, you may be married but regularly slip off to New York leather bars. Identify is 'political telling'.
 
 
Spaniel
13:48 / 08.05.06
But is it always, though? That explanation doesn't seem to fit entirely with what Ex has to say above.
 
 
yami
21:26 / 08.05.06
I think there's an important distinction to be made between internal and external identification. Many coming out narratives have a moment when the teller realizes they are X, and I think it's fair to say that at that point they identify as X, even when they're still telling people Y or Z. Identification is a moment of self-recognition which may or may not be communicated to the outside world; identification is also the process of communicating one's self-recognition to the outside world.

Also though but, I think we should be wary of relying too much on this narrative, where internal identification comes first and is the most authentic and integrityful. People claim outward identities (and that's a kinda crap way of putting it, but my articulatismo is failing me today) that may differ from their internal process of self-recognition for all sorts of reasons, some noble, some cowardly, some entirely pragmatic. Sometimes the chosen term seeps inward, sometimes it doesn't, but external identities should be taken seriously on their own terms, not just as varyingly accurate representations of one's Twue Inner Being.

GGM: You're just lucky I wasn't feeling very clever
 
 
Shrug
00:47 / 09.05.06
Is it quite common for bisexuals to remain closeted as to their same-sex leanings?

As an addendum to my previous question, or vice-verse; closeted as to their opposite sex leanings. (I don't agree there is a need for either, but I suppose a want for, perhaps, what is "regarded" as a pure sexual identity could factor. The option to remain within the normative gaze rather than the normative gays?)

Apologies, I hope I'm not abusing low-snark privilege with obvious and/or insulting questions. (I'm interested, if not very informed.) And refutations/corrections of anything I've said or questioned would be most welcome.
 
 
yami
03:01 / 09.05.06
Shrug, I'd meant to address your question, and then found myself writing something that didn't make sense, so went off on the identification tangent - I'll try again

I think bi invisibility can function as a closet. If I mention a boyfriend, people assume I'm heterosexual until I say otherwise; I don't usually go out of my way to correct them. Occasionally, they assume I'm a lesbian when I mention a girlfriend or come out as queer; I don't correct them on that either. I suspect there's been some confusion in the department rumor mill, but eh, people can think what they like, their crazy assumptions are none of my business.

But on your central point: I'm not out to my family. Until recently, this has cost me almost nothing in terms of hiding my relationships, because I've had monogamous boyfriends, like, 95% of the time. Were I a closeted lesbian, I probably would've cracked long ago from the strain of so much sneakiness. So I think it's fair to say that staying closeted is in some ways easier for bisexuals - especially for those of us who lean slightly het anyway. Whether this translates into a significant increase in the actual number of people in the closet is anybody's guess but mine...
 
 
P. Horus Rhacoid
04:04 / 09.05.06
How would people define the distinction between bisexual and bicurious? I've checked bicurious out on wikipedia but the lines seem pretty blurry, and anyway I'd like to hear the opinions of people here on the subject.
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
05:12 / 09.05.06
I've always taken the "curious" to suggest that someone's not sure, but they're looking to try to see if it works for them. Which I agree with. I don't think there should be a stigma attached to discovering your sexuality.

Not sure how to word this, but I percieve (and I may be totally mistaken) that there's something of a prejudice against people not being sure if they're hetero- or homosexual, and trying having relationships with people of either gender. I think that there's a certain prejudice there that portrays them as being "tourists" (and I will admit that there are probably a lot of people who ARE just sleeping around with both men and women for the pleasure or novelty of it).

I'm mainly straight, but I do catch myself looking at guys every now and then. Not a clue if I'm bi, I know I'm not gay (I rather like women). But...dunno. Not overly confused with feelings, but...well, I was raised and instilled with a very bad case of "what would the neighbours think?" (seriously, I have a terminal fear of doing anything embarassing in public, even in foreign cities...becuase god forbid I should see any of those people again in any setting), so its something I'm not sure I'd ever get the courage to explore. What does that make me? Curious? I suppose so, I am not sure.

...errr...and my apologies for what has essentially been a non-researched mini-rant that may be percieving things that don't actually exist. I'm going to go study about Roman gladiators now...at least that's something I know about. Sexuality...nuh uh, far outside my area of expertise.
 
 
Ganesh
11:17 / 09.05.06
I'm actually having trouble framing my question, and can't quite decide whether it's already been asked/answered. Several posters have touched on it, particularly Ex:

For bisexuality in particular, there's a big difference between 'people who identify as bisexual (calling yourself bi, without any necessary connected feelings or behaviour) and 'behaviourally bisexual people' (who have sex with men and women, and who might identify in a number of ways). The latter phrase crops up a lot in social science and health writing. It's a tricky, but useful distinction, because sex advice and healthcare projects often want to reach people who are 'behaviourally bisexual' but don't think of themselves using that identity label (see also 'men who have sex with men' and 'women who have sex with women' as ways of getting round this distinction).

I think one of the difficulties for bi-identifying people is this distinction. I wanted to ask about people who identify as bi but are not 'behaviourally bisexual'. This is perhaps most famously exemplified in the person of Brett Anderson, of Suede, who said he was "bisexual - but I've never had a homosexual experience". Is it fair to say that, compared with some other sexual labels, bisexuality and bisexual people are more likely to define themselves in terms of potential than as an accurate reflection of sexual behaviour?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:36 / 09.05.06
Is it fair to say that, compared with some other sexual labels, bisexuality and bisexual people are more likely to define themselves in terms of potential than as an accurate reflection of sexual behaviour?

If you're celibate or have never had a sexual experience you're just as likely to call yourself homosexual or heterosexual. I think that most people identify in terms of their more significant attraction. Potential is certainly a part of that. I don't think it's more likely that bisexual people define themselves in this way though.
 
 
Ex
11:44 / 09.05.06
For me, as one of the above, I'd say I do define in terms of behaviour - it's just a wider range of behaviours than 'having sex'. Even if I'm really enthusiastic I can't spend all the time having sex. But I do spend most of the day interracting with people, and those interractions are influenced by my attractions. As a quick example, I've had (today) a particularly nice moment negotiating with an androgynous woman on the tube as to who was going to let who through the doors first, and I've offered less obviously flirtatious but definitely potentially 'charged' customer service to a whole range of ages and genders. I understand the question, and it's interesting, but for me, I'm behaving bisexually all the time.

I've found the 'potential' idea less immediately relevant and harder to quantify. I sometimes end up in a conversation where someone will say: 'But the point is, if your relationship finished or your partner got hit by a bus, you might go out with a man or a woman next. Yes?' Which I've found really unsettling, because however well-intended, it seems to position my bisexuality as something that hovers in the background like a cloud of vulturous doom. The idea that I'm still moving in the world and interracting with people in somewhat sexual ways is much more relevant to me. And much more fun than having to conjure up the vision of a bus-struck partner to describe my sexuality.
 
 
Jackie Susann
12:09 / 09.05.06
Ganesh, given the extremely large porportion (including myself) of people who identify as either gay or straight but have, in fact, engaged more or less recently in sex acts with persons whose gender does not correspond to their ostensible sexual preference (I am drunk - did that make sense?) I think that it is not uncommon for people's expressed sexual identity to refer to an idea rather than a reality. Generalisation based on my experience, etc., etc. So I reckon it is not particularly more common for bis, although the acknowledgement of discrepancy is. You would have more trouble, obviously, finding someone saying 'I am a straight bloke, although I have had sex with men', than, 'I am a bisexual bloke, although I have not had sex with men.' I don't think this proves the former situation is statistically less common.
 
 
Shrug
23:58 / 09.05.06
Thanks for the response yami. There is a large amount of uncomfortableness involved in having a conversation with ones parents about personal sexual proclivities, if it was in any way avoidable I would have done so too. I also take your point about bi invisibility working in that way. Recent events have brought forth a new appreciation of the difficulties of negotiating bisexuality that previously went unnoticed to me.
Thusly, this thread has been very interesting to me.

Random musing:
My own heterosexual leanings are so slight that I'd deem them insignificant and I don't feel the need to mention them, generally. And as time goes by, there seems less and less chance of a heterosexual occurrence (or serious heterosexual relationship) in my life again. I've never considered identifying as bi, though. (It would seem too far away from my life at the moment).
 
 
Ganesh
00:14 / 10.05.06
Thanks to everyone who's engaged with my question.

Generalisation based on my experience, etc., etc. So I reckon it is not particularly more common for bis, although the acknowledgement of discrepancy is. You would have more trouble, obviously, finding someone saying 'I am a straight bloke, although I have had sex with men', than, 'I am a bisexual bloke, although I have not had sex with men.' I don't think this proves the former situation is statistically less common.

That makes sense - although I wonder whether the significantly more 'gaying' effect of 'admitting' sex with men (if one is male) plays a part in both examples. Based on my own observations of the media treatment of male bisexuality as opposed to female bisexuality (I'm thinking in particular of the coverage of UK politician Simon Hughes, where an 'admission' of having sex with men was automatically and repeatedly conflated with his being secretly homosexual), I'd imagine that saying one has had sex with men while claiming to be anything other than homosexual would be the more difficult route in terms of being believed/accepted. Bisexual women, on the other hand, seem to be permitted more flexibility in terms of not being semi-permanently 'marked' as gay if they say they've had sex with women.

Is this a reasonable comment on male vs female bisexuality, or do people feel I'm overgeneralising?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:45 / 16.05.06
Ganesh Is it fair to say that, compared with some other sexual labels, bisexuality and bisexual people are more likely to define themselves in terms of potential than as an accurate reflection of sexual behaviour?

Perhaps, as one can't have bisexual sex like one could have 'gay' or 'straight' sex.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:56 / 16.05.06
Surely you can, you just need more people there at the time?
 
 
Mourne Kransky
15:06 / 16.05.06
That would be a sexy party.
 
 
*
18:34 / 16.05.06
%or you could have teh sex with sum1 who is 1 of those ppl who is like both sexs at once like a tranny or a humaphrodit that's like bisexul sex rigt?%

The number of times I've been the object of the amazing realization "So, if I have sex with a man, that makes me gay, and if I have sex with a woman, that makes me straight, so if I have sex with you, it would make me bisexual!" or some variant thereon boggles the mind.
 
 
alas
19:19 / 16.05.06
Bisexual women, on the other hand, seem to be permitted more flexibility in terms of not being semi-permanently 'marked' as gay if they say they've had sex with women.

I think this is right.
 
 
yami
19:33 / 16.05.06
Is this a reasonable comment on male vs female bisexuality, or do people feel I'm overgeneralising?

A figure I hear bandied about is that there are about twice as many female self-identified bisexuals as male - and that's less of an imbalance than what I'd estimate from personal experience. For, I think, more or less the reasons you suggest, Ganesh: Lesbian sex is less stigmatized, especially for women who remain sexually available and attractive to men. Bisexual men are disgusting, bisexual women are titillating. Or: women are considered "naturally" attractive (i.e., sex objects), men are not. Or: it's not really sex without a penis.

Entity, you realize that you have a moral obligation to use your making-people-bisexual superpowers for the cause of True Justice, right? The world needs more bisexuals! Specifically, it needs more of the people I have the hots for to be bisexual, but I swear I never, ever confuse my sexual fantasies with True Justice. Really.
 
 
*
19:45 / 16.05.06
Yami, sweetie, if I could REALLY make people bisexual, I don't think I'd bother labeling my sexual fantasies as True Justiceā€”I'd just throw the concept of justice out the window. I'm not THAT moral.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
02:12 / 17.05.06
Well, if it ever happens (id), I'll totally sign on to be your sidekick/cultist/whatever.
 
  
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