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Mexico decriminalizes.... well.. a lot of drugs

 
 
Baz Auckland
01:16 / 29.04.06
From Yahoo:

MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - Possessing marijuana, cocaine and even heroin will no longer be a crime in Mexico if the drugs are carried in small amounts for personal use, under legislation passed by Congress.

The measure given final passage by senators in a late night session on Thursday allows police to focus on their battle against major drug dealers, the government says, and President Vicente Fox is expected to sign it into law.

Under the legislation, police will not penalize people for possessing up to 5 grams of marijuana, 5 grams of opium, 25 milligrams of heroin or 500 milligrams of cocaine.

People caught with larger quantities of drugs will be treated as narcotics dealers and face increased jail terms under the plan.

The legal changes will also decriminalize the possession of limited quantities of other drugs, including LSD, hallucinogenic mushrooms, amphetamines and peyote -- a psychotropic cactus found in Mexico's northern deserts.

The legislation came as a surprise to Washington, which counts on Mexico's support in its war against drug smuggling gangs who move massive quantities of cocaine, heroin, marijuana and methamphetamines through Mexico to U.S. consumers.

A delegation from the U.S. House of Representatives visited Mexico last week and met with senior officials to discuss drug control issues, but was told nothing of the planned legislative changes.


I can't see the US being too happy about this, but I wnoder if it will make a difference in the battle with the drug cartels? More resources? Or just more tourism?
 
 
*
21:27 / 29.04.06
I'm thinking it's going to aggravate our immigration and border patrol issues.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
23:14 / 29.04.06
I applaud this policy on the part of Mexico.

However, I really don't think the "build a wall!!!" lunatics needed any more ammo. It used to be just "Damn Mexicans comin' over here takin' our jobs!" Now it's going to be "Damn Mexicans comin' over here takin' our jobs and hookin' our kids on smack!"

I may turn on FOX News a little later, once I've had a couple more drinks.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
06:14 / 30.04.06
Hmm- I think legalization works better than any other system- the drugs problems we have today being down to the cultural "illegal" status of certain drugs rather than any natural attributes- but other here know more than me.
 
 
Triumvir
14:04 / 30.04.06
Legba and Jake pretty much summed up my thoughts on the issue. Its a noble stance on Mexico's part, but its just going to aggrivate border and immigration issues.
 
 
Slim
03:33 / 01.05.06
Its a noble stance on Mexico's part

Noble? How?

I'm not exactly sure what effect this will have on the United States but I can't imagine that it will make things better.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
03:46 / 01.05.06
I'm not exactly sure what effect this will have on the United States but I can't imagine that it will make things better.

And I'm not exactly sure that the Mexican government's motive for this policy was to make things in the United States better. I'm actually quite certain that it was to make things in Mexico better.
 
 
Baz Auckland
05:32 / 01.05.06
Since such a large amount of American drugs come via Mexico, I can't see this alone having much of an effect on border laws and all that.

It is good for a government to admit that prosecuting drug users isn't going to change anything in the long run, but focusing more attention of prosecuting dealers and smugglers is...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:06 / 01.05.06
I'm actually quite certain that it was to make things in Mexico better.

Well said!
 
 
Queer Pirate
01:57 / 02.05.06
Well, that's a good start. The more countries will adopt more progressive stances towards drug users, the easier it will be to demonstrate that these more open stances are better at dealing with drug addiction issues, since we'll have empirical examples to rely on. This will deprive the U.S. government of ammunition for its war on drugs that is used to legitimize all sorts of dubious foreign interventions.

I think it's important to point out that prohibition has never really prevented people from getting the drugs in the first place and that this shouldn't change much to the situation anyway.

Of course, the bigots will be screaming murder, but they will whenever someone tries to do something sensible in regards with the drugs issue, no matter tame it is - and let's not forget that mere decriminalization of simple possession is not that much of a big step.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
07:17 / 02.05.06
People assume a lot about Americans. This isn't even a blip on American news, and I don't think the anti-immigration people have even bothered to work it into their spiel. Good on Mexico though.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
08:19 / 02.05.06
Personally I think the legalisation, and possibly the government, or government-licensed synthesis of what are presently illegal drugs would be the single most devastating blow that America and her allies could strike in the soi disant War on Terror. The amount of money, influence and experience (of smuggling) it would remove from undesirable hands would be astonishing. I doubt it would make much difference to rates of addiction, and it would probably reduce crime rates and mortality rates if clean, cheap drugs were available and, for instance, some of the money currently spent on combatting drug dealers was spent on public education and rehabilitation programmes.
But hey, %bombs are probably better%.
 
 
alejandrodelloco
22:27 / 02.05.06
Kind of going off of what Kay said, it is interesting to see libertarian-right groups in the US like the CATO institute and progressives come out for decriminalization for these same reasons, but the fact of the matter is the more libertarian area of the spectrum (and I mean that in the political compass sense of the word, not libertarian party) has too little representation in mainstream US politics. Bleh.
 
 
Baz Auckland
04:25 / 04.05.06
Oops. Spoke too soon...

Fox refuses to sign bill

Mexican President Vicente Fox refused to sign a drug decriminalization bill Wednesday, hours after U.S. officials warned the plan could encourage "drug tourism

"U.S. officials ... urged Mexican representatives to review the legislation urgently, to avoid the perception that drug use would be tolerated in Mexico, and to prevent drug tourism," U.S. Embassy spokeswoman Judith Bryan said.

Bryan said the U.S. government wants Mexico "to ensure that all persons found in possession of any quantity of illegal drugs be prosecuted or be sent into mandatory drug treatment programs."

The legislature has adjourned for the summer, and when it comes back, it will have an entirely new lower house and one-third new Senate members following the July 2 elections, which will also make the outgoing Fox a lame duck.
 
 
Queer Pirate
01:23 / 05.05.06
Ah, separation of legislative and executive powers...

It should be said however that if cities keep the power of fining people caught for simple possession, then such a bill only becomes a mean of exerting repression without having to go through all the trouble of criminal prosecution.
 
 
Char Aina
09:13 / 05.05.06
urged


what a world a word can hide...
 
 
Slim
19:38 / 06.05.06
And I'm not exactly sure that the Mexican government's motive for this policy was to make things in the United States better. I'm actually quite certain that it was to make things in Mexico better.

I'm going to use this quote the next time someone complains about how a U.S. policy negatively affects another nation. We live in a global community and if the U.S. is going to be (rightly) criticized for not acting that way, we cannot automatically excuse Mexico from the same criticism.

I remain unconvinced that this plan will effectively solve the real problems associated with drug use. As long as drugs remain out of the control of the government or some other responsible distributor, violence, accidental overdosing, and the transfer of diseases will still occur. The Mexican government has claimed that the policy will free up its resources to fight the gangs and cartels but will it do it? I have my doubts.

Clearly, drug-war policies need to be changed. I just think Mexico is not going about it in the right manner. How does this policy prevent the potential harms to drug users? People will still die from gang violence and still accidently overdose from tainted drugs.

The big question revolves around how you want to fight the war on drugs. Do you want to hurt drug dealers or do you want to help drug users? Mexico's proposed legislations may do the former, although if the U.S. and all its resources can't stop the drug trade I don't see how the Mexican government can. Haven't efforts by the U.S. shown that pursuing avenue is at best difficult and at worst a fool's errand? I don't think it will help drug users other than keeping them out of jail and really, that's not much help at all.
 
 
Axolotl
12:53 / 07.05.06
I don't know. Not being thrown in jail for smoking a joint would be quite helpful.
I think there's a fairly strong argument (ignoring the larger issues of whether criminalising drugs is an effective policy) for focusing resources on dealers rather than users, which presumably the proposed law would have allowed the law enforcement agencies to do.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
03:02 / 08.05.06
I'm going to use this quote the next time someone complains about how a U.S. policy negatively affects another nation.

It's usually US foreign policy, though. Not domestic.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
14:38 / 10.05.06
slim wrote:
The big question revolves around how you want to fight the war on drugs.

no, it really doesn't. the war on drugs isn't a war on drugs, it's a war on people. drugs happen to be the poster child (remember the red menace? the cold war? the war on terror?).

I live in a city who's downtown Eastside has the highest concentration of HIV+ people (hard drug users and sex-trade workers). The problem with drug use is the desperation of its users, and its perpetuation. How does the method of waging war address this in the least?

more Slim-isms:
As long as drugs remain out of the control of the government or some other responsible distributor, violence, accidental overdosing, and the transfer of diseases will still occur.

you scare me, dude. you think Pfizer is a responsible distributor? I know more people who've picked up illnesses in hospitals and kitchens than from drug use.

we used to be tied to the harvest when it came to drug use. Whatever tobacco you harvested was what you got to smoke until the end of the next year. We had to ration it, and think in the long term. Today, I can buy cigarettes within a 1 minute walk of my front door at any time of day or night.

the problem is more than figuring out how to fight a war (enough with the confrontational approach already). It's about making conditions better for all of us. how do you do that declaring war?

you want a war on drugs?
should we declare war on the 24-hour stores?
should we declare war on alcohol distillers?
should we declare war on sugar refiners?

egads
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
14:40 / 10.05.06
amendment:
I wrote:
I live in a city who's downtown Eastside has the highest concentration of HIV+ people

it's the neighbourhood with the highest concentration of HIV+ in North America i.e. Vancouver.
 
 
Slim
22:48 / 10.05.06
no, it really doesn't. the war on drugs isn't a war on drugs, it's a war on people. drugs happen to be the poster child...The problem with drug use is the desperation of its users, and its perpetuation. How does the method of waging war address this in the least?

Doesn't my statement that the choice lies between hurting dealers or helping users indicate that the focus of the war is on people? I'm not too clear on what you're getting at- are you saying that the root causes and problems of drug use have to do with poverty, hopelessness, inequality, etc. and that we should work to eliminate these?

If so, I would agree with you. But that doesn't mean that there other problems should be ignored. Policies to limit violence and disease still need to be hammered out.

you scare me, dude. you think Pfizer is a responsible distributor? I know more people who've picked up illnesses in hospitals and kitchens than from drug use.

You might have been thinking about Pfizer. I was thinking along the lines of a non-profit NGO. And of course you know people who have picked up illnesses in hospitals..they're full of sick people. It's also worth mentioning that in one paragraph you tied hard drug use to HIV and in the next you seemed to dismiss the relationship between drug use and disease.

Your point on creating a better world for us all is well taken. But you can fight the cause of drug use as well as the results of it simultaneously.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
05:18 / 11.05.06
The big question revolves around how you want to fight the war on drugs.

no, it really doesn't. the war on drugs isn't a war on drugs, it's a war on people.


Oh, c'mon. Are you serious? What exactly do you mean here? Or are you just being glib?
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:42 / 11.05.06
Well, he's right in the sense that you can't declare war on a chemical substance (although it tends not to fight back, which admittedly makes it the kind of enemy that the western world has traditionally preferred to wage open war upon). Any war on anything will be against people.

Am I alone in thinking that the above bill wouldn't actually make anything any better for anyone, assuming Fox did sign the thing? Effectively, it decriminalises the possession of small substances, so that the police don't have to spend ages arresting and prosecuting small scale users/abusers. The sale of such substances is still illegal, and possession of more than a small amount is still illegal. The substance itself is still illegal to possess, they've just decided arbitrarily to prevent police from having powers to arrest small users. Presumably they'll be out there with a set of scales or something hanging next to the nightstick...

The article also talks about increased jail terms for dealers (ie, anyone possessing "illegal" quantities of a narcotic, presumably to sell to a small scale user who can then walk around with it in his shirt pocket). This isn't legalisation in any sense, it's passing into law the same kind of 'common sense approach' that English and police and judicial branches have been adopting when finding people in possession of 'personal use' amounts of weed, speed, etc - that it's up to the individual copper/force/judge whether to prosecute. The article goes on to say that this case-by-case system - the one the UK uses - is already in use in Mexico.

What's the point of introducing it into legislation? It muddies the playing field for all kinds of reasons. Is it ok to buy drugs in that quantity, or just possess them (ie, if you're caught buying half a gram of coke, can you be arrested? If the guy selling it to you only has that half gram on him, can he be arrested?)? Either they're legalising certain kinds of currently illegal drug, or they're keeping them illegal.The drug barons still control and war over the supply, and it's no less dangerous to be any part of that trade. Hundreds of innocent people will still die because of the drug trade every year. There will still be poverty-stricken addicts in Mexico City. The only difference will be that the police will no longer have the option of arresting them, unless of course they're in possession of a microgram more than is legally permitted, in which case suddenly they can put them away for being dealers.

Really, this is a ridiculous idea. It doesn't make any kind of sense. The common-sense approach of not jailing small time users is a good one (a friend of mine recently spent the night in the cells for possession of a wrap of speed, and was then given a lift home in the morning without even a caution), but this is just stupid.
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:10 / 12.05.06
What's the point of introducing it into legislation?

Well, mostly, clear the room in the courts, so that they can focus on bigger criminal offenses, thus speeding up nad reducing costs of the whole legal process; and reduce Police corruption (who was never harassed by cops trying to squeze money out of you for finding a single joint in you? I haven't, but that was sheer luck, to bew honest)
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:40 / 18.05.06
It'd never reduce police corruption, it'd make it worse. All anyone would have to do is claim you had more on you than you did, and that now the law's changed you can be done for dealing if you've carrying (for example) over half a gram of coke. Even more of an arm-twister. Seriously telling me that police corruption wouldn't stretch to changing a 1/2 to a 1 on a handwritten report?

As for reducing time taken up in the courts - maybe. However, given that the same system is in use at the moment, just on an unofficial 'guideline' basis, exactly how much time? And is it worth the inevitable challenge to the law that'll occur when some bright spark brings up the massive discrepancy between illegal and legal when it comes to exactly the same drug?
 
 
eye landed
21:12 / 11.01.08
pro decriminalization:

reduction of fear and conflict for casual users
reduction in administration costs
issued tickets can provide revenue
fewer nonviolent offenders in jail

contra decrim:

reduced legal 'barrier of entry' for drug use
(thus) perceived cultural sanction of drug use
possible loophole for organized crime, etc
undesirables remain on the streets, voting, etc (depending on where you are)
does not enable treatment for abusers, or medical use (of cannabis)
marginalizes drug use as does prohibition
 
 
eye landed
21:45 / 11.01.08
im surprised i cant find an up to date source on mexicos drug laws. i presume its still status quo (i.e. a usa-funded military-style campaign designed to eliminate mexican drug sources, which is apparently working), since the most recent news i could find with regard to decrim was the no-go discussed above. which, as i suspected and the guardian confirms, would have merely been a 'codification of rules already observed informally by Mexico's police.' the same issue came up in canada and was similarly squelched, but i can still blaze anywhere i can smoke tobacco, and get a better reaction from witnesses. on those occasions when the police are bored, they just demand that its put out. more from the guardian article:

The most controversial aspect of the bill was the wording that ensured that all drug "consumers" had the same freedom from prosecution currently enjoyed by verified drug addicts under Mexican law.

Mexico allows addicts possessing small amounts of drugs for personal use to be exempt from prosecution, on the basis that police resources would be better spent on tackling big-time drugs gangs whose turf wars have torn apart Mexican towns connected to drugs smuggling routes.
 
  
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