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"This thread is a liar!"

 
  

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matthew.
14:53 / 25.04.06
Warning: long first post.

At the restaurant where I work there's three supervisors, me, C, and K. When I'm not there, either C or K work. On a Wednesday when I have class, C was the sup and lost a deposit in a deposit bag. Now, it was either taken by someone who had access to the safe, or C left it on the desk and an employeee took it. No customer could have gotten to it.

Fast forward three months, and all the sups have to take a polygraph. The police have decided that there is no evidence to investigate and rather, they'll interview every possible suspect. I'm going fairly last because I needed exams to finish.

On the day that my laptop breaks (fuck), I have to do a polygraph and then immediately work because C and K are inconsiderate and greedy fucks. Noon I have to be there. I get there, and it's a non-descript, unmarked building with only a intercom. No windows. I go in, and I'm introduced to Don, the polygraph guy. He has me sit down in the room and then he leaves. So I make eye contact with every possible place that hides the camera. I know it's there. I'm not dumb. There's a thermostat in the room. Remember that.

So I'm sweating cause it's hot and it's scary and he comes in with a file and we idly chat about school. Then he goes through everything that we're going to do. First, we figure if I'm a suitable candidate. Second, we go through my rights and how the polygraph works. Third, we go through the questions. There are no surprises. We tailor each question specifically so that I have no false impressions. Fourth, we do a pre-test to measure the ease of the testing. This is done through numbered cards. Fifth, we do the test. There are 10 questions in three sets, so thirty questions. Sixth, he leaves and goes over the results and then comes in and discusses. If need be, more sets of questions.

1) He gets all my personal details. All of them. Height, weight, medical history, psychological history, everything. He asks me my favorite movie of all time and writes it down. I don't know why. He asks me if I ever had major surgery; I did. We compare surgeries because they were very similar. He asks me if in the past 48 hours, I had done any narcotics; no. Any alcohol? Yes, a bottle of champagne at work . He says I'm healthy, let's proceed.

2) He explains the rights and freedoms protected by the Canadian government. He has me repeat them back at him in my own words. I sign consent forms. Then I ask where the camera is. "I don't know. I'm not the tech guy." (Okay. Remember this.) I sign all the shit and he explains all the shit.

3) We go through the questions. There are 10 questions.

  1. Did you steal the money?
  2. Subtle variation of 1.
  3. Subtle variation of 1.
  4. Control question: "Are you Matt?"
  5. Control question: "Are you in Winnipeg?"
  6. Other than this case, have you ever lied about something?
  7. Other than this case, have you ever done anything illegal?
  8. Other than this case, have you ever stolen something?
  9. Trust question: Do you intend to tell the truth for these questions?
  10. Trust question: Are you afraid I'm going to ask a question we haven't reviewed?

For questions 6, 7, and 8, he says that since the mind works by association, you may feel guilty about something in your past when you hear the words "steal" or "took". So in order to avoid that, we clear my mind by having my recite all my crimes. Great. All my dirty secrets. Here we go. I say, "Yeah, I've stolen something. Toys from the mall. When I was ten." He sighs and looks shocked. "Are you serious? You never got caught?" He makes a big show of writing it down. "Now I have to reword the question." As we go through all my crimes, he gets more and more upset. Which means I'm getting mad. Fuck you, pal. Stop judging me.

When I get stressed, I get the giggles. So put your best cop voice on and say this, what the cop said, "You think this is funny? This is no laughing matter. Do you see me laughing?" Of course, this made me laugh more.

I ask him to turn down the heat. He stands up and leaves the room. Therefore, the camera is the thermostat. When he leaves, I look right into it. I'm not dumb.

He puts me in the machine. There's a cuff going around my right arm (measures how much blood is being pumped), two metal circles around my ring and index finger on left hand (measures "galvanic" something or other: sweat). There's a hose around my chest and a hose under my gut (how much oxygen in my chest cavity). I can't move.

4) We do the pre-test. I'm strapped in and he makes me pickacardanycard and I get a three. Then he says, "Say no to every question." And then he asks the question, I say "no" and then 20-25 seconds pass in complete silence. I can't move, my eyes are closed. When we're done, he laughs. "Do you smoke?" "No." "Well, this is going to be easy." When I lied, it was sooooo obvious that he laughed.

5) We do the test. My right arm is going cold and numb from lack of blood and it looks purple. Each question makes me doubt everything. In that 20 second pause, my brain is going everywhere. The questions above were randomized. The first set done, I get a chance to warm my arm up. Same with the second set. After the third, he takes the laptop and leaves.

6) He comes back and says, "Did you have any problems with any questions?"
"Yeah, on the trusts questions I felt a hot flush, like when I lie normally." I know what my body is doing when it lies.
"We noticed that, too. But otherwise, you had nothing to do with the money."
Well, I couldn't. I wasn't there.
So then I get to leave. Fuck. I had to go to work and from there, the day stayed awful. Thankfully, today I'm going to do nothing and watch the Poseidan Adventure. Yay!
 
 
matthew.
14:57 / 25.04.06
To sum up the above long post, the polygraph was one of the worst experiences of my life. I forgot to add that while I was in there, I got a parking ticket. Don took care of it, but still.

It was telling everything I've ever hid in my life to a complete stranger, a cop no less, who was making a big deal out of it. I'm told that it was an act, but still! Fuck.

When he did the polygraph for K, he made her cry with accusing questions about her kids. Great.

So what about you people in Barbeland?
 
 
Mourne Kransky
15:18 / 25.04.06
Sounds tough. Who stole the money then?

Never had a polygraph but when I took a Voight-Kampff, the tortoise fried and I won a calfskin wallet.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
15:25 / 25.04.06
I've never taken a polygraph, but I have to admit, I've always fancied the idea of trying to beat one. *end shameless ego stroking*
 
 
Mistoffelees
15:29 / 25.04.06
I really feel for you, matt. I never want to have to go through such a test.

In Germany, the highest court has declared these tests to not be valid. They believe, this test is too fallible.
 
 
ibis the being
15:42 / 25.04.06
Oh god... in my youth I committed some pretty bad theft type trangressions that I never got caught for. I would have died trying to answer questions 6,7,8.
 
 
Jub
15:50 / 25.04.06
I reckon it was K what done it.

btw, one of the most impressive things I saw was when Derren Brown attached himself to a lie detector machine and then interviewed someone. When the other person lied, Derren was able to make the machine show the lie - in other words, he knew the guy was lieing (through body language or whatever), and then made his own body make the machine think he was lying. Fucking rocked.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:52 / 25.04.06
I fear Derren Brown. I mean, in an apocalyptic kind of way.
 
 
alas
15:53 / 25.04.06
Yeah, yikes, 6,7,8 seem pretty scary to me. How horrible. I mean...eek.

I've never had to take one of these tests but I am quite sure I'd have had the same freaked out reaction as you had. And how annoying that the one administering the test is clearly LYING. That's such a power trip, domination tactic.
 
 
Slim
16:43 / 25.04.06
Taking the polygraph was one of the more unpleasant experiences I've ever had. It really is a nerve-wracking ordeal.
 
 
Dead Megatron
17:30 / 25.04.06
Question 6,7, and 8, would make me go "oh, yeah!", and "right on, man!", which would probably upset the hell out of the cop guy. And not necessarily about "when I was ten".

Anyway, Matt, do you think 30 questions is enough to find out if you're a replicant?
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
17:54 / 25.04.06
Polygraph tests are not valid in court. And I'm pretty sure that you have the right to not disclose personal information to the cops who are keeping it all on file.

It...really seems vaugley Orwellian.

As for the V-K test, I'm not helping the tortoise because I'm in the middle of the desert, I'm hungry, and I can use that shell to collect moisture for drinking. Better turtle-boy than me! And I'm giving back the calfskin wallet because it clashes with my pants.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
17:57 / 25.04.06
You don't mean you wear those black and white checked chef's trousers, Bard?
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:00 / 25.04.06
My answer to that would be "what is a freaking tortoise doing in the freaking desert? and what am I, for that matter?" and "Calf? What the hell is that?"

You know, I'd like to test my lying skills against a polygraph.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
18:25 / 25.04.06
I'd love to try one. I'm pretty sure I couldn't beat one with my ninja lying skills, but I'd like to think I could screw it up with my truths.

All in all, the experience you describe sounds ridiculous. I mean, seriously. Firstly, and obviously, people can be trained to beat a polygraph (and I doubt it's all that difficult). Secondly, it sounds like a really subjective kind of questioning, I mean, sorry, but if anyone claims they can really, reliably tell you which words are going to press which buttons in your mind there's probably a million dollars in it for them from the whatchemacallit foundation. Bollocks can they, they can make a decent guess, perhaps, but reliably enough to help send someone to prison? Bollocks, bollocks, bollocks.
 
 
Char Aina
18:25 / 25.04.06
no disrespect, but i reckon you'd lose.

you seem like the kinda guy who talks a lot.
i'm not convinced you have the patience to be quiet enough for long enough.
i'll wager your succesful lies in the past have involved elaboration and fast talking, neither of which are welcome or useful in a lie detector test.

can you lie convincingly with only one word?

i read not.
 
 
Char Aina
18:29 / 25.04.06
sorry, kay, you got caught in the crossfire;
clearly you'd lose because you're a terrorist.
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:31 / 25.04.06
maybe - and i'm only speculating here - a good way to beat the polygraph would be not to try to stay calm so your lies sound like truth, but intentionally getting nervous, so that even your truths sound like lies. Would that work?
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:37 / 25.04.06
no disrespect, but i reckon you'd lose.

you seem like the kinda guy who talks a lot.
i'm not convinced you have the patience to be quiet enough for long enough.
i'll wager your succesful lies in the past have involved elaboration and fast talking, neither of which are welcome or useful in a lie detector test.


No offense taken, of course. But, as amazing as it may seem, IRL I can go absolute mute for days at a time (I talk a lot more in writing, actually). And I'm aslo a minimalistic liar. From experience, I can tell long explanations usually flag a lie, so, when I lie, I say as little as possible.

The reason I speak so much here on Barbelith is that I'm always speaking the truth. I mean, why lie to people who can't reach me in person, nor know my real name?
 
 
Mourne Kransky
18:50 / 25.04.06
But did you steal the money, Megatron?
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:57 / 25.04.06
YES!!! Not that money, but I have stolen some money. Most of it I spent on drugs, of course.
 
 
Char Aina
18:59 / 25.04.06
he's lying!
don't believe a word!
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
19:00 / 25.04.06
Oh DM, DM, DM. You don't quite fget it, do you? I already know your real name. And where you live. And the fact that you eat half a quart of rocky road ice cream every night before you go to bed.

It's what I do, you see?
 
 
Mourne Kransky
19:03 / 25.04.06
And his boxer shorts have Spiderman on them. International criminal? I think not, pah!
 
 
matthew.
19:12 / 25.04.06
All in all, the experience you describe sounds ridiculous. I mean, seriously. Firstly, and obviously, people can be trained to beat a polygraph (and I doubt it's all that difficult). Secondly, it sounds like a really subjective kind of questioning, I mean, sorry, but if anyone claims they can really, reliably tell you which words are going to press which buttons in your mind there's probably a million dollars in it for them from the whatchemacallit foundation. Bollocks can they, they can make a decent guess, perhaps, but reliably enough to help send someone to prison? Bollocks, bollocks, bollocks.

Well, thanks for belittling not only my experience, but the police and my business for trying to solve the case. First of all, you cannot lay charges and then convict solely on polygraph. In Canada, it's inadmissable. So there.

This is one of those few times where I thought I knew about something and I was completely fucking wrong. Everybody who says they can beat it is a moron.

The test isn't the polygraph. The test begins as soon as you walk in the door and it ends when you walk out the door. The cop isn't just trained to read the machine; he's reading you. It's not the machine that says you're lying; you say you're lying.

Sorry to be snippy, Kay, but you don't know what you're talking about. Only those who have taken the polygraph know how fucking stressful it is. Everything else is purely hypothetical.
 
 
Dead Megatron
19:12 / 25.04.06
Ha, you fools. It's half a quarter, it's 2/3 of a quarter. And, yes, I do have Spider-man boxers, but it's Spider-man with the black uniform. So, you see, I'm eeevil

(one of the info in this post is a lie. Can you guess which one?)

PS. I'm bored at work, so I have overposted for the day. See you tomorrow, friends.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
19:27 / 25.04.06
This sounds nasty, Matt. Glad you feel able to talk about it.
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
19:30 / 25.04.06
You don't mean you wear those black and white checked chef's trousers, Bard?

Actually, sob. Yes. I do.

Well, blue and white checks. With a white jacket and white apron.

And a Pinky & the Brain baseball cap (don't ask).
 
 
Mourne Kransky
19:31 / 25.04.06
He needs a group huggle and a Barbeninja attack on his boss for putting him through it.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
19:33 / 25.04.06
That last post of mine was directed at Matt's situation, post Pants-on-Fire test, but could equally well apply to Bard being forced to wear cruel and unusual trousers.
 
 
Slim
19:42 / 25.04.06
The polygrapher is not some schlub off the street- he's likely an expert interrogator and not easily thrown off. I suspect that very few people on the board could pass it. DM's acting nervous ploy does not help you pass. In fact, it almost assures that you will fail. If the polygrapher can't read you because the results show that you're either very nervous or a liar, that is not considered a draw. You've failed.
 
 
Slim
19:51 / 25.04.06
Only those who have taken the polygraph know how fucking stressful it is.

It doesn't help that you're ordered to relax in a situation where you have
- tubes running across your chest
- pressure reader on your arm
- pressure reader on your finger
- feet squarely on the floor
- back upright
- arms placed on armrests at 90 degree angle
- stare at a spot straight ahead
- don't breathe too deeply
- don't breathe too shallow
- no movement other than blinking

Essentinally, you're told to relax in an environment that makes it extremely hard to accomplish. I've heard stories of people admitting to things they haven't even done because what was originally a polygraph test turned into an interrogation.
 
 
matthew.
19:53 / 25.04.06
I said that I had been told ways to beat the test in a Psychology class. I went through them.
1) Flex your arm.
The interrogator said he'd visually see it.
2) Curl your big toe as hard as you can.
The interrogator would see irregular charts before even asking a question. He said there's no three strikes. Once, he warns you. Twice, he shuts off the test and automatically presumes you have something to hide and therefore are a prime suspect. It's the exact same as failing the test.

3) Furthermore, he said the tack in the shoe is possibly the stupidest way to try and fight it. Not only would it be extremely uneven, but it would be plain uncomfortable. And the test is already that.

4) Post-hynoptic suggestion. He said that's fairly "out there" and very uncommon. A hypnotist is not infallible. The interrogator can ask around it. Hence the fail-safe questions of 6, 7, and 8.

You cannot will yourself to be calm. You cannot will yourself to believe a falsehood. I suspect that nobody on Barbelith could beat it, if they were a suitable candidate.

(Also, I have bruises on my right arm from the cuff. So it wasn't just mental anguish, but physical as well.)
 
 
matthew.
19:54 / 25.04.06
Slim, my eyes had to be closed. Which means I couldn't tell what was going on, which made me even more stressed out.
 
 
ibis the being
20:16 / 25.04.06
That would be stressful for me. I'm very uncomfortable keeping my eyes closed. I have to wash my face very quickly in the shower or the monsters will get me when my eyes are closed. I'm an open-eyes kisser even. I know it sounds like I'm taking the piss, but I'm totally serious, not being able to see makes me nervous.
 
  

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