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Underground > Games & Gameplay >

LARPing Vs Pen and Paper, who swings a better sword?

  
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
14:43 / 25.04.06
I have been a tabletop gamer for years, played in countless D&D adventures and rolled up more characters then I can count. I was sad when THACO was removed from 3rd edition, but otherwise I love the d20 system.

I have never been involved with LARPers officially, but my perceptions have been colored by one experience.

I was at a aci fi convention years ago and there was a Vampire LARP group at the convention actually playing (do they still call it that when its live?) in the hotel. It was explained to me the first night I was there that when one of the characters was walking around with their arms crossed, in a coffin pose, they were not merely being spooky, but this meant they were invisible. At this point being an asshole 17 year old I kept walking into as many invisible people as possible and freaking out.

Sure, it wasn't mature, and it didn't pve the way for everlasting peace between the 2 camps of gamers, but it was fun, in an idiot teenager kind of way.

So, the questions posed for this thread, which do you prefer, adn which is more geeky?
 
 
*
18:53 / 25.04.06
I like them both, for different reasons.

I like tabletop, because it's much more in my comfort zone. I don't have to be in character all the time, and there's a certain amount of metagame talk which is part of the fun ("OMG remember that one time!!!"). But LARP makes me stretch. I played my first successful LARP villain ever two years ago and got so freaked out I had to give him a change of heart. LARP makes me overcome my social anxieties in order to play, so it has a slightly antigeek effect on me (which is not to say it works like this for anyone else). I really don't think either could be rationally said to be more geeky than the other; they just appeal to different geeks.

(Incidentally, the arms crossed pose indicates use of the power "Obfuscate," which makes someone unnoticeable, not invisible. The power specifies that people don't walk into people using it, because they subconsciously avoid them. But your trick still would have been good for a laugh in my group, once or twice.)
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
19:19 / 25.04.06
There aren't two groups of gamers, I don't think. Certainly not in the UK. The overwhelming majority of LRPers I know do tabletop in some form or another.

LRP is a very, very mixed bag. There are a vast number of different styles (I'm working on a census/survey/thingy of LRP in the UK; there are, by my best estimate, something like fifteen thousand players across several hundred clubs). Vampire-esque games form a part of LRP, but fantasy themed outdoors events are much more prevalent (albeit they don't usually run as frequently per club). Judging LRP on the basis of one vampire game (the only one I've ever attended was atrociously bad, for instance, but I can think of several which have excellent reputations among fellow LRPers) would be most inadvised.

LRP is very different across different countries, too. Especially in Scandinavia. Scandinavian LRP (stereotyping hugely!) has a reputation for being unusual, tends towards 'arty' mechanics-free or mechanics-light interaction and realism, and occasionally attracts government funding. Certainly not 'geeky'.

LRP elsewhere varies immensely. Generally speaking, in my opinion, where LRP is heavily influenced by tabletop systems and backgrounds, it is crap and geeky. Dice rolling, stat crunching, and other horrible things like that are bad enough, and translate very poorly to LRP. (Vampire, incidentally, is one of the closest approaches of LRP to tabletop.) Where LRP does its own thing, it is splendid. LRP has been around a long time, and is slowly finding its own way in the UK and Continental Europe. America I'm not so sure about. I hear bad things about the general styles of play, and nightmarish tales of pay-for-xp systems and other abominations. But then again, I've never met an American LRPer who wasn't good at it, so it can't, I hope, be as bad as it sounds.

LRP does have certain unique problems, though, which set it aside from tabletop games. There are more - sometimes many more, sometimes vastly more participants. Player safety (like seeing someone jump over a cliff to escape pursuing monsters), player irresponsibility (like, say, finding someone has decided it's a good idea to build a bonfire inside your tent), and player honesty (there are any number of ways to cheat - LRP relies most heavily on honesty!) are issues in ways which they are not with cosy tabletop games. Players can find themselves left out, accidentally or deliberately, and it is very advisable to go to big fest LRPs with a group of friends. Hardly indicative of geekiness, though.

If I was to sum up LRPers in one word, it would be "Weird". Sometimes geeky, sure. Sometimes mundane. Sometimes very social. Usually very tolerant, LRPers are easily the most tolerant group of people I can think of. But weird sums it up best.
 
 
Sekhmet
20:41 / 25.04.06
Elijah, I'm not sure I can convey just how odd it is to hear anyone say they miss THAC0. Ye gods, I hated THAC0.

In fact, the lack of THAC0 might formerly have given Larping an edge in this comparison, in my mind.
 
 
Isadore
03:19 / 26.04.06
I haven't had any experience with LRP, beyond having had a few friends who played in the local Vampire game until it got shut down, and another Swedish friend who had many interesting / hilarious stories about the Vampire group in Göteborg.

I do have the LRP supplement for Nobilis (the only supplement for Nobilis, actually) and it sounds rather fun, if there were enough folk around to make use of it. I'd probably want at least ten before starting a game; less than that and we'd be better off with pencil-and-paper. Of course, it's hard enough finding four for Nobilis most days...
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
14:16 / 26.04.06
Here is something that came up while I was talking about this around the office. Does the SCA counts as LARP?

I am on the fence, because they do have people who play defined roles (king, queen, etc) but they also have an air of superiority (at least the higher ups in the organization) especially with a mission statement like The SCA is an international organization dedicated to researching and re-creating the arts and skills of pre-17th-century Europe.

My finace is working towards her masters in medieval studies and thinks the SCA is full of it as far as the research and recreation aspect ("HOLY CRAP they are serving food in wooden dishes, they must know their stuff!" and the like). As I said, I don't know how I would catagorize the group. I have been to a few events over the years and if it is LARP then most of the characters are Modern Day Person Wearing Poorly Made Costume And Speaking With Bad Accent.

I do think, however, that an SCA style LARP event would be more to my liking then the conversation heavy Vampire. I wouldn't mind an event where actual sword fighting ability won out over stats and die rolls.

Still though, I am undecided if dressing up and hitting someone with a padded sword is less geeky then sitting at a table with some friends and rolling some dice. The SCA might be less geeky, because, to praphrase Haus from another thread, many of them do it for sex. A common phrase (at least here in the Outland) is that if you can't get laid in the SCA just give up.
 
 
Mr Tricks
18:01 / 26.04.06
Here's a story.

Many years ago I found myself hanging out with a group of SCA hangers-ons. I met them through a community collage gaming group a former classmate and gaming friend had invited me to attend. He had introduced me to D&D and the like when I started collage. While I had graduated, he furthered his education elsewhere and continued to pursue his love of role-playing.

Half of these "re creationists" fancied themselves as Vikings while the other half were Celts. They/we would attend SCA type events but play out the rowdy trouble making sorts useful in the various staged wars but unsuitable at court dinners. Generally this allowed us to party wantonly with out having to adhere to SCA conventions.

The making of Armor and the bashing people with foam covered sticks was a major attraction amongst this group. As of course was the drinking of lots of alcohol (some home brewed) the smoking of Cannabis and the eating of mushrooms; and lots of co-ed nakedness. I actually smoked my first joint at one of these events... fun times. I however, didn't get laid.

Some members of the group were very into the historic aspects of this hobby. Others were very into the music, costuming and craftsmanship involved in turning a stolen Rail Road Crossing sign into a shield. Damn heavy they were too.

It seemed to me that the main attraction was the collective fantasy of "let's pretend" combined with lots of "partying" out in nature. The group was composed of a rather large spectrum of people, families with kids as well. There was a definite split between day time activities (while the kids where around) and the nighttime activities. To this day I admire many of the parents who effectively created a child safe environment amidst the greater event(s).

At home, the majority of this group was into TTRPGs. Mostly Warhammer, and many a Saturday afternoon sword practice ended up at someone's house for a Saturday evening of Warhammer. Amongst this group, stereotypical nerdishness got sort of beat out of people via the foam covered rattan or the use of alcohol and drugs.

At least amongst the greater gaming community I was exposed to, at the time, violence, drug-use and drinking were generally looked down upon. Those that didn't "partake" were considered on the nerdier end of the social spectrum by those who did. From the outside, looking in, I'd imagine these "nerdier types" to at least appear more "clean cut" when compared to the grungier, unshaven and somewhat Beefier viking/celts.

It's hard to say if those that did not game at all even placed themselves on a further portion of some sort of Nerd<-->Cool spectrum. After just over a year I discovered E the LIMELIGHT in New York City, started Raving and found myself gaming less and less.

Rather than medieval camping events I was going to camping Raves. It gradually became harder and harder to attend a Sunday afternoon game after spending the previous 2 nights dancing till dawn. I however, got laid alot more.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
22:02 / 26.04.06
I've just carried out a quick poll of LRPers on Pagga. Of the 22 people who've answered this afternoon, 12 say they tabletop often, 8 say they tabletop sometimes and 2 (one of whom is me) never tabletop. Interesting proportions, although the sample size ain't exactly huge (Pagga is closing, alas, and there's not as many people as there were).
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
22:06 / 26.04.06
"No-one seems to know exactly where it is..."
Although there's nothing to stop you combining large quantities of recreational drugs with LRP. Most LRP fests in the UK tend to have a time-out around about midnight, after which point sensible people go to sleep and everyone else gets (more) wasted. Rinse and repeat for three or four nights... some people do.
 
 
Quantum
11:02 / 27.04.06
Pen and Paper. Because I like to fly and throw fireballs, and LARP is a poor substitute.
'You there, put on the thousand-goblin costume. You, pretend to be the flying horse on fire...'
 
 
Sekhmet
13:33 / 27.04.06
And when you're tabletopping you can cast a fireball without having to yell "FIREBALL FIREBALL FIREBALL FIREBALL FIREBALL" and toss an object covered with streaming red ribbons at your target.

How does anyone do that with a straight face?
 
 
*
17:24 / 27.04.06
Although there's nothing to stop you combining large quantities of recreational drugs with LRP.

Except for the fact that in my LARP group, you got banned if you just show up identifiably drunk, let alone high. There were kids present, people who are temporarily off their nut often act like assholes, and we met in a building generously loaned to us by my college.
 
 
Quantum
17:35 / 27.04.06
Yeah, when playing in your front room you can drink and smoke and play appropriate music. Bonus! Some of my favourite games require drugs- Paranoia for example *demands* copious amounts of weed.
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:15 / 27.04.06
Down here in Brazil LARP (or simply Live-action, as it's called - just like that, in English) is almost exclusively a Vampyre:the Masquerade thing, and since I don't dig vampire-themed games (that archetype simply doesn't work for me, I'm not into the gothic scene at all) I never played LARP. And I don't think I ever could, since I can't stay in character to save my own life.

Paper and pencil also requires a lot less physical space, which is good, when you're playing in a overcrowded college dorm.

And with P&P (see, I just make a pun here), there's the soundtrack (our dwarves were deep into funk music, the elves liked Enya, the orcs only attack at the sound of Metallica, etc etc) and peaceful usage of light drugs, which is another plus.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
18:43 / 27.04.06
Because I like to fly and throw fireballs, and LARP is a poor substitute.

Agreed. Although I like to sneak around, steal things, and assassinate people ninja style in the dark. And tabletop is a terribly poor substitute for that. I also like political scheming, and scheming among a thousand people beats scheming amongst five hands down...

And when you're tabletopping you can cast a fireball without having to yell "FIREBALL FIREBALL FIREBALL FIREBALL FIREBALL" and toss an object covered with streaming red ribbons at your target.

How does anyone do that with a straight face?

Generally we don't, here, although I've seen one or two LRPs using a beanbag style. It is silly, though. The most annoying thing for me, though, are systems which require you to shout your damage when you hit someone, which tends to lead to mass melee combats having a soundtrack of "DUBBA DUBBA DUBBA DUBBA QUAD! DUBBA DUBBA DUBBA BLUNT SINGLE DUBBA DUBBA QUAD! QUAD! TRIBBLE TRIBBLE BLUNT BLUNT DUBBA DUBBA QUAD!"

A LRPing legend has an amorous couple overheard one night: "Call that a QUAD IMPALE?"

Drugs

Except for the fact that in my LARP group, you got banned if you just show up identifiably drunk, let alone high. There were kids present, people who are temporarily off their nut often act like assholes, and we met in a building generously loaned to us by my college.

Yah. I was talking about the big fest LRPs, the thousand-odd-people-in-a-private-field thing, where vaguely responsible adults have been known to get wasted after time-out without really getting in anyone's way. On the other hand, I've seen some people be right wankers after they've attempted to combine cocaine and LRP. Not good.


My Pagga poll is now up to 45 respondents.
Tabletop often: 24
Tabletop sometimes: 17
Never tabletop: 4

I'd been beginning to wonder if I was the only antisocial bastard around. It's interesting, though; LRPers are pretty much a subset of tabletoppers, rather than an opposing faction.


Here's a couple of top-notch LRP projects:

Maelstrom, (UK)
Dragonbane (Scandinavian / International Project)
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
21:43 / 27.04.06
Reading those links (briefly) what bothers me is the use of magic in LARP I think. I just can't imagine whatever system was used to keep things safe would make things cool.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
07:44 / 28.04.06
Dragonbane's magic is going to be stage-managed, as far as I know. With pyrotechnics and the dragon and whatnot.

The most effective display of magic in LRP, I think, is usually ritual magic. When you've got a bunch of people who've prepared a ritual beforehand, you can often get some very good effects, smoke bombs, luminous stuff, all sorts. Good stuff in the dark.

One very effective way of simulating magic is the approach used by Hyborian Tales, in which magic is handled individually and in a hypnosis / clash of wills manner. Very dramatic, although it requires a higher degree of cooperation on the part of the players.

"Point-and-click" magic is, I agree, much less convincing, but is well suited to an environment where you have a large number of players, as it is less ambiguous (although it has its own problems, like the difficulty of hearing spell calls in a massed battle, and identifying who is the target). Point-and-click magic relies on the players shouting spell names (and sometimes the effects, too) at each other. Often there is a requirement that the player performs an appropriate incantation (these vary in length from complicated verses to "By my power...") or a gesture. This can look good if done right.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
10:01 / 01.08.06
I have pretty extensive experience of both tabltop and LRP. I played LRP in the biggest LRP organisation in Britain. Through LRP I have met some wonderful people who I consider amongst my best friends and I have also met some very good role players. These however have sadly been the exceptions. In my experience I have found LRPers to be cliquey, judgemental, intolerant, power players, very poor role players, have few real world social skills, deeply unpleasant to each other, mysogynistic, racist and with very low self esteem. Many of the good role players I have seen have been forced out of the system and in-character and out-of-character bullying is rife.

I very rarely go these days and when I do it tends to be to dress up in costume and have a drink with the people I get on with, who I'd not see otherwise rather than waste my time trying to role play.

I should stress that this is my experience of one particular system, for example I have heard very good things about Maelstrom that has been mentioned above (though I flunked character generation and decided it was too complex for me and chose to use the money to go and see live music and learn to dive instead).

When playing tabletop with LRPers I have again found them to be power players, hack and slashers of the dullest type and lacking the imagination for both characterisation and visualisation.

Obviously I prefer table top, there are a lot less restrictions on you, you have a limitless budget and it's easier to play in other genres. (For example a space battle would be very difficult to do well in a field, though it would be fun to see LRPers wearing paper mache space ship models running around a field shouting "Particle beam cannon! Particle beam cannon!") I also find the quality of role play to be much better, more evocative and atmospheric.

In principal I like the idea of LRP and have no problem with the "sillier" aspects and think it should be a great deal of fun, sadly my experience has suggested otherwise.

One thing I will say if you are intending on playing larger events please baear in mind that whilst they may seem like safe environments, and you will be told they are safe environments, they are not. You need to keep your wits around you as you would in any unfamiliar nightclub. That means make sure your with friends/people you know well, especially at night, keep an eye on your drink at all times, if you must get utterly legless then ensure that you are with people you know well and trust to look after you, do not go off with people on your own (this can be unavoidable in terms of roleplaying so you may need to make judgement calls, if you have the slightest misgiving don't do it, it's best to have a friend/friends with you and always make sure people know where you are). If you see anything untoward report it to security immediatly and in the unlikely event that they don't pay attention to you either keep at them or find someone else.
 
 
invisible_al
15:05 / 01.08.06
Reidcourchie I'm guessing you play the Gathering? Well please don't assume that it is representative of the rest of the LRP hobby. It's not even representative of the smaller games that are run in it's gameworld by player groups (factions).

Oh and drop us a PM if you have a question about the Maelstrom system, with 5pts to spend it's not that difficult, only the 'downtime' options verge on the complex. It's the best game of the three fest systems I've played and evolved out of Omega which was created by people who were sick of a lot of the problems you mentioned.

If I had to sum it up I'd say people just try harder in it because they know their effort will be rewarded rather than wasted. I'll hold my hands up and say I know most of the crew who run it and unlike what I've heard of the Gathering organisers I trust them to listen to me and sort stuff out.

But anyway after that lengthy digression I'm going to sit firmly on the fence and say I like both of them. They're different beasts and satisfy different urges in playing them.

A good table-top game can be detailed and very intense, but I've never had a tabletop game that can compare to the kind of intense burst of political intrigue that can be had by 200 players all bouncing off each other during a weekend.

But you can't play LRP in the same depth as a table-top game as well, one afternoon a week for many months adds up after a while. I like both kinds of experiences, especially since I can only do LRP a few weekends a year at the moment. And it's a hell of a lot less in logistics to get 5 people in a room with some dice than 40 people in a hired hall or 1000 people in a field.

Also Large Scale games and Smaller LRP games are two entirely different beasts as well. Large scale games are where you make your own fun but in games of 200 people and below there's a lot more chance of personally tailored stories happening and the refs and crew stirring things up. Some of the best games I've played were over 4 very intense hours with about 20-30 other people.

Random question are any of you in the SE of england as I might get of my arse and run some LRP once I've sorted out moving house next week.
 
 
invisible_al
15:09 / 01.08.06
Oh one thought while I think of it, you can do magic really well in an LRP game, you just have to do it differently than point and click fireballs. So you go with what you can create the illusion of, rituals with ref's supplying special effects as needed.

Best magic I've ever used at a game was spirit summoning some very devious and demanding spirits and doing some serious bargaining for power. That worked as it was interaction between me and a ref playing a sprit (with some great costume).
 
 
Evil Scientist
08:01 / 11.08.06
I've always been pro-tabletop myself, both as a player and as a GM. LARP is a whole lot of fun and gives me a chance to stretch my acting muscles, but I've always found that the fight scenes and monsters that my imagination can create are generally far more impressive than anything most LARPs come up with.

That said I do like the growing trend for the internet linked games you hear about where total strangers are sent to locations to interact with other players. Bit riskier to be sure. But allows more immersion in the role IMO. Has anyone had any experience of that style?
 
 
charrellz
07:31 / 15.08.06
Not much to add of any use, just thought I'd weigh in real quick. I play tabletop a minimum of once a week, but I've never LARPed and probably never will. It just doesn't appeal to me. I enjoy using the power of my imagination to bring a scene to life, and I think running around in a bunch of foam is really missing the point. (Having said that, this is still pretty damned awesome)

I'll close with the line I shout anytime I see a group, "LARPers go home! Back to your basements, take up the dice once more!"
 
 
Quantum
14:25 / 16.10.06
Live action has it's advantages in that you can have visual gags that wouldn't have the same impact if described.

Like this for example;



(thanks to Invisible Al and RPG net)
 
  
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