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North American Man Boy Love Association, Inter-Generational Relationships, the Ethics of paedophilia, Free Speech, and much much more

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16:35 / 25.04.06

The old ‘action makes the man’ line of reasoning, eh?

No, I'm not saying that at all. But a sexual impulse a vastly different thing than, say, a political opinion. I would ask you how sexual attraction can be moral or immoral? What would you do to correct an "immoral sexual attraction?"

Then, if the attraction itself is morally ambivalent,

I don't say ambivalent, I say amoral or outside of morality.

other questions are presented; assuming no children were hurt could naked pictures of children be morally used as pornography? I assume we will say no due to the fact exploitation of a fashion is taking place; the children are unaware of what they are being used for. But what about paedophilic stories, pictures, dolls or computer games?

None of these existing only within one's mind, or in the purely theoretical. They all involve actions, images, objects in the real physical world, therefore I think they're all subject to an examination of whether they're acceptable. I'd rather not pick them apart by yay or nay right here and now.

What about sexually admiring a child from afar? Lusting or even obsessing over hir? Where do you draw the line of what constitutes an unreasonable or immoral action?

These last two examples are different from the rest. I doubt that either of them would ever realistically happen only in the mind of the hypothetical paedophile, but I think I'll leave that to people who know more about it than I do (psychologists, children's activists, support groups and so on). I don't pretend to know exactly where "the" line is drawn in regards to immoral action, but I certainly do believe lines can be drawn.

17:38 / 25.04.06

No, I'm not saying that at all. But a sexual impulse a vastly different thing than, say, a political opinion.

I agree entirely, I was perhaps thinking along a different line to you however; it is not so much the impulse itself that I would view as morally measurable as opposed to the self acceptance of that impulse. I.e. If I go around proclaiming I find underage boys attractive (NAMbLA) then I believe there is a moral sentiment there; I am in effect proclaiming that I believe it is an acceptable sentiment to hold. It seems as if the morally acceptable stance to take if I were to find myself attracted to young boys would be to see myself as ‘ill’; to go seek therapy to ‘fix’ myself.

None of these existing only within one's mind, or in the purely theoretical. They all involve actions, images, objects in the real physical world,

But the objects of lust, assuming they are not based upon a real child exist only within fiction.

I don't pretend to know exactly where "the" line is drawn in regards to immoral action, but I certainly do believe lines can be drawn.

And I will disagree; lines around this issue will and certainly can be drawn in legality, but in ethics?

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18:16 / 25.04.06

There's a decent argument that child pornography always hurts the children involved, because children are quite sensitive to a sexualising gaze and the effects are traumatic no matter how one tries to mitigate that. Even if the naked pictures of children were taken perfectly innocently, there's enough of a risk (due to teh intarwub) that the subject will come upon their own photos being used in such a manner later in life and will have a pretty severe negative reaction to that.

I have heard of people who are sexually attracted to children and adolescents using various techniques to sate the desire without doing any harm. One guy attracted to preteen boys sought out FTMs who had had chest surgery but weren't on testosterone. Others do ageplay with consenting adults. I have no idea how well this works in the long term, but it seems to me on the face of it a better approach than saying that the desire itself is enough to make one evil, and acting on it in a harmful way is an expected consequence of the desire.

Disco is My Class War

11:52 / 26.04.06

Some old threads on this topic, which seems to be heading towards generalised child sex stuff:

Is pedophilia bad?

The pursuit of youth.

Pedophilia: a broad topic

14:36 / 26.04.06

I have no idea how well this works in the long term, but it seems to me on the face of it a better approach than saying that the desire itself is enough to make one evil

I am unsure, however, that the public consensus is so open-minded to the distinction between desire and action in this matter. Paedophilic simulations are often fiercely opposed with "virtual child pornography” being illegal in nations such as Canada, the Netherlands, Germany and South Africa. Unwanted or not paedophilic attraction is not uncommon:

A study by Hall et al. of Kent State University, found that 32.5% of their sample — consisting of eighty adult males — exhibited sexual arousal to pedophilic stimuli that equaled or exceeded their arousal to adult stimuli.

This desire is still categorized as a disease in much the same way as homosexuality was, in the unpleasantly not-too-distant past. Admittedly paedophilia is nothing like homosexuality for the simple reason that if paedophilic desire did lapse into non-simulated action then it could constitute abhorrent rape. Which is why I am more comfortable comparing it to S&M; the obsession with simulated rape and/or violent sex has become increasingly acceptable, whilst in that field also if desire turned to non-simulated action it would also constitute rape.

The stigma surrounding paedophilia is so great that I even feel quite uncomfortable presenting the arguments that I am. For the record I am not attempting to glorify paedophilia, merely question its vilification. I think it is obvious that sex with a child has obvious issues of informed consent and manipulation but perhaps NAMbLA is right that where those lines of legal consent are drawn is questionable. And I remain curious; what about the mentally retarded, or of those whose faculties to give consent are no greater than those of a child, but the seduction of which is perfect legitimate?

(Ps. Thanks for the other threads; they made some valuable points)

Jawsus-son Starship

15:13 / 26.04.06

what about the mentally retarded, or of those whose faculties to give consent are no greater than those of a child, but the seduction of which is perfect legitimate?

I'm not sure I agree that the seduction of the mentally retarded is viewed by mainstream society as being perfectly legitimate.

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17:09 / 26.04.06

I have to agree with Math on this point (possibly just this point). My uncle, who is mentally handicapped, is married to a woman with Down's syndrome, and they seem to take good care of each other, but they're both on the same level and I feel they're mentally as well as legally capable of giving consent. I'm not sure if they are asexual; I suspect not, but for obvious reasons it's not something I've inquired into too deeply. I would feel very differently if it were a case of seduction on either of their part, rather than my aunt courting him in a fairly nonsexual way. But I am concerned that they may have felt pressure to get married from the rest of our family, because everyone in their small town saw this as a good thing for them. But I see this as very different from, say, child marriage. For one thing, my uncle and my aunt are likely to feel much the same about their marriage and their sexuality twenty years from now (if they're both still alive) as they do right now.

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20:26 / 26.04.06

12 year old girl accused of killing parents, allegedly at suggestion of 23 year old boyfriend; clearly the Cult of Gothism is to blame.

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