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Negotiating Sex: Using collaborative communication in intimate relationships

  
 
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18:11 / 21.04.06
This is one of those things I think barbelith could benefit from making a space for, whether it's a new forum or just a culture of respect in Conversation.

When there are differences around your sexual desires, how have you effectively negotiated them with your partners? What techniques have worked for you and which have not? What have you learned from your mistakes?

Sexual needs and interests are particularly difficult to negotiate, because pressure here at all can cause people to shut down emotionally and sexually with one another. I feel that compassionate communication techniques (not just NVC as developed by Marshall Rosenberg, but all kinds of truly collaborative communication skills) are particularly helpful, even necessary, in these situations.

My situation—
When I've been in relationships with other gay men who are not trans, my embodiment becomes an issue. My body doesn't look or work like those of the other men they've been with. This creates nervousness which can inhibit desire. It's been valuable for us both to be able to step back and acknowledge that this is not a problem of lack of caring for each other, it's not a problem of lack of compassion, it's not a problem of lack of awareness or sensitivity about trans issues; it's unfamiliarity and nervousness which creates discomfort. Further pressure will create further discomfort. The way to resolve the discomfort is to relieve the pressure and be gentle with one another until we've had the chance to nurture more trust. When we are both able to do that, things usually work well— not easily, naturally, there's nothing easy or natural about creating good relationships— but when we are not both able to do that, then there is little hope for things going anywhere at all.

Obstacles to accomplishing this effectively have been when one or both of us put blame on my transness for causing a lack of attraction or inhibiting desire. It's very easy for me to feel hopelessly freakish or unattractive because of my transness, and that's a road I've decided not to go down. To keep from going down that road, I have to trust that my partner will not project their discomfort onto me, and I have to protect myself from my tendency to take on responsibility for their discomfort.

The objectives which have been helpful in communicating with my partners have been giving space for them to express their feelings and needs without judgment, helping them construe those feelings in a way which allows me to respond constructively, getting to their needs from their position ("I can't be attracted to you, I'm gay" is a position; "I need to find some level of comfort about what this means for my identity" is a need), meeting them on their level, and reassuring them that it's okay to make mistakes or to be unsure. For my part I must be willing to genuinely commit to letting their uncertainty and possible discomfort happen without taking it personally and reflecting hurt feelings back at them, which can stifle further conversation. I've been fortunate to have partners who are extremely concerned about protecting my feelings, but this can mean that I need to take more of the responsibility for protecting my feelings myself so they see that it's okay to express themselves.

Back to you—
Granted that most people here haven't been in this particular situation. In every couple or group, though, there are different sexual needs. How do you negotiate them?
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
00:22 / 22.04.06
I'm afraid this is a negative "don't".

But from experience, one thing I would warn people against is falling into a pattern of using drugs in order to lower inhibitions when something needs discussing. Once started, it's a very hard pattern to break, and it ends up being the first port of call rather than a last resort.
 
 
ibis the being
02:02 / 23.04.06
When there are differences around your sexual desires, how have you effectively negotiated them with your partners? What techniques have worked for you and which have not? What have you learned from your mistakes?

There are differences around sexual desires for my partner (of three years) and I. Negotiating them was definitely a bit of a bumpy ride at first... naturally we went through several techniques that didn't work for a time. I can tell you that manipulation didn't work, guilt trips didn't work, excuses didn't work, pestering didn't work.

I learned that feeling criticized for aspects of your sexuality can be intensely hurtful and damaging even within a trusting, intimate relationship... I think that it often taps into an underlying sexual/body shame that many or most of us felt at some point in our adolescence and it can feel really delibilitating to have that nerve touched. Also, of course, that it's a terrible thing to inflict that shame or guilt on another person.

Easing off the pressure definitely worked. For a certain period of time I think sex became an untouchable subject, because we were both so sensitive about it that it was impossible to go there conversationally without getting paranoid, guilty, resentful, etc. That might sound more grim than it felt... it was just a kind of obstacle that we had to grow beyond. It was a little disappointing at the time for me because in my last relationship I'd had the good fortune of being very sexually compatible with my partner (unfortunately that was our only area of compatibility).

In the end, compromise is the rather mundane answer. You learn to accept that the other person's sexual needs are as valid as your own, and assess whether or not the gap between you is a deal-breaking one. In my case it isn't. In a perfect world I wouldn't have to compromise, but I can live and be content with the arrangement we've got. Now we're to the point that we can joke with each other about sexual matters that were once very touchy.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
22:33 / 23.04.06
When there are differences around your sexual desires, how have you effectively negotiated them with your partners? What techniques have worked for you and which have not? What have you learned from your mistakes?

Thanks for the pointer to the thread, id.

Here's some rough situations, I've seen variants on this lot:

Straightforward expecting a refusal. "Do you want to do that?" "No, I don't want to do that." "Good, me neither." Which works, I suppose, but is rather clinical.

Really straightforward expecting a refusal. "I don't want to do that, do you?" As above, but a reasonable way of communicating your own boundaries, and you can always vary your tone "I've never seen the attraction in that, have you?" for instance. A much more useful tool, I think; just to state your opinion on whatever practice and ask for comment.

Straightforward expecting agreement. "Do you want to do that?" "No, I don't want to do that." "Ah..."
A situation I've found myself on the receiving end of (ha!) several times; I've no interest in assuming any kind of dominant (in the BD sense) role in sex, indeed, I positively don't want to, and yet it's been expected of me a few times. I could do it, by my heart wouldn't be in it, so I've always said "it's not really my thing"; but I've also always felt I've been letting them down, that I've just dismissed out of hand something they want. Definitely one to chalk up on the "communication failures" side.

Really straightforward expecting agreement. "Let's do that!" Serious potential for running into problems, there.

Finally, something of a different order, and in a sense a good kind of problem - the situation when either you, or your partner, or both of you, are working away like a good soldier/s for the good of the other person, only to find you've been wasting your efforts. Generally worth a giggle when it happens, which in my experience is not infrequently. I'm not sure if there's any better way than practice for that one!
 
 
sleazenation
22:59 / 23.04.06
I'd like to ask why (Id)entity put the word 'nonviolent' in the topic title...

None of the posts so far have suggested any violent communication and it seems to me to be an obvious antithesis to communication in an intimate relationship...
 
 
ibis the being
23:34 / 23.04.06
I was wondering that as well, sleazenation.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:43 / 23.04.06
Well, I'm not id entity, but I read it to mean communication which was not hitting someone or shouting at them. Maybe "constructive" or "nonconfrontational" would be the analogues. But I may be reading it wrong.
 
 
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23:46 / 23.04.06
"Nonviolent communication (NVC)" is a specific name for a specific set of techniques. I think the idea is that guilt-tripping people or manipulating them is also a form of violence, and NVC (I linked to a description in the opening post) is supposed to prevent that. They are useful techniques, and I wouldn't mind discussing them specifically. I didn't want to confine the discussion to NVC, but I did want to talk about people using consciously developed communication skills and techniques, collaborative negotiation tools, ground rules, guidelines, and other developed forms of communication for talking about sex.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:54 / 23.04.06
Oops - missed that link. Sorry, id. Will return hopefully tomorrow having read.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:55 / 23.04.06
Maybe you could pop that in the summary? I was a bit perplexed as well, though I sort of assumed it had to be something like that.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:27 / 24.04.06
Possibly a change to the thread title as well? It looks a bit weird to the casual observer, and a bit like "violent communication" is a valid option.
 
 
*
01:20 / 24.04.06
Okay, more on NVC:

NVC involves empathically listening to a partner honestly expressing their observations, feelings, needs, and requests, and honestly expressing your own observations, feelings, needs, and requests in return, in order to arrive at solutions which meet everyone's needs to the degree possible. It emphasizes compassion as the motivation for communicating—that is, you're talking because you value your partner's feelings, and trust that they value yours.

Expressing yourself using NVC most easily and obviously takes the following form:

When you
push me away in the middle of having sex (observation)
I feel
hurt and angry (feelings)
because then I think that you are angry with me. (often useful here is a clarification of the effect of the observed condition)
I need
reassurance and affection in this situation. (needs)
I would like
for you to tell me verbally that you need to stop, and how you're feeling, instead of pushing me away. (request)

The system can be abused to create new and exciting forms of "violent" communication. The following is a negative example to be avoided:

"When you sulk when I'm not in the mood for sex (accusation), I feel that you're just being passive-aggressive (further accusation/diagnosis badly disguised as a feeling), and then I get turned off to the idea of ever having sex with you again (threat, thinly veiled as a clarification of effect). I need you to not treat me like I've done something wrong when I'm just not in the mood to have sex with you (based on assumptions, negative, vague). I would like for you to quit guilt-tripping me all the time (negative, vague, based on a diagnosis, uses absolute language)."
 
 
sleazenation
06:05 / 24.04.06
Ah, right - I also missed the link, mainly because from my communications background when I see the acronym NVC I think of NonVerbalCommunication rather than anythig to do with violence...
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
11:59 / 24.04.06
can't really say i've handled this issue particularly well in the past, though i think i've learned from experience. for better or for worse, i tend not to commit to relationships unless i find the person sexually attractive in a sustained way, and my attraction tends not to diminish through physical changes, weight gain being the most salient one. so when i've experienced this problem, it's been from the other side.

my most recent ex gave me a lot of pleasure, but was really hard to please himself. in the long term, it made me feel really unattractive, and it activated a lot of my body issues. at the same time, he was clearly really defensive about it, made up a lot of excuses, and assured me that he desired me. but we couldn't talk about it, and that lack of communication not just about sex but globally was the main reason the relationship ended.

i still felt crappy about myself until i read a ny tiimes article about how male cyclists tend to lose sensitivity down there. my ex was an avid cyclist who trained almost every day and did races. i then talked to a friend whose boyfriend is an avid biker and she confirmed that she and her boyfriend also have problems in that arena.

it really gave me pause how the issue that plagued me psychologically for so long was probably not about me at all, or at least in large part. and i guess it's true that even though one has to be realistic in these situations about how one's body affects the desires of one's partner, it's really important to fully account for how the problem is also about the other person and not just yourself.

as for the transness issue, it's something that i've actually talked about with friends before, because a number of people in my friend circle especially in sf (both gay and straight) have dated / are dating trans guys.

i actually once met a trans guy at a party in boston while i was living in sf, who i didn't know was trans until after some long e-mails and phone conversations. it was definitely a mental challenge, though the salient thing about that relationship was the distance, and we decided not to pursue ultimately.

i'm sure there would have been some obstacles related to lack of familiarity, but at the time i also thought that so much of what i liked about him was a certain kind of sensitivity and awareness that i doubt he would have had if he hadn't spent time being perceived by the world as a woman. so i dunno, i personally wouldn't have been deterred.
 
  
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