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Your relationship with god(s)

 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
09:41 / 15.04.06
I've realized, over the course of the last couple years, that I will most likely never be free from Jesus of Nazareth. He was everywhere where I was growing up. I hated going to church, but my attitude was never "I don't believe this garbage". It was more like "You're not giving me the whole story, and this whole "mass" thing is boring". And as a practicing magician, things like baptism take on an extra meaning for me (being raised Roman Catholic, I was batized as an infant). Communion too, for that matter.

Not that I ever go to a Christian church anymore or suscribe to most mainstream Christian ideas. Honestly, I doubt most mainstream Christians would ever classify me as a fellow. Regardless, I grew up with Christ. He was in the house, he was at school, he was everywhere. Even after I decided to take leave of Christianity and study other religions, I was drawn back repeatedly to the Gospels.

If God is Love and Christ is Love and this is the Tao, that's all I need to know; I'll work out the details myself. But how does Hermes fit into this?

When I was a kid, Hermes was my favorite god in the Greek pantheon (or any other, for that matter). I liked his style. I thought I'd get along with him. So naturally I was delighted when, a little less than twenty years later, I began studying the occult and found him lurking around here or there. His name came up in strang places, which was great. To date Hermes is the only god I've ever really worked with in a magical, ritual sense. Also, while I never feel guilty about not going to church or praying or really making any demonstration of my belief in Christ, I do feel guilty when I'm out of touch with Hermes for a long period of time.

Occasionally questions will arise that trouble me. Where does Hermes fit in to my view of God=Tao=Love? What is Christ to Hermes, anyway? I like my relationship with Christ and I like my relationship with Hermes but they are two different animals (the relationships, that is), and of what goes on between Christ and Hermes I have only the faintest notion.


I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who has a similar dilemma. Or doesn't, but has some ideas.
 
 
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10:32 / 15.04.06
As far as I know, and someone else will explain better than me exactly what Hermes is, but just to help if I can : Hermes is the intellect, a teacher, a guide, and he helps you to find your way through the maze, using words, meaning, symbols and signs, if you know what I mean.

If Christ is love and your heart, then Hermes is your 'mind' (I have problems using mind as a reference in this way when the Eastern concept is so much more all embracing, but just to point this out..) and your heart and mind are two sides of the same thing. So maybe when you feel guilty because you've lost contact with Hermes for a while, you haven't been learning and studying things as much as you've been allowing the love energy into your body? Only you can know this, so I can't go much further.

I think most people that work with more than one God/dess have the problem, and it's just about balancing out your work with each one. Not something to worry about too much I don't think.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
10:38 / 15.04.06
Not really so sure that Tao=Love to be honest, depending on your meaning of 'Love'. The Taoism thread currently riding high in here should help clarify that if you ask, if it hasn't already.

As for Hermes, the 'Messenger of the Gods' is a common figure among many pantheons, some of which will sit very comfortably with your Catholic leanings. Dig around a bit.
 
 
*
17:49 / 15.04.06
A few potential answers that are what you make of them:

Christ is a teacher. Hermes is a teacher. Within the system, they're essentially two faces of one being— the "teaching mode" of God.

Hermes is a God. Christ is a Messiah. Slightly different job descriptions with slightly different roles, both necessary in your practice.

Christ is God. Hermes is a messenger. The 'messenger' of the god is an 'angelus,' thus Hermes is an angel. (Which order of the celestial chorus has winged feet? I think one of them does...)

Christ exists in one paradigm, Hermes in another, and never the twain shall meet. The systems are self-contained. You can use them each at different times, but it's a logical fallacy to say that one contradicts another. It would be like saying that watermelon contradicts calculus. They're not in the same sphere.

Christ in one paradigm and Hermes in the other reflect the different paradigms' interpretation of one essential truth.

These are obviously not the only options. Play with them and see how they fit together with what you already believe.

It might be worth noting that historically, many— perhaps even most— Hermeticists have been Christians. I'm sure there are worthwhile readings about how they resolved the seeming paradox around belief in Christ and ritual devotion to Hermes.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
18:37 / 15.04.06
Hermes is the psychopomp, escorting the dead to the underworld where Charon takes over, ferrying them across the river.

Christ was crucified, opened the Gates of Hell, and rose again.

both have managed the very rare feat of returning from the land of no return.

--no joke
 
 
SMS
21:15 / 15.04.06
Tuna, have you asked Hermes about this?
 
 
xytar with a Z
23:12 / 15.04.06
Honestly, I doubt most mainstream Christians would ever classify me as a fellow.

I find that most mainstream christians hate the thought that anyone from their culture is not a christian- they say that you are- you just don't know it or have yet to come 'round...

I would like to know the differences between Pan and Baphomet.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
02:58 / 16.04.06
Tuna, have you asked Hermes about this?

No. It's never been easy like that for me. To be honest, I'm not positive I know how, exactly, to put the question to him.

Christ exists in one paradigm, Hermes in another, and never the twain shall meet. The systems are self-contained.

Mmm, I agree and I don't. Paradigms can overlap, especially if you take a liberal view towards one or both (an example is my equating God=Tao=Love, which I can do because I have a very loose, or rather very large, definition of big-l Love).

It's not so much "OMG Hermes is going to be so jealous", it's just that way up in the stratosphere of my mind I can effing feel some sort of conflict, or to be more precise I can sense the overlapping and it occasionally makes me worry about possible interference, especially because, as noted earlier, I have very little idea about what goes on between the two or what their relationship is. So far attempts to come to an accurate or pragmatic perspective on the matter make my brain hurt and my head swim.
 
 
Isadore
15:11 / 16.04.06
No. It's never been easy like that for me. To be honest, I'm not positive I know how, exactly, to put the question to him.

Have you tried your divination device of choice? Sometimes they really peg the situation; sometimes you're left going "Huh?". Either way, it's worth a shot.
 
 
SMS
18:44 / 16.04.06
Jean-Luc Marion makes a helpful distinction between icons and idols. An icon is that which catches our gaze and directs us further to God; an idol is that which catches our gaze and keeps it. The command against making false Gods is essentially a command against elevating any phenomenon (that is, something created and not Creator) above the one and only Creator, Who is at once God and Goodness itself. The point is not to make an idol of anything, even (and especially) our own ideas. This is why it was so important for Christians to formulate a Trinitarian doctrine that did not devolve into tritheism. (From many Christian perspectives, then, Christ is not one mode of the same truth that Hermes is a mode of, assuming, of course, that you haven't simply given the name "Hermes" to the true and living God, etc)

I make this point because I think it might be helpful in thinking about our relationship with any gods at all. If your polytheistic worship is one based on a fundamental plurality to the nature of the universe — that, in other words, there isn't simply One Truth-Goodness-Virtue-Love-Being-………… but many — then your loyalty to this or that god needs to be framed in a different way. For instance, it may be that each god is a foundational being for the nature of some good. So Hermes is the god of boundaries and the travelers who cross them, say, meaning that the nature of that "good" — the good of boundaries — depends on Hermes for its existence. Hermes is the creator of those boundaries. But then Athena is the goddess of the good of wisdom, and these are essentially incommensurable goods. It could be that the kind of wisdom Athena provides can somehow direct us away from crossing a boundary that Hermes would tell us to take, and that there simply isn't any way of standing back, objectively, and weighing the two against each other. So the question of whether it would be wrong to worship both Hermes and Athena is really a matter of choice.

In speaking of the gods as gods, I don't mean to reduce them to the ideal of which they are gods. That is, I don't mean to suggest that Athena is simply the personification of wisdom; I would suspect (maybe foolishly) that one who really worships Athena would do so because xe thinks Athena is the very source of wisdom rather than just a means to wisdom. It doesn't really seem like worship to me if you're just using the god as a tool to something better.

When talking about Hermes and Christ, though, the question is whether you really believe that Christ is the second person of a real Trinity, Who creates all things or whether you think Christ is one phenomenon among many or whether you believe that Christ is one creator among many. If you believe the first, then I'd say you probably are a Christian and had best try to see God through Hermes and never worship Hermes unto himself. If you believe the third, then, as with Athena and Hermes, its kind of your choice (maybe theirs, too). If you believe the second, though, then you probably ought not to worship Christ at all.

But maybe your relationship with a god is analagous to a relationship with a lover; one cannot simultaneously devote oneself to two gods at once, perhaps. There's probably some truth to this, but I'm guessing it's a human condition more than a godly condition. Any god that actually gets jealous in the same way we do is probably not worth the time of day.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
20:26 / 16.04.06
But maybe your relationship with a god is analagous to a relationship with a lover; one cannot simultaneously devote oneself to two gods at once, perhaps.

"One cannot serve two masters" is something I take seriously. Of course, the idea of "service" is a big one for me, which only throws up more complications...

Have you tried your divination device of choice?

I've never used divination as a means of communication with a god that I have a working relationship with, so I suppose it's worth a try.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
08:42 / 17.04.06
Gabriel the Angel was the messenger of God. Maybe you can study up on him. Neat sidenote, Grant Morrison actually met Jesus when he was recovering from the face infection thingie from his Invisibles days.

I think it's neat that you're gonna keep what you came up with. For example, I think if you pick and choose which parts you like about it that Catholocism could be a really cool framework. They've got a million saints for just about everything that you could try to talk to, formal mason style rituals, a cool pantheon of Archangels and fallen angels. Just cut away some of the bullshit the official church has presented in it's history, and I think you've got something fun to work with.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:11 / 17.04.06
With Celane on the divination. I'd also encourage you to look into Jack's suggestion that you investigate the Saints, see if there's a being who deals in similar mysteries to Hermes.

As has been noted above, a belief in God (in the sense of a great overarching omnipotent and omniscent consciousness) does not necessarily exclude the possiblity of working with Gods plural. As I understand it, the usual rationale is that while the Christian God demands that you have no other gods before Him He doesn't say anything about having other gods after Him, or sort of off to one side, like.

You've asked me privately about my own experiences working with Gods from more than one pantheon. The fact is that I haven't really been at this very long (in fact, today marks my first anniversary as a Crazy God Person) and I've really only interacted with one being outside 'my' pantheon.

My situation is a bit different from yours in that the Gods of the North positively expect you to offer reverence to other entities besides them--landwights, housewights, giants, elves, dwarves, and goodness knows who else. When Eleggua began tapping me as well, it was reasonably easy to square it with my People. I explained that a powerful wight was very active in my area and was sending me scary dreams and visions, and would they mind terribly if I made Him a few offerings and had a chat? As long as I remember where my principle loyalties lie, my occasional work with the Opener of Ways does not go against anything that my Gods might require of me.
 
  
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