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Magick and Quantum Theory.

 
 
The Sinister Haiku Bureau
20:17 / 26.06.01
About 5 years ago, there was a documentary series on BBC2 called 'heretics', about (pretty damn reputable) scientists who had theories which went completely against what scientist believe about the way the universe works. The one which i am most interested in was a study into psychic phenomena. The experiment consisted of volunteers trying to influence random events, with very convincing results. The scientist concerned then came up with a theory, based on quantum physics, that the mind could help reality choose which universe to be in, and that some psychic phenomena could be due to the mind altering probability itself. (not sure if i've explained that very well, but if you're acquainted with schrodingers cat and the many worlds hypothesis then you might be able to figure out what i mean.)
So first up, can anybody tell me who did this study, and point me at a website, or just tell me more about it. I find this particularly interesting as it provides a possible explanation of synchronicity and sigils.
Second up, anybody just want to yak about any other cool, bizarre and heretical theories you've come accross, or the possible connections between quantum theory and magick?
(and apologies where due for the somewhat non-linear nature of this initial post).
 
 
Wombat
06:02 / 27.06.01
Sounds like the work done at edinborough university by Richard S Broughton.
I reckon that your barking up the wrong tree with the quantum theory/magick idea. (<-Opinion). QM reduces very rapidly to newtonian mechanics at a scale of a few million molecules. Also a brain or mind isn`t used to collapse wave functions. Still all this may change rapidly very soon when the next wave of theory hits the streets.
 
 
big city deserter
16:50 / 28.06.01
Was that the TV program where John Gribbin (physics editor of New Scientist) had a debate with Malcom Muggeridge (christian) ?
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
09:08 / 29.06.01
I'm a complete novice when it comes to quantum mechanics, theory, or even leap so maybe some others would have more intelligent things to say on the subject but here's a few questions that hopefully might start the ball rolling:

1) If not all the aspects of QM corresponds to 'magic' then are there any parts that do?

and

2) what about things like super-strings? How could they figure into traditional magical metaphysics?
 
 
Blank Faced Avatar
07:14 / 24.07.01
The most salient point of modern quantum work is this : some subatomic particles now known to exist in a very real sense show Action at a Distance. The example is of a quantum particle which has a 'twin', remote in space. When the paricle gets its state changed, the 'twin' changes state even if it is distant - the molecules do not communicate, they just react. Some implications being:

A) Using the particle as a digital (1/0) sender, and watching the twin to receive, digitised information can be broadcast far faster than light, as there is little time lag in the switching of distant 'pairs' - ( this is of course impossible ).

B) Your brain electricity operates at such subtly delicate voltages that it can be influenced by these types of phenomena - on the level of individual neurons firing or not - with the implication that,
- you think a thought -
- a neuron in your brain fires -
- it changes the state of a quantum particle in the neuron of your brain -
- the twin is in someone else's brain, it changes too -
- causing their neuron to fire/ not fire -
- facilitating a thought process -
- switching more particles -
- which have twins in your brain -
- triggering a thought process ... etc.
- ergo : Everything Is Connected.

This is a pretty general explaination, but the theory is well understood - any old photon can go through two slits at the same time; deflect the course of one instance of the photon with a mirror, & the 'other half', spatially distant, shows identical deflection even though it is not hitting any mirror. Your brain is definitely suceptible to quantum events at its most subtle levels, these particles are in your head & their twins may be elsewhere - perhaps in another brain ..
( and why evolve a brain which is suceptible to this effect if it ain't useful? It's evolutionarily easy to increase brain voltage the .0001% and avoid interacting with the quanta at all on this level .. ergo, you would evolve to interact with whichever particles are found in their greatest concentrations inside living brains .. or an equally useful place ).

Modern quantum theory has a lot of crazy implications, these aren't the worst. Whenever Johnny reads new scientist, it seems that the chaos magic mindset is beautifully open to the lunacy of the quanta, while the scientists have apoplexy - every article is like, " We can't quite believe it, but it seems like we've just discovered that everything is connected by energy fields we can't ordinarily percieve ", evoking the response, " well, DUH."
Johnny remembers hearing a scientist commenting ( rightly ) on how we can calculate that there is a huge total of energy in the cosmos, but we can only detect about 30% of it in all scientifically known forms of matter & energy : 70% is "dark energy", science just don't understand or detect it. And then he says,
"Of course, there's no way we can even imagine of interacting with this unseen energy".
Sounds to Johnny like our scientists need us. They're having trouble just imagining doing stuff we take for granted. So have a heart. Find a Labcoat type and feed him/her psilocybin pies until they are making sandcastles with dark matter & getting in touch with their other 70%.

[ 24-07-2001: Message edited by: johnny alpha ]
 
 
Tom Coates
08:40 / 24.07.01
Anyone interested in doing a write up on this for the zine?
 
 
Wombat
08:40 / 24.07.01
Still doing major amounts of research in this area. Need to read a lot more and then argue with people.

The only way I can see QM working with reallity is using the many worlds model. Magick could thicken the cone of realities where an event happens. (This opinion will change as I learn more)
http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/quantum/quantum.jsp?id=22994400
http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/quantum/

Johnny - Give the `labcoats` some credit. We have to explain and provide evidence etc.. can`t just come up with a `it`s like all connected man theory`. Apart from that as a labcoat myself. Drugs please. In pies or whatever.
 
 
Blank Faced Avatar
21:40 / 24.07.01
Johnny has been consumed by me, the Humble Crab, but as he was being eaten he did indicate that he would like to give credit where it's due ...

At their best, the labcoats get the results. A Psychic type may claim to perceive unseen energies, but a labcoat gets off his ass & builds an unseen energy detector, so I can perceive them too. Magicians never seem to do anything that useful, and when pressed are always, 'I can't do it if anyone's looking', but labcoats are brazen types who come and show off what they've made. Hard results you can use.

HOWEVER

I was quite serious when I said these guys need your help. Especially with the crazed implications of quantum stuff. I didn't really mean it to sound so patronising - I'm talking about connecting people with different strengths. I guess I should have admitted that we wishy-washies need their rigour and attempted objectivity just as much in return.
 
 
Wombat
11:53 / 25.07.01
I agree. There is a large area of overlap in science/magick. We have a lot to learn from each other.

On your interconnectedness theory. Could this be used to influence a lump of conducting silicon? I sense an experiment coming on.
 
 
Blank Faced Avatar
05:57 / 26.07.01
Yes. I was quite down on computers, vs. brains, until I discovered that this was true.. they're quantum sensitive for similar reasons - tiny amounts of electricity in physically tiny channels. A link to the really small. So it seems we accidentally made the things far better than we knew - we networked 'em, all right. A whole new meaning for "Ethernet"?
 
 
Yagg
01:24 / 02.08.01
quote:Originally posted by johnny alpha: Find a Labcoat type and feed him/her psilocybin pies until they are making sandcastles with dark matter & getting in touch with their other 70%.

What a classic line! I'm going to start using that in conversation to confound people who annoy me. "Dude, you need to get in touch with your other 70%."

This is a really fascinating thread. Sorry I have little to contribute other than my fascination.
 
 
Wombat
05:17 / 06.08.01
http://doug-pc.itp.ucsb.edu/online/plecture/penrose/
 
 
grant
11:45 / 06.08.01
from the above link:











Anyone care to summarize the audio portions to those of us who can't listen to lectures while at "work"?
 
 
grant
11:47 / 06.08.01
Oh, and I couldn't help but love this illustration (the man's a wizard with a dry-erase marker):
 
 
Wombat
12:06 / 06.08.01
Ok. Sorry about not putting up any piccies or explanation. I didn`t think any of this stuff could stand alone.
Thanks Grant for proving me wrong. I`ll try harder in future.

Audio bit consists of
1) Maths proof (from godels theorem) that a rule based machine (ie ANY computer) can never achieve conciousness.

2)Evidence. By showing things a computer could never do. Some chess problems and tesselation problems that are simple for people and can not be solved by computers. (see non repeating tesselations above..a computer will have to go through an infinite number of loops to tesselate a pattern but a human can see how it could be done in seconds)

3)A hypothesis that shows conciousness can be created at the quantum level. Basically a unified quantum computer hardwired as the basis of the human brain. (and any other creatures with microtubules in neurons)

Results of this are that

a) if many worlds is correct we 'share' processing power with out other brains in other reallities.

b) if the copenhagen interpretation is correct we can collapse the wave funtions in our own brains thus effecting things away from ourselves. (humans are not needed to collaspe wave functions just the ones in our own neurons)

I have no idea how tunneling could be used in this model. Should have some pretty bizarre effects.

Also combining with fractal space-time and chaos could lead to some magickal effects being possible. (but in my opinion pretty unlikely)

[ 06-08-2001: Message edited by: Wombat ]
 
 
Lionheart
16:24 / 10.05.02
A very very very good book to read on this is Quantum Reality by Nick Herbert. He takes all of the findings of the quantum theory and asks: "What does this mean for reality?"
 
  
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