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On an ill-defined aggregate of related policy issues about community

 
  

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Disco is My Class War
15:52 / 31.03.06
This is a rambling, possibly quite incoherent rant about moderation, policy and the idea of community. I've been reading P&H threads a lot lately. Like everyone, presumably. I notice that a lot of the moderators are expending enormous amounts of energy debating what should, or shouldn't, be deleted, edited, locked. I also notice that at present there's quite a lot of disagreement between moderators. I imagine that some/all moderators are feeling kinda exhausted, and I feel for you, I really do. I can't imagine what has been happening behind the scenes over the last month or so; it must be crazy.

I have also noticed an odd phenomenon. It happens mostly in this forum, but I've seen it creep into other forums as well, particularly the Conversation. I'm thinking of threads like Barbannoy here, and some others. In discussions about particular threads, posts, etc, especially about what is considered offensive and what is not, particular suits are being talked about as if they are invisible, not present. Various opinions are offered about a particular suit (mostly, the ones who post shite): hir motivations, hir life, hir reasons for posting. It's as if some of you are carrying on a conversation on a private forum. And this is mostly -- not all, but mostly -- coming from people who are moderators. Often these conversations are in good faith -- they aren't abusive, rude or mean; they are quite interesting in their own way. They are also, often, written in the interests of 'creating a better Barbelith'. But they are still acting as if the person in question cannot read what is being written about them.

Is this really wise? I feel wary about asking this question, since I don't want to tread on toes. I am quite supportive of conversations taking place about stupidity, offensiveness, idiocy, head-desk feelings, feelings like Barbelith is full of wankers. (I'm thinking of discussions around suits like Sauron, Mister Six, some other 'problem' suits -- although it seems likely that Sauron isn't a 'problem suit', you just didn't know how to contextualise your joke well.) And some of those conversations have taken place in the context of straw polls about whether to burn suits. Come to think, I did it too in the SR thread. I said, "Burn this fucker." So this is about me as much as anyone.

Again, I wonder whether it's wise.

If, for example, some moderators had begun to talk about me as if I wasn't reading when I got snarky about heteropanic in Feb, I would have been ropeable. The politics are not the same, sure, and that post wasn't up for moderation. But in that case, a whole lot of people responded to me directly, saying that they disagreed with my sentiment, or my way of expressing it. It's not like this isn't already happening.

So, why all the conversations about why particular people post particular crap? Why so many copen discussions about other fic suits conduct, as if they are not reading? It's a symptom: but of what? This brings me to my next point: there is waaaay too much thought happening about the regulation of what can be written here and what Barbelith should be. Maybe I have less investment in this place being a community, but I have always found that it feels better to argue with someone than to claim their speech should be censored. Evidently this reaches its limits -- at 'Sensitive Rapist' and at spammy holocaust denial. Barbelith is never going to be a safe space for everyone. The world isn't; how could the 'Lith be, ever? I would argue seriously against regulating any more than we already do.

Oddly enough, this place has become far more politically turned on than it used to be at the beginning. There are some people who did a lot of work, arguing thanklessly with the odd complete fuckwit, to make this place more queer-friendly, more feminist, less racist and more sex radical. I did some of that work. Evidently it's work that has to be done over and over; and it's thankless and often boring. But anti-racism, anti-homophobia and anti-sexism have become normative around here. In the past, they weren't, really. In the past, there were actually more stupid jokes about dumb chicks and how to pull/fuck them. If you can believe it. And there were less people calling out those instances. That was okay.

This is how politics works, IMO. Constant work, constant debate, constant re-assessment of what constitutes the limit of what can be said and what needs to be fought, through words. Not more regulation. Not an idea of Barbelith that must protect or secure the safety of its inhabitants. -- See, 'security'. Security like anti-terror security. This reminds me that in the Moderators' Requests thread Nina was talking about being pre-emptive and, Christ, look at the working model of 'pre-emptive' in the world today. This is (some of) what I'm talking about.

To try to pull it all together: I just wonder who people imagine they're talking to; who counts as 'we' here, and in different contexts; and why the idea of Barbelith being a coherent, peaceful, regulated community is so important to some people. Despite all the crappy threads, I like it the way it is. I'd even be okay with less regulation, less thread-locking, less use of power because mods have it and feel it's your responsibility to make Barbelith 'safe'. I wonder whether it is possible to let go of an idea of a coherent 'we' and accept the idea of Barbelith as an inoperable community: inoperable because the consensus necessary for an entirely 'safe' space will never work right, here or anywhere. So we may as wll find a way to be okay with a lack of safety. Risk. Danger. Crappy threads that should be ignored. And sometimes, lines of glorious flight.

(Excuse this quasi-philosophical rambling at the end, it's very late here. That is all.)
 
 
Ganesh
16:05 / 31.03.06
In discussions about particular threads, posts, etc, especially about what is considered offensive and what is not, particular suits are being talked about as if they are invisible, not present. Various opinions are offered about a particular suit (mostly, the ones who post shite): hir motivations, hir life, hir reasons for posting. It's as if some of you are carrying on a conversation on a private forum. And this is mostly -- not all, but mostly -- coming from people who are moderators.

Myself, I've taken part in these conversations many times. I've speculated on the motivations of other posters many times, but I'm under no illusions about the openness of this forum and they might well be reading. Usually, I hope they're reading, and I hope they learn something from the conversation that's taking place. I think they're generally welcome to join the discussion and agree/disagree with what's being said about them.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
16:09 / 31.03.06
Wow. Perfect.

Really. I completely agree with what is being said, and this week has been an eye-opener for me - from Haus vs. Six, to the Crap threads debate, I'm very interested in the dynamic atmosphere being generated by the events on the boards. What I'm noticing, and please chime in if you disagree, is a Us vs. Them attitude devoloping. I'm wondering soon if lines will be drawn, and arguements had, over very small issues, and whether this will effect the way, and type, of posts we will read.

For example; Sauron has just posted an apology and explanation for his Stump Fucker thread. Great, he's explained his reasons, he's told us what he was refering to, and now we can move on. And some people will slap him on the back for this, and hell, they'll let him back into the club, and stop talking about his attitudes and reasons. Which is even better.

But did he have to explain himself. Certainly not in the same way say zoemancer has, or the Vladamier fellow. And this isn't even Sauron's precident, as Mister Six has tried (though more to start a fight then clear the air) to do a similar thing this week. Will we now need threads to discuss threads? That appears to be what's happening, though again, tell me if I'm wrong.

Personally, it annoys me that some on this board have taken it upon themselves to discuss the worth of my, and other's, threads, and while i understand that Mod's are needed, I wonder if we need to expand the collection of Mods, as I see a serious clique forming, of New and Old users who think the same way becoming Mods, and those who disagree with said clique finding themselves in arguements over posts and the like.

While I understand that arguement is healthy, I think that the types of arguements I personally have been invoilved in this week have not been. But they have been fun.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:44 / 31.03.06
DID he have to explain himself? No, of course not, and there was no compulsion for him to do so. However, I for one am glad that he did and think that has helped immensely. Now knowing the context I don't feel so ill-inclined towards it.

I wonder if we need to expand the collection of Mods, as I see a serious clique forming, of New and Old users who think the same way becoming Mods, and those who disagree with said clique finding themselves in arguements over posts and the like.

I would like to point out that, in the discussion over the deletion of the post, it was largely going on between four moderators of roughly equal length on the board, two for deletey-lockey (me and Nina), two against (Ganesh and Haus) and someone else who actually started the unlocking process, with a few others weighing in. So really, what is this clique of which you speak?
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
16:51 / 31.03.06
I don't really think it's a good idea to start naming names or anything, but if you really want me to point fingers I will. But I think you can look at the recent threads, such as the weeding the garden, mod thread, conversation thread etc., you will see a defo group forming that backs each other up, and dismisses those they don't agree with.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:54 / 31.03.06
I see a serious clique forming, of New and Old users who think the same way becoming Mods

And yet you've also said that you agree with Mister Disco's post - a post that makes the point that there's a huge amount of argument between moderators in all recent Policy discussions. I'm afraid that doesn't add up.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
16:57 / 31.03.06
While I think that some of the Mod's are clique-y, I don't think they all are.
 
 
The Falcon
17:02 / 31.03.06
I'm looking through that thread, and I'm afraid I don't 'defo' see anything of the sort, Math; please bear in mind that I was against the deleting of Stump Fuckin', began the unlock process and indeed suggested that your own thread could stay up, which you decided you didn't want.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:03 / 31.03.06
Well, that's so vague as to be pointless. Let me guess, anyone who agrees with you is not cliquey, but everyone who does is?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:19 / 31.03.06
Disco>

On any recent increase in moderation: what tends to happen in Policy is lots of possible moderation actions are discussed, but few of those discussions ever carried through and acted upon. As far as I'm aware, all that's happened recently is we've been talking about potential actions a lot more, not actually performing them.

And this is mostly -- not all, but mostly -- coming from people who are moderators.

This is just because it's mainly moderators who bother reading Policy, surely? And when it's not moderators, it seems to be people who eventually become moderators. If you don't have an interest in this stuff, you're not going to bother posting about it. If you do, you're going to want to get into the position where you have the practical ability to do something about it.

That's also linked to yr main point - the thing about talking about people as if they're not here. That happens because, until they participate in the thread, they're not. There's little point in trying to talk to somebody directly if you have no idea whether or not they're going to be reading the thread.

It's important to note that this isn't a habit that's limited to moderators, either. Almost every time somebody has a personal problem with one of the mods, they start their thread in the same way - talking about that mod as if they weren't present.

I wonder whether it is possible to let go of an idea of a coherent 'we' and accept the idea of Barbelith as an inoperable community: inoperable because the consensus necessary for an entirely 'safe' space will never work right, here or anywhere. So we may as wll find a way to be okay with a lack of safety. Risk. Danger. Crappy threads that should be ignored. And sometimes, lines of glorious flight.

The problem here, I think, is that as the board gets bigger the potential for crappy threads overwhelming the better ones increases. It's something that happens on every popular message board eventually, and is the reason why moderation tends to get ramped up as those boards get older. I don't know that there's a solution beyond trying to reach a happy medium, which is arguably precisely what we're always trying to do in P&H.
 
 
Ganesh
17:22 / 31.03.06
I would like to point out that, in the discussion over the deletion of the post, it was largely going on between four moderators of roughly equal length on the board, two for deletey-lockey (me and Nina), two against (Ganesh and Haus) and someone else who actually started the unlocking process, with a few others weighing in.

I wasn't a moderator at that point. It was that discussion which convinced me I wanted to be one again.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
17:28 / 31.03.06
Let me guess, anyone who agrees with you is not cliquey, but everyone who does is?

Nope. Not the case at all. But as I'm the only person who sees this, it's probably just me.
 
 
Ganesh
17:43 / 31.03.06
But as I'm the only person who sees this, it's probably just me.

Not at all, Math. It's been a fairly common complaint over the years - hence the half-affectionate, half-exasperated references to 'Barberoyalty', etc. - but it's almost always couched in the vaguest of terms, without recourse to actual examples. I think that's why accusations of clicquery tend to elicit an eyerolley response in these 'ere parts.
 
 
grant
18:45 / 31.03.06
So, why all the conversations about why particular people post particular crap? Why so many copen discussions about other fic suits conduct, as if they are not reading?

In defense of this particular practice, it's because the alternative is waay creepier. It'd be easier to just talk about perceived problems or freaks or whoever in private, but next thing you know we're stealing hair from their combs and fashioning likenesses out of wax to offer up in midnight rituals and all they know is gosh, this indigestion just won't go away and then *gok!* keel over one day.

In a word, transparency.

This brings me to my next point: there is waaaay too much thought happening about the regulation of what can be written here and what Barbelith should be.

Sophia bless you for saying this. That's the invisible something that's been bugging me about the latest wave of concerns.
 
 
Olulabelle
19:18 / 31.03.06
I think Barbelith is doing pretty well as it is. It tends not to exclude people and most people can find a space they feel comfortable posting in and that's good. We don't have a high level of 'spammy' posting or chit chat in the wrong forums and the site does attract and create a lot of intelligent, inspiring debate.

My personal worry is the level of concern being focussed on Conversation at the moment and the wave of thinking that seems to be suggesting we should 'up' our chat quality to a more formal standard, or make sure it has some intellectual point.

I understand the desire to protect Barbelith from becoming a messageboard with a whole lot of !!1! dross on the front page but I think in trying to police how people chat to each other we might be a bit in danger of disappearing up our own arses somewhat.
 
 
Spaniel
20:54 / 31.03.06
The problem here, I think, is that as the board gets bigger the potential for crappy threads overwhelming the better ones increases.

Is Barbelith getting bigger though? Are we under threat of more crappy threads these days? I'm not sure it is and - a few high profile cases aside - I'm not sure we are.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
21:07 / 31.03.06
Lula: I understand the desire to protect Barbelith from becoming a messageboard with a whole lot of !!1! dross on the front page but I think in trying to police how people chat to each other we might be a bit in danger of disappearing up our own arses somewhat.

The board does seem more ... meta ... of late. I'm thinking about the feminism threads and how they all ended up being about feminism on Barbelith, even the headshop one seemed to veer in that direction rather than actual discussion about feminism (which as I recall generated some of the confusion about safe spaces and whether Barbelith was considered a safe space, because it wasn't clear if we were only supposed to talking about feminist issues on the board). The latest well-spring of self-examination over Conversation just seems like another sympton/manifestation of that. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but after all those "threads about threads" started up...
 
 
Olulabelle
21:32 / 31.03.06
Well the Feminism 101 thread was specifically about feminism and misogyny on Barbelith. In the thread summary: A discussion of feminism and misogyny on barbelith. So I guess that's why it ended up being about it!

I understand what you mean though. Is the word maybe introspection?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
21:43 / 31.03.06
Lula: Well the Feminism 101 thread was specifically about feminism and misogyny on Barbelith. In the thread summary: A discussion of feminism and misogyny on barbelith. So I guess that's why it ended up being about it!

Indeed it was, but then the head shop thread formed to, well, again be about feminism on Barbelith. And then there was the women-friendly and women-friendly male response threads...that's four threads essentially devoted to the same topic in some form, and all to with Barbelith itself. The women-friendly thread had a specific subfunction, at least...

I understand what you mean though. Is the word maybe introspection?

That's about what I mean. It seems to pop up a lot, and at times it seems to distract from direct discussion ... there's a lot of time spent discussing how we're discussing. Which is certainly important, but after a while becomes a might repetitive...does that make any sense? When the meta outweighs or overwhelms the non-meta...
 
 
enrieb
22:06 / 31.03.06
I do not agree that it's mainly moderators who bother reading Policy long before I became a member I have read from the policy threads. I do fully agree with the rest of your post E.R9 it’s just that one point that I would take issue with.

Which leads me into one of MDs main points discussions about particular threads, posts, etc, especially about what is considered offensive and what is not, particular suits are being talked about as if they are invisible, not present they are still acting as if the person in question cannot read what is being written about them. Is this really wise?

To avoid this potential issue, that being the author of the debated thread 'could possibly' feel excluded, I took a simple idea from the words of Ganesh Usually, I hope they're reading, and I hope they learn something from the conversation that's taking place. I think they're generally welcome to join the discussion and agree/disagree with what's being said about them.

I would like to suggest that when a discussion about a thread begins in policy, that the author of the thread in question could be invited via PM into the discussion. This would hopefully avoid some of the issues that MD has pointed out.

I know that if a thread that I had begun, or made a negative impact in, were being discussed I would like the opportunity to put my point of view across. A great example of how this could have worked could be seen in the ‘stump fucking’ thread debate and subsequent apology.
 
 
matthew.
02:33 / 01.04.06
Some thoughts culled from this thread:

Mister Disco: why the idea of Barbelith being a coherent, peaceful, regulated community is so important to some people

Because the rest of the Internet is crap, that's why. If I wanted somebody to make a joke about gay people, I'd go talk to SomethingAwful.com. If I want to challenge and be challenged, I come here. I don't come here for an easy ride. It's hard work learning and evolving. That's why. Racism/homophobia/sexism/-isms are easy to live in. It's much easier to hate the 'f*gs' and the 'd*kes' and the 'n*g*g*rs'. It's a lot harder to look at yourself and say, 'Why the fuck am I thinking like that?'

Desperate Math: Will we now need threads to discuss threads? That appears to be what's happening, though again, tell me if I'm wrong.

Well, Barbelith does have a history of meta-discussion. We like to talk about ourselves and how we see ourselves and how we can better ourselves. Barbelith attracts me because of the community's desire to change and evolve, and the way to do it is to analyze the behaviour we want to avoid. I will come back to this point.

Lula: It tends not to exclude people and most people can find a space they feel comfortable posting in and that's good.

And if people are not safe, they either do one of two things: leave (which is unfortunate or great, depending on the circumstances) or ask somebody "what the fuck are you on about?" and from there, we create a safe place. And as somebody put it upthread, it's a lot of work that's never done.

So, to wrap it all up, I only half-agree with Mister Disco. I think over-regulation is a problem, but Barbelith's mods are not there yet. It's possible they may go overboard, but I doubt it. That's the whole point to distributed moderation; not all of them are unanimous in their decisions.

The only clique on Barbelith is the one made up people willing to challenge and be challenged in a positive way. This clique is generally headed up by the more veteran posters such as Ganesh and Haus, both of whom are always willing to help with a good amount of patience (there's been many a time where I've had to backtrack and then abandon something while Ganesh waited for me to realize it). Once in awhile they reveal their pointy snarkstick (credit to 'nesh for that phrase) and they only do so because they've been fighting the same fights for longer than I've been on the board. They want a safe space and they are willing to fight for it. Mmm... perhaps 'fight' is not the best word. But I can't think of one.
 
 
Saturn's nod
08:43 / 01.04.06
I don't see how a public space like this can be a safe space.

I think it's okay for Barbelith to be an unsafe space, as long as we work both to limit the amount of "stab in the face" offensive stuff and to make the space definitely unsafe for all kinds of hatespeech.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:43 / 01.04.06
I apologise am464 as this may sound snotty: Where do you place the borders? What content is safe, what is unsafe, and what about stuff that's at the unsafe end of safe, and the safe end of unsafe? I think that if there's one thing more difficult than trying to keep a space safe or unsafe, it's juding the borders for shades of grey in-between.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
10:51 / 01.04.06
I think that if there's one thing more difficult than trying to keep a space safe or unsafe, it's judging the borders for shades of grey in-between.

I'd say the mods, on the whole, do a good job of this. And while one man's boderline is another's offensive, most people here can say what the really offensive stuff is and get rid of it (sensetive dipshit, banging locals, skirts eh, etc.).
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:57 / 01.04.06
the rest of the Internet is crap, that's why. If I wanted somebody to make a joke about gay people, I'd go talk to SomethingAwful.com. If I want to challenge and be challenged, I come here.

Quite- I seem to recall that one of the arguments given against us having a Games forum was that the internet's full of places to talk about games. Of course, the obvious rebuttal to this was that yes, it is, but I (and I'm hoping others) don't particularly want to talk about them with the people in those places. "The boss in lvl 5 is TEH GHEY" is not really what I'd call interesting (or inoffensive) discussion. (Yes, I'm aware this doesn't cover ALL gaming sites- but I like talking about games with Barbeloids). Apologies if this seems like a digression, but I feel it's a similar principle.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
16:38 / 01.04.06
Just to be clear, I do not think there's an 'Us vs Them' tone developing, nor am I really keen on the issues I raised being put down to 'cliqueyness'. Also, I value and enjoy the introspectiveness of Barbelith, and the willingness to look at board politics as a microcosm of allegedly 'larger' political issues. Feminism 101, and the resulting threads, did a lot of good 'work'. They were examples of problems being dealt with in an ongoing, discursive manner: ie, people talk all the issues out, until they are satisfied that they have said all they need to say.

E Randy -- This is just because it's mainly moderators who bother reading Policy, surely?

Yes, but it's not only happening in the Policy. And I don't think that only moderators read Policy threads, at all; in fact lots of people have evidently been posting and reading in the Polcy lately, as the responses to this thread indicate. I'm aware that many of the resentful cabal conspiracy theorist nuts also talk about moderators as if they're not reading. This, to me, seems like a good reason why it's not ideal practice: talking about someone as the object of a conversation, not a potential subject, de-subjectifies them. That's the whole point. I guess what I'm saying is, if the automatic distributed moderation system is so overloaded that decision-making about deleting and locking (and broader issues) overflows constantly into debates, which involve extensive talk about a poster as if they're the 'object', not a subject, then what is happening? Why?

I'm also aware that I sounded like I was arguing against transparency, and I'm not into that either.

As I said earlier, I'm not sure that there are more crappy threads than there used to be. This place goes through stages -- everyone feels nostalgic at some point for that moment when Barbelith was more challenging. Barbelth has died aobut a dozen times now, literally and metaphorically as a way to express disillusionment and disappointment with the level of deabte. The only answer that's worked, in every case, is what someone told me the first time I questioned politics on Barbelith: start a thread. Make your argument. Start more threads. Talk about what you want to talk about. People will come to the party.

This seems a positive and creative solution. Making more rules isn't positive or creative.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
17:51 / 03.04.06
On “board security” and what have you: A lot of people have been talking about Barbelith being a “safe space” and the pros and cons of that argument. As ill-defined as that concept may or may not be, I think there are certain things that we shouldn’t tolerate. And I think sometimes we need to work harder on that, and sometimes we get it right. Bigotry, in general, should not be tolerated. And there are some times when things that are slightly questionable pop up, and I’m glad they get talked about in Policy.

I sympathize with some of the members who have had arguments in this forum regarding their posting quality. I know that no one likes having their thoughts scrutinized. And I know that you probably meant no offense to anyone that may or may not be offended. But any topic, any thread that comes under review in Policy and Help, is under review in order to maintain the quality of Barbelith and, I believe, to make the board better. They’re trying to keep everything on the board running smoothly. And if your thread is under question, I think you need to remember that. It’s not about you, it’s about Barbelith.

On supposedly talking about people behind their back, I agree completely with what Ganesh said. I also think we might be on to something with the idea of PM whoever’s thread is being discussed, just as a heads up and an invitation to be a part of whatever solution is met. On the other hand, this could lead to thread rot if said poster goes bat shit crazy in whatever thread hir actions are being discussed in. But I doubt that would happen much. So, for the most part, I'm all for it.
 
 
ShadowSax
15:39 / 04.04.06
diversity is important in communities. at the same time, while we might like, for instance, desegregated neighborhoods, we might not be in favor of a family moving next door and decorating their porch with swastikas, even if they do bring a kickass casserole to the block parties.

mister disco's original post, i think, was dead on accurate and reasonable. i can say from experience here that it's not a very welcoming place, and i dont mean from a point of view point of view. it's understood that not everyone is going to agree with everything everyone else says. i mean that it's not very welcoming from a personal standpoint. it's not just that people have political disagreements. what seems to happen is that some barbelithinians simply disguise their flame wars with a formal writing style. i've noticed a funny obsessive fear of or anger at geekspeak emoticons and crap like that. but be clear about this: good writing is not a definition of valuable expression.

i also think it's important that those with some bit of control over the flow of discussion at any forum not underestimate the individual people within that forum. this goes to the "it's not about you, it's about barbelith" statements, in their many incarnations. actually, for the person involved, it's precisely about them. it's not uncommon for forum moderators to fall back on the "it's not about you, it's about the forum" argument. it does two things - it puts the control to the interests of the forum and implicitly into the moderator's hands, and it immediately devalues the person involved.

in many ways, moderators (just as everyone) need to be reminded that it's not about them, it's about the community. and individuals and everyone else needs to be reminded that they have contributions to make that cant be made by anyone else. talking about people as if they cant read the discussion, as mister disco pointed out, helps to devalue the individual, to further emphasize his status as an outsider. and it serves to strengthen the control of the insiders, and this cant lead to anything but a more conservative environment. change is constant but people are stubborn, and naturally opposed to change. if you want a progressive and constantly evolving community, you need to embrace new people, because they will help bring change. superficially new people who show up at the coffee shop with a different magazine to share but the same taste in espresso isnt enough. i'm not saying that all communities need to involve all points of view. but i do agree that the general approach here, in many ways, serves as a wall more than it does a shield.

p.s. i'm reading P&H and i'm not a moderator and dont intend on asking to become a moderator. actually, if i hadnt been casually browsing P&H a few weeks back, i wouldnt have seen the discussions that were focusing on me, and i wouldnt have been able to offer my perspective on things. a shoutout to the potentially offending party that something is amiss and going on in P&H is a great idea.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
15:48 / 04.04.06
Just quietly, I really don't give a rat's arse about appeasing someone's perception of their 'outsider' status. People dig themselves into holes all of their own accord.

I now regret raising this, because it's fast becoming a conduit for those posters who have been forcefully challenged on their right-wing views to feel validated and like someone is feeling sorry for them. Shadowsax, I am not your friend. I find your views on abortion and child custody quite appalling. Nevertheless, I'd like to argue the point with you rather than have threads locked in a 'pre-emptive' way.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
15:58 / 04.04.06
I didn't think you had such a well thought out argument in you shadowsax. you just went up a point in my expectations. that puts you at point one (obviously not seriously, this is again just a quote from the starsky and hutch film, and used here as a joke, so please don't get offended anybody).

In all seriousness, I think that Barbelith is pretty much doing ok, for all the wailing and nashing of teeth that I've done in the past few weeks. The majority of problems we see talked about in Policy are issues based upon taste and decency. I've said before that one man's funny is anothers offensive, and this extends a long way across the board. I personally find nothing on here offensive (save the obvious comments regarding banging locals and holocaust denial), but I understand that some may find the things I say and do problamatic at least, offensive at most. I think, and chime in here if theres a disagreement, that the best way to deal with suspected offensive comments is not through confrontation in thread (not at first) but through the PM system. A good example; I made a crack about zoemancer being from Texas, and I got a PM from a fellow texonian informing me that he didn't like my comments, and asking that I refrain from making said crass comments again. When presented with my insensitivity I immedietly apologised, and all was good. Perhaps the problem with confronting people in thread first is that we can damage some fragile egos (mine included), and thats how arguments start. By droping a word in the ear like, we allow people to back down without threatening pride. Of course if that doesn't work - well, we unleash the Haus of Hell!
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
17:00 / 04.04.06
acrually shadowsax, i've just read some of the shite that has poured out of your mouth, and now I think I hope you were offended by what I said in my last post.
 
 
Char Aina
18:28 / 04.04.06
community responsibility interests me immensely.
i am intrigued by my level of commitment without explicit or guaranteed gain, and my feelings of loyalty and supportive love towards the barbelith 'thing'.


some interesting points have been raised here, and i shall endeavour to get to those that interest me most.


first up is last up, shadowsax.

diversity is important in communities.

agreed.
essential, even.


i can say from experience here that it's not a very welcoming place, and i dont mean from a point of view point of view. it's understood that not everyone is going to agree with everything everyone else says. i mean that it's not very welcoming from a personal standpoint.

i would disagree with that quite vehemently.
i would suggest that the experience of one is not the experience of many, and that said experience is often quite coloured by personality.
some are less welcome than others because some say more objectionable things than others, and some do so in a more or less objectionable manner.

not everyone has my experiences on barbelith, as not everyone chooses to say the same things as i do.

barbelith is, in general and in my experience, much more friendly than you make out.

what seems to happen is that some barbelithinians simply disguise their flame wars with a formal writing style.

while this is almost certainly true(it would be, wouldnt it? people in general will do what they can get away with, wont they?) it is also not as common as is often suggested by those of us(ie me) who come the blinkered cock and find it hard to step back and see that criticism may be valid.

haus'(for it was often he) critical posts may have been personally motivated(no proof whatsoever, though...), but they were also generated in response to actions(ie posts) of mine he found objectionable.
it was possible to discuss those actions with him, and we seem to have resolved most of the issues he had without any lingering enmity.

i've noticed a funny obsessive fear of or anger at geekspeak emoticons and crap like that.

obsessive how?
i personally think they look childish, in much the same way as text messages using 'gr8' or similar do.
i would be interested in hearing how you came to your conclusion, and for whom you feel it is more relevant than myself.

but be clear about this: good writing is not a definition of valuable expression.


i'd agree with that.
a message may be sound even wrapped up in shite, clearly.
also, when one criticises a post, both poster and critic would do well to remember that it is only ever the text(or images) on the board that is being criticised.
there may be a message of use behind a bad post. however, without that message being transmitted clearly it may as well not exist, other than in the mind of ze who thought it.

the text is all we have to judge by, and that's why we judge people on what they write.


to continue to use my example, i reacted to criticism of my language(eg:'using feminazi is misogynistic') as an assessment of my person('i know i'm not a misogynist, so i can say what i like, etc').
that wasnt a useful debate for me to have, and could have been avoided if i had taken on board the aforementioned truth; my words were being talked about, not me.

for the person involved, it's precisely about them.

perhaps, but its not about the all of them.
it is only about the words and pictures(and possibly sounds) they choose to share with barbelith.
their barbelith selves.
that of them which is barbelith.
it is about barbelith, i reckon, for barbelith is to be found within posters and is the only reason we are all here talking.
while i take your point, that it feels personal, i would suggest that this is only part of the story.


it's not uncommon for forum moderators to fall back on the "it's not about you, it's about the forum" argument.

'not uncommon' is quite loaded...
would you be able to share where you get that impression from?
and maybe how common you feel it is?
i appreciate that it may be a general impression garnered from viewing several threads over a while.
it is not one i share and therefore is one i would like help in understanding.


it does two things - it puts the control to the interests of the forum and implicitly into the moderator's hands, and it immediately devalues the person involved.

if that means redusing them to 1/5000 as important as all of barbelith, then i feel that is justified. likewise raising folks up to 1/5000. barbelith is more than the sum of its parts, and no one of its parts is more important than any other.
this includes mods and self appointed defenders of the faith. it's not about them, it's about the community, as you say.
if you want a progressive and constantly evolving community, you need to embrace new people, because they will help bring change.

i agree with that, with one caveat.
we dont need to embrace all new poeple. in choosing who we do or do not individually embrace, the community shapes itself.
that is as much an evolutionary pressure as new blood and change.
if not, the LCD effect kicks in and we end up stagnant in a different way.

the general approach here, in many ways, serves as a wall more than it does a shield.

a wall to what?
making a progressive community?
what would make it less wall and more shield?
what specifically makes it so wall-like?



(apologies for how long this was in the drafting. it feels this window has been on the reply screen for about three hours...)
 
 
Char Aina
19:10 / 04.04.06
for d.mathman;

this is again just a quote from the starsky and hutch film, and used here as a joke, so please don't get offended anybody.

i've been thinking about this for you, dude.
well, not for you, but after your trouble.

it seems shit to have to do that with jokes, and certainly takes away from their power.
i think the thing is you dont have to flag the references up if they are well observed and perfectly relevant.
this one did need flagged.
see, your flagging makes us aware you are referencing SnH and mean shadowsax no ill.

except you clearly do, dude.

you are not making an observation of a similarity between this and that movie, you are using an insult that you learned from the movie. Its not a relevant reference, unless you are saying you feel about him as snoop's huggy feels about stiller's starsky.

do you?

the difficulty you are having with this may be that you use movie references in a way i do not recognise. as far as i am aware, the preferred use is as i understand it to be.
i welcome any education you can offer.


In all seriousness, I think that Barbelith is pretty much doing ok, for all the wailing and gnashing of teeth that I've done in the past few weeks.

do you see how that reads?
i dont think you meant it to, but it sounds awfully self centred.
barbelith would never be endangered by your wailing or gnashing, dude.
sorry to confront you with that, but it's the truth, and i reckon i'm not alone in feeling you might need told.

The majority of problems we see talked about in Policy are issues based upon taste and decency.

not really, dude.
i mean, taste yes, if you are using it loosely, as in 'labour are not to my taste', but there are way more discussions in there than just those regarding issues of mere taste.


I think, and chime in here if theres a disagreement, that the best way to deal with suspected offensive comments is not through confrontation in thread (not at first) but through the PM system.

it can be.
it is a hidden process, and that can defuse grandstanding.
it can also hide sins that would not be acceptable on the board.
see haus' exception to the use of 'cunty' in a pm; specifically a reference to a stereotype of a 'cunty woman'.
it can also lend itself to enabling delusion.
sometimes you need to realise that it isnt just haus who thinks you were out of line in how you spoke to him, and in a PM environment there is no outside voice to say that.



Perhaps the problem with confronting people in thread first is that we can damage some fragile egos (mine included), and thats how arguments start. By drooping a word in the ear like, we allow people to back down without threatening pride. Of course if that doesn't work - well, we unleash the Haus of Hell!

some do take it badly, yeah.
sometimes that is an important factor, sometimes it isnt.
there will be some cross over, but usually i'd say it isnt.
the board and its other members come first, i'm afraid.
a poster's personal development is important to me and i consider it a function of the board.
the other posters together matter at least 4999 times more.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:30 / 04.04.06
i'm reading P&H and i'm not a moderator and dont intend on asking to become a moderator.

And the Academy award for unintentional hilarity goes to...
 
 
Char Aina
22:00 / 04.04.06
well, maybe.
MMV, however.
its only funny from one angle, and i dont reckon too many folks walk past from the right place to catch it.

that, and it does play into the perception of you as a big meany with a licene to big-mean.
weesht, eh.
 
  

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