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Barbeloids' comments: "Religious" Fundamentalism

 
  

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Saltation
18:34 / 30.03.06
This could be viewed as semi-troll, so should the moderators prefer to delete it, that's entirely understandable.

However, I recently posted this opinion piece (no link- easy enough to find if you want, eg google me), and it occurs to me that the barbeloid perspectives could be illuminating.

(I can't guarantee any formatting here matches that intended)

---------------------------------------------------------


Religious Fundamentalism rears its ugly head yet again

See, people who say religions are somehow a special magical aspect of human behaviour which must be honoured above all other considerations, are, to my mind, literally insane.

I can't remember who said it first, but "Arguing about religion is like arguing about who's got the biggest invisible friend."

We've seen it recently with extremists in one religion seeking to kill completely-unrelated third parties for previously being obnoxiously more successful (9/11), then latterly for not complying with the extremists' personal lifestyle choices and demands (Danish cartoons).

We've seen it again recently, where a group dominated by one religion specifically requested someone to think up and publicly present challenging and thought-provoking topics for research, then hounded him out of office for mentioning a topic which conflicted with their religion. (Larry Summers, late the president of Harvard University).

You'll note here I use the word "religion" in its real sense, rather than its nominal sense.


Now, we see another brutal upwelling of mindless fundamentalism. Again, there are religious protests in the UK, and the fundamentalists of one religion are seeking to enforce their peculiar fantasies over the reality of other people's lifestyle choices.


This time, they're Christians.


From the same culture which not so long ago executed a boy for joking, as he walked poorly clad through winter's snow and bitter winds, that he was so cold he'd welcome the chance to stand in hell for a while, we bring you:

A decision to run a Sunday ferry between parts of the Western Isles has triggered a major row.
Ferry operator Caledonian MacBrayne has been accused of "wrecking a way of life" by running [a] Sunday service between North Uist and South Harris.
Simple reality contradicts them, as is the usual way of such matters:
However, it is now four years since a Sunday air service to [the island] began.
So far, no one's been killed. But that's just an accident of history, of current cultural behaviours -- not any measure of the underlying hysteria.*


See, religion is not about other people. Religion is about your relationship with your god. CHURCH is about your relationship with other people, and about your ability to affect their lives.

Your relationship with other people stems primarily from culture, not religion. Religion is an influence, not the driver.
It used to be Christian to kill Christians who said that Jesus was both god and man, rather than being god AND man. Met any Nestorians lately? Used to be the biggest Christian sect. Bit rough for them, I know. But they WERE wrong. Obviously. They died first.
Hitched their wagon to the wrong cultural horse.

Prophets create religions; Priests create churches.

And churches usually contradict the original religion even as they declare they propagate it. Jesus attacked faux-religious power-hunger and commercialism --and after he was gone, his church's priests later sold redemptions and dominated European real-politic; Mohammed demanded his followers not worship him or his pictures --and after he was gone, his church's priests later sought to kill people for drawing him; the first Buddha insisted his followers have no holy books but follow simple reality --and after he was gone, his church's priests later created and carried "his" scriptures all over Asia.

Social neediness drives churches, and social-power/status neediness drives churches' priests.

And extreme social-power/status neediness drives churches' extremists.


These particular fundamentalists come from a country which claims as its national motto the same sentiment screamed by every group that has historically reacted violently to unprovoked retaliation: "Nemo me impune lacessit":
    No man aggravates me and goes unpunished.
I offer you as an alternative --as a thought experiment with specific regard to which cultures (NOT races-- superficial human behaviour is driven more by culture than by genes) have tended to be the most economically successful and the most respectful of human and gender rights-- the last predominantly Sarmatian**-culture country's motto: "Suum cuique":
    To each his own.


I keep hearing "Religious Fundamentalism".
But all I can see is "(Sub)Cultural Fundamentalism".


'CalMac spokesman Hugh Dan MacLennan said the operator was "damned if it did and damned if it didn't" over the Sunday service.'
Ooohh... he'll BURN for THAT!

* nor its active-disregard-of-other-people/anti-empathy (which latter is, interestingly, common to most Very Social environments).
(If you think that's overstated, research the execution method called "the angel", and which subsets of "The British Isles" used it. A hint: in a deliberate irony, "Braveheart" was killed with it.)

** Greek & Roman name for that east-Iranian group which had re-settled in the Ukraine by 3rd Century BC. Noted and criticised for women being accorded equal status with men, dressing like men, and sometimes fighting alongside men. Leaders subject to law, rather than vice versa. Driven north and west by Goth and then Hun invasions. Previously, one of the many "Celtic" groups (Celtic is a type of pottery, not a race; and even if you focus on the racial groups latterly calling themselves Celts: ignoring the late-Victorian hysterics/fad, England and Spain are more Celtic than are Ireland or Scotland. Galicia speaks better Gaelic than Wales.). Closest apparent modern equivalent: "Anglo-Saxon".

-------------------------------------------------- END

An Argumentation Caution: There is a very obvious semantic arc in one key aspect of the syntax: initially opened as and within the normal definition of "religion", then once opened: more specifically re-defined then stretched.
This is deliberate and tied to the narrative.
Particular barbeloids may see an analogy: this is not the focus, but the analogy's implications are not misleading: start gentle with something recognisable, THEN on that basis move on to more specific applications.
Should you the reader choose to harp on iterations of superficial interpretations, that will indicate you haven't actually read the article; rather merely looked at the words. Logical deductions can be drawn from your choice.


By the way: there's a very obvious attack on this post. That "you say English is the best way" or variations thereof. I'm Australian. Core Australian, not from the south-east. I regard England as one particular subculture/grouping, and only a loose and clumsy grouping around the multitude of subcultures overlaying its theoretical boundaries. And I regard each subculture on its particular merits in the context of particular purposes. I personally find the UK seriously dysfunctional relative to most of its stated objectives. As regards the usual eventual recourse of the UK-supremacist's reaction to that statement: if the purpose is resisting military attack, I do in fact regard English and Scottish cultures as in the top 5 globally. You may not agree with me; you may not like the possibility of that final recourse being raised. Not relevant to this post.

This post is from the perspective of the multi-cultural observer.
And from the perspective of someone more interested in enjoying life than attacking someone.
 
 
Lurid Archive
19:08 / 30.03.06
Wow, I think that might be a very weak post, but it is so incoherent it is hard to say. The brief allusions to 9/11, the Danish cartoons and the Larry Summers comments give the impression that the writer is fairly sure the audience will understand and agree on the context, despite the fact that there are many interpretations of those events which would run counter to the points hinted at in the post, and so comes off as both lazy and smug.

The attack on christianity then seems utterly bizzarre since the following link is a quick non sequitur to local politics and seems to have no relation, either directly or analagously, to the previously referenced events. Perhaps the writer was trying to convey a superficial knowledge of world events? I can understand the need for such reassurance.

A quick - I think I'm starting to get the hang of this! - detour so that we can observe the irrationality of hysterical women (this is real bleeding edge stuff here), so that we can settle on a final nonsensical diatribe against the UK. I never knew that posts like this were possible. Now I know.
 
 
The Falcon
19:12 / 30.03.06
Just leave it, and hopefully it will go away.

I can't even read the whole thing. It's like trying to eat a flip-flop.
 
 
Jack Fear
19:28 / 30.03.06

...

...

...

Nah.
 
 
Saltation
19:35 / 30.03.06
>A quick - I think I'm starting to get the hang of this! - detour so that we can observe the irrationality of hysterical women (this is real bleeding edge stuff here), so that we can settle on a final nonsensical diatribe against the UK. I never knew that posts like this were possible. Now I know.

Please observe that all quotes here were by males. As could have been verified by clicking through the links.

These comments therefore indicate these commenters had not read the post but rather preferred to push it through a preconception-filter, possibly triggered by the word "hysteria".

Additionally, the context was specifically all humanity and specifically not the UK (I was actually very uncomfortable with my labouring of this point -- however, it appears this was insufficient), other than pointing out that the UK had now taken its own turn in throwing up an example of religious hysteria. And not just another "Islamic-extremist"-rant flavour, but one which was not only not (pseudo-)"Islamic", but which was (pseudo-)"Christian".

And the point of pointing that out in a non-barbelith context, as was explicitly pointed out to be the context of this post originally, was to point out to people who have trouble understanding what's pointed out, that preconceptions re tiny but shiny aspects of big memes are more important to most people than the memes, let alone the facts. both commenters so far have not so much missed the point as underlined the point.
 
 
Jack Fear
19:37 / 30.03.06
Except to say:

An Argumentation Caution: There is a very obvious semantic arc in one key aspect of the syntax: initially opened as and within the normal definition of "religion", then once opened: more specifically re-defined then stretched.
This is deliberate and tied to the narrative.
...
Should you the reader choose to harp on iterations of superficial interpretations, that will indicate you haven't actually read the article; rather merely looked at the words.


That's the most hilarious bit of self-justifying preemptive bulletproofing I've ever seen: the very weaknesses of the argument are, in fact, its strengths! If the rhetoric fails, it is the reader's fault!

This is classic paranoid thinking: The absence of evidence is equated with the evidence of absence. If the audience fails to see your big sexy genius, it's because either too stupid to engage your argument, or unwilling to do so.

Man, if you spent as much energy on constructing a decent line of reasoning as you did on crafting your disclaimers, you might eventually amount to something.
 
 
Saltation
19:47 / 30.03.06
And the point of pointing that out in a non-barbelith context, as was explicitly pointed out to be the context of this post originally, was to point out to people who have trouble understanding what's pointed out, that preconceptions re tiny but shiny aspects of big memes are more important to most people than the memes, let alone the facts. [] commenters so far have not so much missed the point as underlined the point.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
20:10 / 30.03.06
Let's leave Saltation to talk to himself in this thread. He will like that and it's usually what happens anyway. This determination has already improved my mental health.

Saltation is another word for Leap, of course, which seems oddly appropriate.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:23 / 30.03.06
Wow. I never realised that Barbelith had a Livejournal RSS feed.
 
 
Lurid Archive
21:08 / 30.03.06
Xoc is right, of course, but I can't help myself responding to this,

Please observe that all quotes here were by males. As could have been verified by clicking through the links.

So, I'm rather boringly thorough and I *did* click through all the links. My comment about "hysterical women" was a reference to the "aggravates me" link, which contains the cheerful:

This, incidentally, is why women are so often so much more angry than men.

I actually read this post and the links far, far more carefully than I should have. You need not follow in my folly, comrades.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
21:50 / 30.03.06
Mr Salt:

Before bed;

2 x Anadin Ultra
1 x pint of Ribena.

On standby all night:

1 x very large glass of water.
2 x Anadin Ultra

Next morning:

1 x Bacon, eggs, toast, baked beans, about a litre of coffee,

3 x Anadin Ultra.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:54 / 30.03.06
For the sake of fairness, I should point out that I like tiny but shiny.

The rest, unfortunately, I ain't even touching.
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
22:03 / 30.03.06
(In the shadow of velvetvandal.)
I understand that you wish to discuss the difference between the theory of religion and its practical application.
Yes people use religion for political ends. I think you will find a lot of the regulars are rational scientific humanists.
If you could perhaps refocus a few of your points into small manageable paragraphs you may find people will respond.
 
 
Char Aina
06:16 / 31.03.06
tiny but shiny isnt new, i dont think.

the whole thing's it's a bit of an incoherent ramble, isnt it?


From the same culture which not so long ago executed a boy for joking

well, aye.
not so long ago being in the 17th century, yeah?
not so long meaning 300 years?
are you an immortal?

maybe if you could give us ten words or less as to what your point is?

you know, simple points pointed at simply for those of us who need the point of seemingly pointless things pointed out a lot because when pointless things are pointed out we somethimes miss the point to which was being pointed by your pointing to which you point?

do you see my point?

could you give me a short version of your points?
 
 
illmatic
06:45 / 31.03.06
And the point of pointing that out in a non-barbelith context, as was explicitly pointed out to be the context of this post originally, was to point out to people who have trouble understanding what's pointed out, that preconceptions re tiny but shiny aspects of big memes are more important to most people than the memes, let alone the facts. [] commenters so far have not so much missed the point as underlined the point.

Does this bit mean something like - "Ha ha! It's all an elaborate game! Ha Ha! Feel my semantic genius"?
If it is, it becomes even more smug, self-centred and annoying.

Whtevr.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:10 / 31.03.06
Guys, guys. Didn't anyone tell you it's cruel to pick on someone with a disability?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:27 / 31.03.06
I'm white and male, and as a result of that blog post I have no hope. Can I go on benefits?
 
 
Olulabelle
10:29 / 31.03.06
Should you the reader choose to harp on iterations of superficial interpretations, that will indicate you haven't actually read the article; rather merely looked at the words. Logical deductions can be drawn from your choice.

Saltation, I did read this carefully and tried to bear in mind the Law of Vandal as I did so. I want to engage with what you're trying to say but I can't really get my head around it. Here's my list of points that need clarifying:

1/ All of it.
 
 
Slim
10:48 / 31.03.06
All jokes aside, Saltation, I don't understand what you're trying to say. But I'd like to.

Do you think you could list two or three points you want addressed?
 
 
Saltation
10:52 / 09.04.06
Thanks to all who responded.

It started a little slow, and I'd hoped with this particular seed to see more energy rather than just the usual wall of fumbled reading, but the posts were all illuminating. And intermittently hilarious - the delightfully laboured confection of meme-scrabbling to conflate "hysteria" with "female" was worth the price of admission by itself.

Tom's "social experiment" has borne rich fruit indeed. Though, I suspect, not that which ze'd intended.
 
 
Ganesh
10:58 / 09.04.06
That's quite a clever way of saying IT WAS A JOKE!!!1!!1!!
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:26 / 09.04.06
So what you're saying is you're not an incoherent wanker, just a windup merchant?
 
 
Feverfew
12:37 / 09.04.06
I'll be totally honest - the first time I saw this thread, it was with the above string of replies, and I tried to concentrate on reading the original post, but just... couldn't.

So, seeing that it was back on the front page today, I sat down and thought "Well, don't judge without reading it through and trying to see where the poster is coming from and what they're trying to say".

So, I did. However, all I have to say having done so, and this should have been a reply to the original post (my timing's off at the moment), is;

"Do what?"

(Thinking about it, that also applies as a reply to your closing post, Saltation.)
 
 
Char Aina
17:38 / 09.04.06
mr carnival!
why so mean?
can't he be both?

i would like some kind of acknowledgement of my earlier post, Saltation.
some clarification as o whether this slice of saltatiana was intended as incomprehensible mince would be nice too, if you're up for it.

in your own time, holmes.
i'm here all night.
 
 
---
17:46 / 09.04.06
See, the responses in this thread are exactly what I'm talking about.












I'm already getting me coat.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
18:11 / 09.04.06
Your relationship with other people stems primarily from culture, not religion. Religion is an influence, not the driver.

Alchymia this is partly to you and partly directed to saltation. In short the statement above made by saltation in his original post demonstrates the incoherence that people have commented on consistently in this thread. Saltation although you admit that religion is about people and their relationships you then divorce it from culture, stating that it's not a driver when clearly it is a very large part of a person's culture. Church does not merely influence, it drives belief, relationships, it creates a response and structure within relationships because it is the single largest influence of a believers moral make up. Religion is culture. In fact you say that you believe this-
Social neediness drives churches, and social-power/status neediness drives churches' priests.

Culture and society are absolutely intertwined and if social neediness drives churches then they are adopting an aspect within a culture and placing themselves, for instance, at the heart of charity. They are required by a group of people within society and thus they exist making them part of the culture of those who require them.

Frankly though why would anyone bother to be coherent and point out the problems with the first post rather than dogpiling when faced with the delightfully laboured confection of meme-scrabbling to conflate "hysteria" with "female" was worth the price of admission by itself?
 
 
---
18:17 / 09.04.06
Alchymia this is partly to you and partly directed to saltation.

I was joking when I posted, and there was no seriousness there at all. I wouldn't even be attempting to defend the thread opener here because it's too chaotic and full of problems. Was there still something that was partly for me if I was joking?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
18:25 / 09.04.06
I don't believe you... actually I'm really bored. Can you pretend that you're not joking and that you think it's a good post?
 
 
---
18:32 / 09.04.06
I don't believe you... actually I'm really bored. Can you pretend that you're not joking and that you think it's a good post?

Sorry, but that one's just too full of holes to defend. If it helps though, I'm a little bored aswell.
 
 
Char Aina
18:45 / 09.04.06
maybe if you could give us ten words or less as to what your point is?

one more time for the sheeple.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:17 / 09.04.06
You can't describe these concepts in humanaton language.
 
 
The Falcon
20:40 / 09.04.06
Ten words: ferries to Skye - ooh. Fuss. Religion is bad. You cannot criticise.

(An argumentation caution: 'ooh' is not a word.)
 
 
Rev. Orr
18:50 / 11.04.06
What is it, then?
 
 
Char Aina
06:32 / 13.04.06
salty, mate.

maybe if you could give us ten words or less as to what your point is?

please?
like, super please?
 
 
Quantum
08:50 / 13.04.06
This could be viewed as semi-troll, first line of the first post people, what were you expecting?

Tom's experiment.. we are just oversensitive overcritical misreading pretentious rats in Tom's maze, let's try to minimise our collective annoying habit of disagreeing with posters because of their post's poor quality content.


@ Nina because I, too am bored- OF COURSE religious fundamentalists are insane, how can you not agree? Do you want me to explain 'fundamentalism' to you? Don't you remember 9/11? What about the churches that complained about the Narnia film? Haven't you heard of Billy Graham?
The Persinger Helmet proves that God doesn't exist, so religious folk are mad. QED.
 
  

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