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Where are all the EVIL MAGICIANS ?

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22:10 / 21.03.02

I understand that most of you are using magic to better your understanding of life, have a better sense of nature, get laid once in a while, and all that good stuff. But where are all the evil magicians?

No one out there wants to do hideous things with magic? Or at least make more money than Grant Morrison, or a bit of fame? How come they don't post here? If they read the Invisibles, there's a good chance they are comic book fans, and would take great pleasure in providing details of their plans like a supervillian. So where are they?

22:21 / 21.03.02

Suppose you wanted to take over the world. Now, how much time are you going to spend posting on Barbelith.

...or...

We have had a few cases of immoral use of magic, but evil? Not likely. I can't say I've ever met an evil person. Why should magicians be any different?

...or...

The executives of some major corporations are magicians.

...or...

In my experience, imroper use of magic has tended to lead me down a long dark path to hell.

I wouldn't be surpried if Osama bin Laden used or uses magic (at the very least, he prays).

As far as why none of us has used magic to become incredibly rich...well, we've all probably tried at one point or another. Guess it takes a bit more effort.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

22:29 / 21.03.02

No one out there wants to do hideous things with magic? Or at least make more money than Grant Morrison, or a bit of fame?

Hey! Over here! <Waves black nail-varnished hand at JD>

23:09 / 21.03.02

No way! I use magick for all and only those things EVIL!

Ya'know: instigating jet plane crashes and catastrophes; instigating wars, bloodshed and global disharmony; still born babies?--yep, that's me; your mail stolen, oops me too; endless rings of lost keys, and heaps of one of a pair of socks; stolen wallets and gunshot wounds for shoes, exploitation of the working class and sexploitation of the upper class; HARP project--yep, stole the plans right from Tesla's rotting corpse slush mind; car crashes, train wrecks, and bus plunges; global warming and Mad Cow disease; the near extinction of the Monarch butterflies; the dumbing down of America; the neuveau riche; the Challenger explosion; Michael Jackson; the Middle East conflict (that one was all too easy to loop); the HIV; the Uncertainty Principle; Incompleteness; the Crash, and all other mini-crashes (of course, those fuckers have seen it too many times now to jump out windows en masse); the warble of Mercury; water on the moon; the faked moon landing; all and any teen angst; the Grunge explosion; nuclear explosions and testing; alien abductions; almost every Hollywood film; Ron Howard; "Sit on it."; "24/7"; "terrorist"; talking to hands; masturbation myths; bestiality; strip mines; alcohol--legal, pot--illegal; broken shoe laces; cellular phones; The Rat pack; the Brat Pack; 90210; cancer; William Shattner; change dropped down gratings; smut, smite, and smote; the Re-mix; U2; broken hearts; incest; alarm clocks; 9 to 5.

EVIL and IMPOLITE!

Yes, what fun is magick if you can't use it to self-destruct?

m3

oh yeah, and diZzy.

[ 22-03-2002: Message edited by: modthree ]

01:08 / 22.03.02

Take over the world is TOO much trouble and TOO much stress! Ple-a-se!

I just want enough money to have a good, confortable life, travel a lot, know a lot of people, and find a _real_ love.

But, sometimes we have to make justice when it's impossible by other, mundane ways.

Can you call this evil? It depends on wich side of the magickal effect you are...

Player

01:20 / 22.03.02

[Stops jabbing needles through iconic representations of ex-girlfriends, world politicians, and fast-food items]
Pardon? [Breaks to take cauldron of baby heads off boil, adds oregano, then simmers] Personally I've never aspired to do anything evil with magic. The very thought [Beats down human-flesh bound copy of Necronomicon attempting to leap out the window, snuffing out the thumb of a Hand of Glory in the process] repulses me. And world domination is so overrated, and anyway, who has time to get all one hundred and eight exotic ingredients [scans checklist...still can't find Stalin's thigh bone...wonder if Pat Robertson would do...?] required to summon the Armies of the Thousand Hells and dominate the world in one fell swoop? Especially what with final papers and all.

[ 22-03-2002: Message edited by: [monkey - greatest sage of all] ]

01:23 / 22.03.02

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to tie a bunch of virgins to railroads tracks, then twist my mustache and laugh maniacally [Note to self: grow thin "evil" mustache and goatee]

Less searchable M0rd4nt

01:23 / 22.03.02

Nahh, you're all sissies and fakers. I'm much eviler than you lot. I'm proper evil. Eeeeeevillll!

10:11 / 22.03.02

I *always* wanted to be an eeevil person, but no one takes me seriously!
I mean, am I not evil-looking enough??

[ 22-03-2002: Message edited by: Rancid Maggot Circus de Jade ]

12:00 / 22.03.02

Or how about this: if we define evil as a self-interested application of one's own will on other, or of one's own will on the universe...

...and if we define magick as, more or less, being about understanding—particularly understanding the effects, intended or unintended, of actions and intentions: understanding that matter and energy are one, that attitude creates reality—and about acting on that understanding and manipulating that energy...

And the upshot is twofold:

First, since magick is about directing the flow of energy, it's fundamentally easier to work with the will of the universe than against it. Think of a river: you can easily redirect it, or dam it so that it pools up in one place... but it's a damn sight harder to make that river flow uphill or backwards.

In other words: magick is more effective as a catalyst for influencing probability when other factors are at play. You can't win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket. As such, it's beneficial to a magician to work with the good orderly flow, rather than to place hirself in opposition to it. Magick is more likely to fail if the action offends Nature.

Secondly: your own desires may work against you. There are stories told of yogis who could levitate. Pupils came unto them begging to be taught the secret of flight—but none of the students could ever rise more than a few centimeters off the ground. It was their own desire to fly that weighed them down. That's the paradox: often one must eliminate the desire in order to achieve the effect.

Or, put another way: magick is a state of mind, above all else. And the kind of person who'd want to be an evil magician would probably never get very good at magick, while people who tend to be good at magick tend not to have that sort of evil desire.

12:18 / 22.03.02

Thanks a lot Jack Fear, that was a fabulous answer.

I was going to paraphrase Rev. Jesse, another MA Barbelither, in regards to Jack Denfield's emphasis on "evil magicians":

"Why are you so hung up on that?"

12:34 / 22.03.02

quote:Originally posted by Jack Denfeld:
Or at least make more money than Grant Morrison, or a bit of fame? How come they don't post here?

There's actually a good amount of that (which I quickly state is NOT EVIL.). Mordant C. wants to become a famous musician and has instigated some magic towards that goal. Read the Gek thread for other personal 'wishes' posters would love to accomplish with magic.

In other threads people have talked about how they have used magic to differing levels of getting better jobs, getting out of trouble at school, etc.

As for evil... if there were practitioners that performed what most people would simplistically label 'evil', I doubt they would brag about it publically in a forum that leans towards doing 'good' deeds.

Or mentioning it publically on any forum considering how much most non-magical types are prejudiced against all magic as being equal with evil.

12:43 / 22.03.02

Evil is a matter of positionality. It needs an arbitrary to give it definition.
From my stance, Good is what helps me, and in turn that is helping out as many possible self-aware physical creatures as possible so they can help out to fix the world in time for the big metamorphasis. I have my theories on this... and this is what's good. And also what's completly selfish.

To a non physical self aware entity that is oppressed by or prejudicial to physicality, I am straight out, fucked up evil- because I want the physical world to be as strong and awsome as possible. Which would be rather bad for someone who considers their self in direct opposition to all things physical, temporal, "banal" or just straight out smelly (IE- Matrix).

So yeah there are evil magicians... and evil magical forces out there- but who and what they are is all a matter of what is good to you.

A little relativistic- but I have my ideals, so it's cool.

16:37 / 22.03.02

My fiscuit isn't an evil magician, but I play one in real life.

mwahaha

09:31 / 23.03.02

I remember when I was just a little witch dabbling in anything and everything I could get my claws on! I can honestly say I was pretty dam evil. Simply because I was a bundle of rage with patience. The first thing I experimenteed with was channeling and possesions, and I was in for quite a suprise to see all the creepy elementals manifesting in my room and demanding my services.Then I started fooling around with blood magik leading me into a whirlwind of vampires and phychic depletion...The true evil was my lack of knowlege and my relentless masochism. Within a year everything was falling apart beyond my comprehension and I relized it was time to wise up!!!!! Why you thinking of persuing the dark arts?

09:37 / 23.03.02

Evil? Not so much. We do have a lot of naughty magicians, though.

09:37 / 23.03.02

chaotica: If you've gained knowledge and experience from your past deeds, then they couldn't have been all "bad". Magick partakes of every color imaginable – there's a lot more to it than black or white.

Vadrice says:
Evil is a matter of positionality.

I agree with that – Evil is not a thing, it's an opinion.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

17:22 / 23.03.02

Not that I take words like "good" or "evil" too seriously, but I do dig the karma stuff so I try not to purposely hurt people. Which is not to say I believe the three-fold retribution deal. Karma backlash can take a number of forms.

...although I've always been curious (in an Edgar Allen Poe "peversity of desire" kind of way) as to what would happen if I did try to hurt someone with magik. What would happen? How strong would it be? Would the intended victim have any kind of defenses?

That sort of curiousity is kept in check by the number of times I've seen magik do some powerful stuff and my fear of what would actually happen. I think this might be the case with a number of magicians who haven't been practicing very long, but long enough to not have any doubts as to how effective magik can be.

[ 23-03-2002: Message edited by: Johnny the zenarchist ]

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

17:25 / 23.03.02

quote:Originally posted by Mordant C@rnival:

That's so neat.

Tryphena Absent

09:45 / 25.03.02

hey I believe in magic - I'm not above thinking the possibility of a giant thunderbolt hitting me exists.

18:08 / 25.03.02

Most "evil" magicians are too busy popping their pimples, listening to bad industrial and death metal music, and jerking off over their dugeons and dragons characters to post on a forum like this.

-Jesse

18:12 / 25.03.02

quote:Originally posted by Johnny the zenarchist:
...although I've always been curious (in an Edgar Allen Poe "peversity of desire" kind of way) as to what would happen if I did try to hurt someone with magik. What would happen? How strong would it be? Would the intended victim have any kind of defenses?

Not to criticize, zenarchist, but are you also curious about would happen if you shoot some one in the head? Or cut out their intestines? Or other such nastiness? How big would the knife have to be? Does the victim have defenses against this?

Now, (again, not to attack you zenarchist, only interested in the bigger issue here) it appears to me that the "perverse desire" to attack someone with magick only to see what happens and analyze the event is very similar to any sort of atrocities that have been performed on human subjects merely to examine the results. This, my friends, is evil. Not an opinion, not a mere subjective value, but the manifestation of evil as a thing.

{0, 1, 2}

18:41 / 25.03.02

quote:Originally posted by modthree:
Now, it appears to me that the "perverse desire" to attack someone with magick only to see what happens.... This, my friends, is evil.

BULLOCKS!

A desire or an urge is not evil. Only when action occurs and harm is done can an act be classified as evil.

If, by some happenstance, I find myself wanting to strangle my coworker or client, that is not evil. It could be called evil only if I act upon that intention.

19:17 / 25.03.02

You are of course correct, Rev Jesse. As for modthree:

"...perhaps I am a bit of a troll...In short, I seek to explore your “deficiencies” (using your word: I would rather use a construction like, “unexplored territories” or perhaps, “awareness” ), and an excellent way to do that is to act like a troll, obsfucate, and misdirect."

Don't feed him.

19:58 / 25.03.02

quote:Originally posted by Rev. Jesse:
BULLOCKS!

A desire or an urge is not evil. Only when action occurs and harm is done can an act be classified as evil.

If, by some happenstance, I find myself wanting to strangle my coworker or client, that is not evil. It could be called evil only if I act upon that intention.

Ah point! But I would suggest that thought and action and desire are intimatley related. The eight fold path of Buddhism suggests that appropriate thoughts (and desires) contribute to appropriate aciton. It is my opinion that objective evil and subjective evil are the same damn thing.

Why would you want to have such nasty desires anyway? Seems like a big waste of your time and energy, and brings you closer to the objective evil that can be called "evil."

{0, 1, 2}

13:45 / 26.03.02

quote:Originally posted by modthree:

The eight fold path of Buddhism suggests that appropriate thoughts (and desires) contribute to appropriate aciton. It is my opinion that objective evil and subjective evil are the same damn thing.

And so start the Barbelith religious wars. With the Buddhist inquisition in this corner...

18:36 / 26.03.02

sins of comission
sins of omission
sins of intention

catholics got you all covered.

so, modthree - you saying you do not have idle thoughts & what-ifs? or is the character of evil more pervasive of everyone/everything for you?

18:27 / 27.03.02

Grant asks:

“so, modthree - you saying you do not have idle thoughts & what-ifs? or is the character of evil more pervasive of everyone/everything for you?”

Heh. I wish! I think I was trying to say more that dwelling in negative thought is simply a way to give negativity more presence in the world. I tend to lean toward the idea that the observer and the observed influence one and other in the sense that the relation between the two assist in unfolding one and other along certain parameters (maybe?). In other words, if you spend your time and energy manifesting nasty thoughts towards other people (or things or whatever), then you are contributing to the overall pain and despair in the world.

Try this for a day or two or a week: when you are walking down the street or anywhere in public look people right in the eye and think nothing more than “human.” Don’t think about all the other garbage you project upon them: beautiful, ugly, homeless, scum, corporate flunky, nice breasts/package, hot ass, etc., etc., etc.. Look them right in the eye and think only, “human.” Very liberating (in my experience).

As for your last question, I don’t understand what you are asking of me. What do you mean by, “...the character of evil [being] more pervasive of everyone/everything...” to me? Can you ask this differently? Thanks.

{0, 1, 2}

19:06 / 27.03.02

Tonight, Matthew, I will be SATAN

19:44 / 27.03.02

Hmm. Maybe my point was more about the nature of thought: you can't quite stop thoughts, you can only change the way you categorize them after the fact.
I'm not sure you can simply stop having "nasty desires." You can stop dwelling on them, and prevent them from developing past the barely-articulated "I want/I don't want" stage, but still, that's work.
And in order to work on something, you have to acknowledge it exists to begin with.
Thus: if you're saying that action, intention and desire are all equally value-laden (objective and subjective evil being the same),
and (following out logically) certain thoughts are truly, inextricably evil,
and (as I'm saying) certain thoughts are utterly involuntary,
then there's no escape from evil - it's in us. We are, as the Church would say, all fallen.

19:52 / 27.03.02

Hmm...no escape, probably, it's in all of us, most definitely (we all play a role); however, I'm thinking that, yes with hard work, the individual can begin to make progress to a place where "evil" thoughts do not need to arise in his or her mind, and so, this being (enlightened?!?) does not contribute to the nastiness of the world. Flip side of this might be that neither does he or she contribute positively to the world; rather, this person merely contributes. This leads to interesting questions about whether or not the enlightened being is still human or something else?

20:45 / 27.03.02

In any situation where a decision must be made, there are an unknown number of possible paths, and as many potential outcomes as there are paths. A prepared person will hypothetically explore different options before making a decision and acting upon it. In the exploration of all possible actions, one will necessarily come up with ideas that violate the person's moral constructs (aka: evil thoughts). I will not accept that being prepared, which includes evil thoughts, makes one evil. That covers evil in it's potential state.

Omission=evil? i don't think so either. A conscious person attempting to make the best decisions will necessarily forget things sometimes. I won't accept fallibility as evil either.

Commission=evil? Shaky. Depends on who calls it evil. I'm more willing to beleive an act evil, if the person who committed it called it evil. Someone other than the person who committed is epistemologically unable to know the thought and intent behind the action, therefore unable to judge it with any justice. Also, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"- ever notice when you're trying your damndest to "be really good", it's seen by others as evil? I won't accept action gone wrong, backed by pure intention, as evil.

What I might accept as evil is those who don't act when they know they should. "Evil grows when good men do nothing"

Way I see it, no good or evil. Only tests and lessons. Tests come first, lessons come later.

21:21 / 27.03.02

modthree: so we can start out with a little evil in us, but overcome it?
I can buy that.
And the bit about not being human once we're over the evil and good - that's straight out of Nietzsche, ain't it.

Re-Set:What I might accept as evil is those who don't act when they know they should. "Evil grows when good men do nothing"

That's what Mother Church had in mind with "sins of omission." The religious version of "criminal negligence," really.

The Holocaust, by your definition, would be a sin of commission. I mean, having a pure race of transcendent humans... that's a good thing, right?

04:25 / 28.03.02

The term "sin" only really has meaning within certain ontologies. It means "to fall short," and is specifically used to refer to the condition of the relationship between man and God in Judeo-Christian beliefs. Personally, I'd say any other usage of the term (simply synonomous with "evil") is unhelpful - it smacks of a hangover from times when the Church labelled the transgression of State laws as "sin," which may well be true but not in all instances...

Did that make any sense at all?

11:26 / 28.03.02

Personally, I'd say any other usage of the term (simply synonomous with "evil") is unhelpful - it smacks of a hangover from times when the Church labelled the transgression of State laws as "sin," which may well be true but not in all instances...

Did that make any sense at all? – expressionless

Yes.

It clicks with what Vadrice says above:

Evil is a matter of positionality. It needs an arbitrary to give it definition.

Evil doesn't exist in and of itself – it's a value judgement given to things, people or situations that are considered threatening to one's security.

Sin, as expressionless defines it, has a specific meaning within a relationship between Divinity and Humanity in certain religions and spritual practices.

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