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Fear of death

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23:53 / 20.03.06

Is being scared of death reasonable? Is a fear of death healthy? Reading Ulysses, there is a small throwaway line referring to Bloom's father's fear of death, and the language, seemed to me, to be disapproving of this fear. I've always said arrogantly that I do not fear death; it is inevitable, so why bother pissing and moaning about it?

I want to be careful of not conflating necrophobia with algophobia. There is a big difference. I also want to make a distinction between a phobia and a fear. I am not referring to an irrational fear. I just mean a plain fear.

I'm very frightened of extreme pain, such as shark attack or being tortured. But I am not frightened of the actual death, the biochemical transition from one specific state to another.

Is it reasonable and healthy to have a fear of death?

*

00:32 / 21.03.06

It seems to me it is reasonable and healthy to have an aversion to death— that is, a certain attitude of "Buggrit, I've got friends to laugh with/love to find/laundry to do tomorrow" goes a long way toward preventing one from ending prematurely. Even if I were assured it wouldn't hurt, I wouldn't walk out in front of a bus*— there's just too much going on in my life right now and certainly no reason to pull the plug on things for a few years yet.

(*except that where I live people are expected to walk out in front of vehicles of all sorts with positively suicidal abandon. I've been honked at by annoyed drivers for pausing to see if they intended to stop before stepping out in front of them.)

00:33 / 21.03.06

That depends on the amount of fear, of course. Personally, I realised not so long ago I'm only afraid of dying when I'm not living, if you can understand me. When I'm waiting for life to happen, making plans, day-dreaming, I get afraid of death. When I'm enjoying life, doing stuff, going for it, taking the opportunities it presents to me, I don't mind the "biochemical transition" (although I'd refer to it as a transition from a biochemical state to a, say, bioethereal state) much, if not at all.

And, additionally, I'd say I'm not afraid of the pain that would come with a shark attack or torture, specifically* - in fact, I'm a bit morbidly curious as to how long I could endure it - but I'm afraid of the scarring and mutilation thereof. Is there a name for that? Other than vanity, I mean.

* pain, as fear, exists only in one's mind, after all.

Interesting subject, btw.

unheimlich manoeuvre

00:45 / 21.03.06

Is it reasonable and healthy to have a fear of death?

I'm regularly confronted with my own mortality. Work for a local Council installing and maintaining emergency alarms for the elderly and/or ill. Just thinking about the number of people that I've met in the last two and a half years who are no longer alive. *shudders*

Not that I'm suggesting that repeated proximity to people in their last days has given me an answer. Is it reasonable and healthy to constantly think of death?

00:46 / 21.03.06

Yes.

00:50 / 21.03.06

I guess anyone who enjoys life is gonna fear death in some way. It makes sense given that you can't exactly un-die or anything, and irreversible options are kind of scary. Although it could also be a fear of the unknown.

I've always had an irrational feeling that I'm not going to live much past 40. I don't know why, and it does seem a little silly, but there it is. So with that in mind, I don't think I really fear death, but then I bet when confronted with it as an option I'm not gonna like it.

01:04 / 21.03.06

irreversible options are kind of scary

I never thought about it that way. Thanks

.

I heard this Bill Hicks bit where he said that stunt people in movies should be terminally ill patients. Rather than die in some sterile bed surrounded by strangers, why not be cast in the new Chuck Norris movie? That's a way to go.

unheimlich manoeuvre

01:08 / 21.03.06

Equal parts tragedy and absurdity?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

01:12 / 21.03.06

This thread may be of interest- not so much in terms of whether it's healthy or not, but as a collection of various Barbeloids' responses to fear of death.

And for the record, I'm STILL shit-scared of dying.

02:33 / 21.03.06

I'm not afraid of death at all; it's the dying part that scares me.

Actually, it's not even dying. It's the thought that during the dying process, I might be pissed off about the fact I was dying, and thus would die discontented.

I think it probably says something significant about my personality that the thing that scares me the most about dying is the possibility of losing control of my emotions.

04:40 / 21.03.06

I can't say that I'm afraid of death, probably because I've passed out due to lack of oxygen to the brain on several occasions, and it's always been a peaceful (though odd) sort of experience. Losing consciousness is what I imagine dying to be like, and while the constant buzzing and starry, receding vision is annoying, it's not particularly frightening. Pain doesn't scare me much either, probably due to years of orthodonture and clumsiness and, ehrm, some self-injury too.

What scares me is the thought that there's nothing after death, the idea that all the dreams I've seen are wrong, the thought that I'm crazy to think that I've family and friends, not all from this life, on the other side of that veil. I'm deeply conflicted on the subject, so I've been working through my fears of Death As The End Of Me, and I'm more accepting of the idea that there is no light or tunnel or anything else than I used to be -- especially right after my father died!

I think living scares me more than dying, actually; it's harder to do well.

06:03 / 21.03.06

I've never been afraid of dying so much as I have of not living.
Whilst I wouldn't say that a fear of death is healthy, I don't think it's necessarily unhealthy; assuming of course that that fear isn't such that it prevents you from actually living instead of just existing from one day to the next.

06:13 / 21.03.06

What scares me is the thought that there's nothing after death, the idea that all the dreams I've seen are wrong, the thought that I'm crazy to think that I've family and friends, not all from this life, on the other side of that veil.

You see, for me, that's a source of delight. The fact that we will all one day stop is the great leveller, and only serves to make life - and most human beings - appear more absurd than usual.

06:35 / 21.03.06

I really don't like the thought of my family having to go through another premature death. I mean, they'd get by alright, but, to tell you the truth, those people in my life who have died have left a big hole and it doesn't so much go away as it does become familiar. If I had children, I'd like the idea of being dead even less.

A fear of death I think, is more than a mere blind burst of emotion that comes upon me. Rather, it *is* an acknowledgement that life itself is of great value. The "absurdity of life" reasoning is probably more consistent than a claim that we should value our own lives greatly and fear nothing when they are threatened with destruction. I would say that this particular "source of delight" is an unattractive way of actually living, though. At least for me.

If the context of life, however, is a prerequisite for talking about value in the first place, then the fear of death is an acknowledgment of something very true, because the foundation of all value must be regarded as a greater value than all values which emerge from it — at least while we are alive.

On the other hand,

miss wonderstarr

07:01 / 21.03.06

And, additionally, I'd say I'm not afraid of the pain that would come with a shark attack or torture, specifically* - in fact, I'm a bit morbidly curious as to how long I could endure it

Have you suffered comparable amounts of pain in your life already, or is this based on an abstract idea of how much pain a shark attack or torture (a bit general... there must be many different types and degrees) would cause?

Watching torture scenes in, say, 24 (red-hot iron to the chest until unconscious I think, then Bauer is woken up again for more), Lost (bamboo shoots under fingernails) and Syriana (fingernails pulled off with pliers) I may ask myself how long I can tolerate watching actors pretending to do it, but I am pretty sure the experience, if it happened to me, would not feel like an interesting experiment.

So I am wondering what your objective curiosity about tolerance of extreme pain is based upon.

Personally, re death, I am afraid of the deaths of members of my family, but for myself only really have a feeling that I don't want to die at this stage -- I do think I would struggle to the ends of my energy to avoid it, at this point in my life, but it's more like feeling really, really averse to it than actually fearing it.

13:01 / 21.03.06

DM: pain, as fear, exists only in one's mind, after all.

Well, I'll try to remember that when a shark has chomped off my leg and I slowly sink into the ocean because I'm losing enough blood to lose motor functions and I panic because drowning is a horrible way to go. I'll shake my head and say, "Wait a minute. Somebody on a message board once told me I'm merely imagining this pain and fear."

14:02 / 21.03.06

Actually, I've heard that drowning is fairly peaceful, once you're past the initial panic bit and your oxygen levels start dropping.

This from people who have been resuscitated, of course.

14:09 / 21.03.06

DM: pain, as fear, exists only in one's mind, after all.

Well, I'll try to remember that when a shark has chomped off my leg and I slowly sink into the ocean because I'm losing enough blood to lose motor functions and I panic because drowning is a horrible way to go. I'll shake my head and say, "Wait a minute. Somebody on a message board once told me I'm merely imagining this pain and fear."

Well, you are imagining the pain and fear. It's the blood loss and the lack of oxigen that kills ya.

14:14 / 21.03.06

And, additionally, I'd say I'm not afraid of the pain that would come with a shark attack or torture, specifically* - in fact, I'm a bit morbidly curious as to how long I could endure it

Have you suffered comparable amounts of pain in your life already, or is this based on an abstract idea of how much pain a shark attack or torture (a bit general... there must be many different types and degrees) would cause?

It's based on an abstract idea, evidently. I wouldn't be "morbidly curious" if I knew how it feels like, would I?

I used to wonder how it would be like if a jumbo jet crashed into a skyscraper, but since 9/11/01 I've stopped wondering.

miss wonderstarr

16:34 / 21.03.06

I wouldn't be "morbidly curious" if I knew how it feels like, would I?

I didn't say that: I said "comparable". I didn't mean, or ask, whether you knew how it felt to be tortured. I meant to ask, have you felt significant physical pain that you could use as a basis for imagining the probably much greater pain of torture?

It seems a bit strange (and maybe silly) for someone to say they're morbidly curious about it, somehow -- like, "wonder if it'd be cool to be raped then murdered?" I mean, personally I'm pretty sure it would be a horrible thing, and it happens for real to other people, and I feel thankful such things aren't happening to me or anyone I know. But maybe I'm just not understanding your very reasonable standpoint.

16:48 / 21.03.06

No, I can't say I have anything that could be compared in terms of pain.

My curiosity is more directed to how long I could endure it. As in "if I was part of an Invisible cell, and some military got tied to a chair and started using torture to get info from me, How much time would I be able to hold before starting naming names? 10 minutes? 1 hour? 3 days? Because everybody breaks, it's just as matter of when.

let's get back on topic?

16:48 / 21.03.06

What's 'significant' physical pain though? All of us have suffered physical pain at some point in our lives, so we all know what it subjectively feels like. But beyond that, it's not really something quantifiable - for all I know, the pain I felt when I split my spleen as a kid is on the same level as the pain I would feel if bamboo shoots were pushed under my fingernails.

I'm reminded of Stanislavski's method acting- the actor draws on the emotion they've felt in situations in their own lives to create a convincing character. It doesn't matter that the emotion was felt in a different context, only that they know what that emotion *feels* like, internally.

Spyder Todd 2008

17:16 / 21.03.06

I used to wonder how it would be like if a jumbo jet crashed into a skyscraper, but since 9/11/01 I've stopped wondering.

Oy. I’m not entirely sure how to respond to that, but I feel like I should somehow. Hmm. Maybe later.

Anyway! Honestly, death has never really bothered me. I don’t know why, but I kind of like the idea that death is always there as an emergency exit strategy. I know this is a weird way of thinking, but whatever. It works for me.

17:24 / 21.03.06

Well, you are imagining the pain and fear. It's the blood loss and the lack of oxigen that kills ya

No. There is a difference between imagining something and experiencing it. With the former, you can stop imagining it and it will cease. Do try to keep up.

On topic: I don't think there's anything wrong with a fear of one's cessation. Its entirely understandable. It's the one big event that we can't get our minds around.

With regard to your opening post, Matt, I just can't help thinking you not being scared shows you just haven't thought about it enough. I've been puzzling it over since I was a kid and it still scares the beejeezus out of me, most of the time, though sometimes I can contemplate it with equanamity.

17:32 / 21.03.06

I have contemplated it, though. And as I said, death, the unknowable poses no fear for me. I welcome the answers the unanswerable. Suffice it to say that it's the pain that scares the ever-loving snot out of me.

17:35 / 21.03.06

I welcome the answers the unanswerable.

What if there are no answers?

Tryphena Absent

17:43 / 21.03.06

I am not scared by death, if anything I find it confusing, a little off putting- I suspect I will be scared of death when I think it's close. I am scared of being diagnosed with Alzheimers or Parkinsons or malignant tumours or anything that a two week course of medication won't cure. I am scared of other people dying and the amount of time it would take to hurdle over that experience, despite having experienced a fair amount of death already (perhaps because of it). When I think about dying I hope that it won't happen soon, that it will be quite quick and that there won't be a lot of rigmarole around it and that it won't be too unexpected for the people that love me.

I dread death because I have a very strong suspicion, based on an existential crisis of minor proportions last year that there is absolutely nothing but the consciousness built by our bodies. I don't believe in mind body separation, which means that consciousness can't be separated, which means there is no soul and thus your afterlife is the deterioration or disposal of your body. In short: I think we become waste products.

Some people think of these things as reasons not to be scared but I rather like existing so I think it's reasonable to be scared. Whether that's healthy is entirely debatable.

17:43 / 21.03.06

I guess that's still an answer, though, innit? To have no answers is still a form of solution to the query.

17:52 / 21.03.06

Still offtopic, but oh well

No. There is a difference between imagining something and experiencing it. With the former, you can stop imagining it and it will cease. Do try to keep up.

You might have a point there, but I'm still not sure if I agree. Pain and fear are a product of our nervous system, it has no independent existence outside our minds. You can can make them cease with the proper mental discipline (through meditation and hipnosis, for instance). It's not easy, I'll give you that, but it's possible.

Just to illustrate my point, here's a question and a story:

Do you rather feel an enourmous pain for a moment that leaves no consequence, or to suffer a lasting bodily harm that causes no pain?

Once upon a time, my brother and a cousin witness some gang people arguing in the streets of Rio de Janeiro. One of the guys threatened the other with gun, and the latter run away. At the moment, the gang guy with a gun saw them and yelled: What are you looking at? At that moment, they wisely run away. They heard a shot but kept running. After while, my cousin looked at his leg and realised he's been shot (there was a hole in his leg and blood was coming out of it). At that moment he begun feeling pain...

I'll leave you to your conclusions.

Now, on-topic:

I think our existence in this world is marked by the fact that, in the mind level, you always lives in one place (the "here") and one moment (the "now")*

When death ensues, there are, I feel, three possibilities:

Your "soul" leaves the body, but stays in the "here" and the "now" - not much scary, you're still pretty muych yourself.

Your "soul" leaves the body and suffers a transformation an begin to exist in a different moment (the "always"?) and a different place (the "everywhere"?) - it is scary, since there's no way of telling how it's gonna be like, but, hey, at least you still exists.

Your "soul" leaves the body, but ceases from existing completely in time (the "nowhere") and space (the "never") - most scaring of them all, if you ask me.

* this is only an aproximation, of course

miss wonderstarr

18:00 / 21.03.06

My curiosity is more directed to how long I could endure it. As in "if I was part of an Invisible cell, and some military got tied to a chair and started using torture to get info from me, How much time would I be able to hold before starting naming names? 10 minutes? 1 hour? 3 days? Because everybody breaks, it's just as matter of when.

Yes, I know what you mean now. I think the same when I watch torture scenes in films -- I just suspect I'd crack quick.

Sorry for off-topic.

ONLY NICE THINGS

18:04 / 21.03.06

Pain and fear are a product of our nervous system, it has no independent existence outside our minds

Just like the leg. Walking is a product of the leg. It has no independent existence outside our minds.

Leg.

Leg.

Leg.

Word loses all meaning after a while, doesn't it?

18:10 / 21.03.06

Actually, the leg does have an existence outside our mind - it doesn't disapear when, for instance, we're sleeping and between dreams (unlike pain and fear). In fact, it doesn't disapear even when we die (at least, not for a while)

Who's talking about words here, Haus? Not me. Your last post was a cheap - and innefective - rethorical trick.

18:11 / 21.03.06

it has no independent existence outside our minds

Well, if you want to frame your arguments like that nothing has any existence outside our minds. True in a sense, but not much use. It's a cliche trotted out ad infinitum by the hard of thinking in The Temple. It's sort of true, but, so what - we remain pitfully unable to influence our perceptions in the way the way that most exponents of this idea would have you believe - ie zapping away shark bites and severed limbs with the power of positive thinking, so we might as well accept them as real. I really find arguing about this sort of thing a non-starter.

I'd would say that the reason your cousin didn't feel pain was adrenaline kicking in, and his body not allowing him too until he was in a safer space. Lots of athletes report the same thing. It doesn't mean the pain doesn't exist and TEH MIND is all mighty, it just means our subjective perception of pain is variable at times, especially when its being over-ruled by our survival instinct.

I dread death because I have a very strong suspicion, based on an existential crisis of minor proportions last year that there is absolutely nothing but the consciousness built by our bodies.

Anyway, I'm half with Nina half not on this one. I share your thoughts, but it's only a suspicion, and I have encountered some (kind of) evidence to the contrary. Not enough to swing the pendelum one way or t'other, though.

18:23 / 21.03.06

Well, if you want to frame your arguments like that nothing has any existence outside our minds.

I didn't say that. Physical objects, photons, energy, molecules, all that exists outside our minds. The eletric impulse in our nerves that our brain translates as pain also exists independently of our conscience. Pain, fear, thoughts, opinions, perceptions, intepretations, those things that our mind is made of, do not. I though I draw a very distinct line when I said that "it's not the pain and fear that kills you, it's the blood loss and lack of oxigen...". You're also using rethorics to twist my words.

As for the adrenaline kick, it's a valid argument. But what about the hypnosis and the meditation?

ONLY NICE THINGS

18:32 / 21.03.06

Actually, the leg does have an existence outside our mind - it doesn't disapear when, for instance, we're sleeping and between dreams

The nervous system, seen yesterday having an existence outside our minds.

Therefore, walking, a product of the leg, which is a part of the human body, is also logically a product of the mind, just like pain and fear, which are, according to you, products of the nervous system, which is also a part of the body.

Here's a tip, DM. If you say "rhetorical", what an able reader will understand from that is "Hello, I am Dead Megatron. I am not very bright. You are cheating by using words". Grown-ups don't throw around accusations of rhetoric, in particular not if they don't know how to use it or how to spell it.

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