BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Things that have been worrying me[1]-China's cultural heritage and the one child policy

 
 
hoatzin
09:03 / 19.03.06
I haven't been posting here for a while becausewhen I read some posts I feel intellectually about 1mm high. However I would like to know what other people think about the way the one child policy is affecting China.
I know that this policy is logical and sensible and that world population is too high generally. When it was first introduced I expected that one result would be the raising of the staus of women- boy, was I wrong.

Chinas' orphanages are crammed with unwanted little girls, many more are reputedly 'exposed', mysteriously stillborn or otherwise disposed of.

Male chinese of marriageable age are apparently hard put to find wives and females of marriageable age now have to fear kidnapping and forced marriage.

The cultural heritage of daughters leaving the family on marriage, and hence not being around to care for the elderly shows little sign of breaking down.

Many people in China fear that in 50 years China will be a 'lager lout' community overloaded with unmarried males.

What should they do? I emphasise that I do understand that this is a country problem, but there is a very large country population...if this policy is continued would it not be kinder to legalise euthanasia than to leave the babies in the pitiable conditions many baby girls endure now?
Please don't crash down on me with accusations of racism etcetera. being female myself I feel for the babies.
 
 
*
17:06 / 19.03.06
I'm posting the following in an effort to be helpful:

Hoatzin, I believe you have good intentions, but I'm going to let you know that asking that people not "crash down on you with accusations of racism etc." does not absolve them from a responsibility they may feel to challenge things they see as problematic.

Now, you've posted two new threads in Head Shop that are essentially about your personal feelings about cultures that are largely disempowered on this board. Posts about personal feelings should probably go in Conversation. Posts about news items you've encountered should probably go in Switchboard. Head Shop is for critically engaging with ideas, and if you don't want the ideas you've posted to be subjected to that, you probably should have posted them in a different forum.

I expect that people will challenge anything they feel is racist in these two threads whether or not you politely ask them not to, and I hope you'll be prepared for that. Remember that what you may perceive as an accusation of racism is considered on this board to be a valid and highly desirable form of examining ideas, so long as the person advancing the claim is prepared to back it up. The best way to handle this, in my experience, is to detach yourself from your ideas emotionally and prepare to regard them critically yourself.

(disclaimer: not a moderator.)
 
 
*
17:15 / 19.03.06
Okay. That out of the way—

It's a worldwide problem that women are not valued as highly as men, and the way this is manifesting in China is particularly worrisome, I agree. I believe their government has determined that the resources in their country cannot support their population growth. Trade embargos have not helped. On the other hand, I'm fairly certain euthanasia is also not a helpful response.

I think one would need to look at the economic factors which are contributing to the tendency to value men more highly than women. Without much knowledge of the situation myself, I can only think to recommend that a stipend be paid to families raising girls in an effort to balance out the economic factors at work. As to the sociocultural factors, those will take more effort, and probably can't be influenced too much by outsiders to the culture.
 
 
hoatzin
18:29 / 19.03.06
I did say that I know that the chinese government believe they have to bring their population down. the whole world should support population restriction. I'm not saying what should WE do about THEM, but can anyone see any feasible moral solution? If the government wanted to put resources here, they could ensure that the orphanages were properly funded and that these babies had a future that way, rather than forcing unwilling families to raise the children.
I don't mind where the thread goes; conversation seems far too light hearted, but please anyone feel free to advocate moving it: I was hoping someone had ideas about it.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
00:16 / 20.03.06
I vote for this to be moved to the Switchboard.

Meanwhile, not about Chinese baby girls: hoatzin, I wonder a little at the 'worrying' you're articulating and why yo're posting this here. I'm not sure what you want from others. What would you define as a 'moral solution', here? And why are you already asking that people not 'crash down' on you with accusations of racism, when hardly anyone has had a chance to respond at all, yet? To me, accusations of racism would be the least constructive way of thinking about this; but does your request mean that you are averse to people interrogating your reasons for asking these questions?

I'd also ask that you do a little more research and supply links or references to back up the factual information you're using. It's impossible to begin to discuss this without some factual evidence. If you did more research and had to marshal it some, you might also find out about what concerned parties think are viable 'solutions' within China itself (and other regions where daughters are not favoured.)
 
 
hoatzin
09:55 / 20.03.06
Well, just for starters, here's three 'information bites' addressing various aspects of the one child policy:
http://www.wnmu.edu/academic/hum/contest2004/onechildpolicy.pdf
http://www.taliacarner.com/thedyingroomsspecialreport.htm http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/06/19/china-usat.htm
Of course, these may not be rigorous enough for you, but they are merely scraping the surface. Few people dispute the facts anyway, the chinese governments' own figures show a hefty majority of men in China. So given that this is not the result of natural birth proportions, what is happening to the females if they're not being aborted, 'exposed', and left to die in apalling conditions in orphanages?
The one child policy, though harsh has had an enormous effect for the good on China in terms of poverty etc. Maybe only the results of living in a society top heavy with men will persuade them that females are of value.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:14 / 20.03.06
Not wishing to be funny, but can I crash down with accusations of biological essentialism instead?

Anyway. I think this probably is a Switchboard thread, as it is asking for analyses of a particular national policy. I'll request the move. I'd also like to second Mister D's request that sources and support is provided for the statements made above, in particular where the mood of the Chinese people is described - they being a famously difficult group to survey.

On the policy itself: it's worth noting that it applies primarily, and can be enforced almost exclusively, in the cities. It applies only to people of Han origin (political correctness etc). Also, as the first generation of one-child-policy children are being raised,
provisions are being built in to soften the curve of populatuon management - couples both of whom are only children can have more than one child - as a kind of grandparental reward for good behaviour, I suppose.

However, these provisi may ameliorate the effect but in no way alter the dangers of introducing this system in a society where male children are valued over female children (id est, all of them). It's not necessarily contingent upon legislation - we have seen (admittedly badly-argued and prejudicial) citations on Barbelith before of infanticide of female infants in the Punjab region of India. Part of this is about culture, of course, but there's also an element which is about finance and tradition.

So, to make a one-child policy work without creating a gender imbalance, you need.. what? Legislation? Cultural changes? Also, some way to address that gender imbalance - I'm not convinced that more men than women means the development of a "lager lout" culture, but it might be worth looking at ways to restructure legal relationships to allow for more than one partner to be legally recognised. Nonetheless, that's treating symptons rather than cause.
 
 
hoatzin
10:58 / 20.03.06
Haus, if you lok at the 3 'bites' I provided, it says all that.....
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:31 / 20.03.06
Indeed - you posted while I was drafting. So, let's assume that our constant reader has now boned up on the stats and start from:

So, to make a one-child policy work without creating a gender imbalance, you need.. what? Legislation? Cultural changes? Also, some way to address that gender imbalance - I'm not convinced that more men than women means the development of a "lager lout" culture, but it might be worth looking at ways to restructure legal relationships to allow for more than one partner to be legally recognised. Nonetheless, that's treating symptons rather than cause.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:38 / 20.03.06
Now, personally, I'm a big fan of education and gender equality - it tends to make people have children later and have fewer children, and also gives women a better chance of acting as object lessons in how valuable female children can be if not constrained. As such, it's a great way to manage population control. That needs to be balanced with freely-available and manageable contraception, of course, and that has its own problems when you have a market the size of China, in terms of supply issues.

Interestingly, if you only have one child you are more likely to be able to pay for its education... this may have a positive effect on non-coercive population management.
 
 
Quantum
18:14 / 20.03.06
There are unforeseen effects too of course.
Anecdotal evidence- my friend lives in Shanghai, and mentioned to me 'Little Emperor Syndrome' where only children are spoiled by four grandparents who have no other grandchildren.
'The Little emperor syndrome is partially due to the one child policy, also the increased longevity where now 4 grandparents are often alive in the family, and the increases SES. The children are like foie gras. (foie gras is when you force feed geese in France to make their livers big)…here in a way the grandparents walk about with calories in their pockets, yelling at their grandchildren “Eat, Eat, Eat” producing “roly-poly” kids..'

Perhaps that's not the best quote, but you get the gist- unintended harmful consequences of eugenics above and beyond the intentional effect.
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:39 / 20.03.06
So, what we see here is the possibility of a nation populated by over-weighted spoiled males who consider women to be a rare - and thus pricy - commodity (to be acquired at the orphanage doors)?

That does not sound good at all.
 
 
Quantum
18:45 / 20.03.06
populated by over-weighted spoiled males who consider women to be a rare - and thus pricy - commodity

Like the internet a bit then...
 
 
grant
19:43 / 20.03.06
I'm going to tread very carefully into this thread because I'm close to the subject.

First, let me link up the links you present (because this topic got moved, I can't do a mod edit on the original post) :
http://www.wnmu.edu/academic/hum/contest2004/onechildpolicy.pdf
http://www.taliacarner.com/thedyingroomsspecialreport.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/06/19/china-usat.htm

Now, my first reaction is that none of these seem incredibly up-to-date -- the most recent (the paper that appears to be from 2004) is based on sources that are a few years earlier. The Dying Rooms came out in the mid-90s, and caused big changes in the way China dealt with orphanages...as far as we know.

Which is the second thing to be aware of when discussing China. The government, as discussed elsewhere in this forum, has a much firmer grip on information than we're used to. The press is far from free, and research is occasionally sidelined (or never funded at all) for ideological reasons. For the common good, you understand.

Doing sociological research in China is very difficult.

Nevertheless, there are a few sources of statistics & a general sense of what's going on that I trust, more or less.

One is Unicef. That's a link to their site on China -- although the one-child policy isn't really their main concern, as you can see from just a cursory glance.

Another, more anecdotal source is Brian Stuy's blog. He's a guy from Utah who has research business -- he tries to find "finding locations" for children adopted from China, among other things. He's been to many orphanages, and spent a lot of time asking impertinent questions and thinking about China's children. I don't always agree with his conclusions, and I know many adoptive parents who view him as either a loose cannon or a sloppy researcher. But still, he's there. The blog also has lots of links to ongoing news stories and other information about the abandoned.

If you're really concerned about the abandonment issue, there's a book I haven't read that's pretty mandatory (everyone else in my family keeps wandering off with the copy, and my dog-eared Wing-Tsit Chan is just more fun) called Wanting a Daughter, Needing a Son: Abandonment, Adoption, and Orphanage Care in China by by Kay Ann Johnson.

Both Johnson and Stuy write about informal adoptions, which seem to be a major theme in contemporary Chinese culture.

My general sense after reading around this subject is that there's going to be less of a problem with mateless men then there is with paperless women -- many children *don't* wind up in orphanages, and *don't* wind up on the books, thus *can't* participate in the benefits of a communist government. No free meds & pensions if you're not in the system, basically.

More in a bit, after I've collected myself. (Oddly, it's spring break this week, and there's a kid in the office just down the aisle from my desk. She was adopted from China five or six years ago.)
 
 
Dead Megatron
19:50 / 20.03.06
many children *don't* wind up in orphanages, and *don't* wind up on the books, thus *can't* participate in the benefits of a communist government. No free meds & pensions if you're not in the system, basically.

Now, that's a problem. It could end up in slave trading, on top of all else.
 
 
grant
19:51 / 20.03.06
My (subjective, not entirely informed) opinion of the "Little Emperor" syndrome is that it has less to do with the one-child policy than it does with the amazing growth of wealth in the urbanized eastern half of China.

That, and it makes for a good headline. Because of the difficulty in doing actual research, *lot* of the accepted wisdom about China is based on catchy headlines or easy-to-sell ideas.

Which is not to say it's not a factor, just that there are other things going on.
 
 
grant
20:12 / 20.03.06
Actually, human trafficking cases have led to another black eye for the face-conscious Chinese government, so I'd be very surprised to see any thriving business based on buying and selling people for quite some time. Which is not to say it's not already happening and hasn't been for some time, and that you yourself might be benefitting from it in unexpected ways.

Read the last few entries about "the Hunan case" and "Hengyan" on Stuy's blog for more on that.

Oh, and a general note on the one-child policy: its latest iteration is, if you're in a rural area, one-child, two if it's a girl. It's also not applied to minority groups (like Dai or Tibetans).

Again, that's as far as I know. Check out Wikipedia's page. See all the red stop signs with the hands in 'em? Undisputed facts are fairly rare in this area.
 
 
hoatzin
09:40 / 21.03.06
I have read Kay Ann johnson's book, and would recommend it. The increase of 'informal' adoption is worrying for all the reasons above. I know that the situation is slowly improving, but as it becomes easier to predetermine the sex of a child, what will happen? Happily there will be fewer abandoned girls, but then the higher proportion of boys will surely begin to rise again. It has been falling a little, if birth statistics are to be believed. I haven't been able to find any statistics relating to the sex proportions of surviving children, after say 2yrs.
The one child policy applying only to Han chinese seems to me a drop in the ocean: more than 90% of chinese are Han. 'Allowing' 2 births in poorer areas will work if state benefits for 2nd births are allowed as well.
 
 
grant
14:47 / 21.03.06
Well, yes -- that's the way the policy works.

Technically (and again, as I understand it) it's not that having a extra children is illegal, it's that there's a tax credit for children that is withdrawn for any births over the limit. In *effect*, it's a hefty fine (I don't have the numbers to hand right now, but it works out to the equivalent of an American annual salary, which is astronomical by Chinese standards), but it's legally phrased as a credit that is denied you. I think.

At any rate, there's been an announcement today that I find a little disheartening: We're sticking with the plan, says the government. So, for at least five more years, the policy is going to stay in effect in its current form.
 
 
enrieb
19:44 / 21.03.06
If this could just be simplified as the result of poverty and economics, with the boys giving the parents the highest income potential. Then the balance could be restored by giving a higher tax credit benefit to the parents of girls.

There does seem to be traditional favoritism towards boys in Chinese society and I am not sure how this could be addressed.

The situation in china does worry me also; having an unstable society in the next big superpower could cause big problems in the future.
 
 
grant
15:51 / 03.04.06
Recent news story out of China tells a different story about gender imbalance.

Of course, that's filtered through the official press, so figure it might mean the opposite of what it seems to mean.

There are books to be written (and have already been written) about the influence of Mao & the Cultural Revolution on feminism in China. I don't know how much concepts of today's "career woman" might descend from ideas about female cadre leaders.

Excerpt from article:
Over 60 percent of career women cannot find their Mr. Right

A recent survey conducted by Sina.com and other media shows that 57.39 percent of some 4,000 career women at marriageable age want to get married before 30 and only 5 percent prefer being single. Why do they long for marriage but remain single?

About two-thirds of women said that being single is the result of failure to find beloved ones. However, other reasons such as enjoyment of being single and free account for 12 percent while having doubt about loyal love and marriage accounted for 13 percent. Only 5.03 percent of women who remained single is because of heavy pressure from work.

Economic basis is still essential but the right feeling is also important

The survey shows that many single women insisted on the right feeling when choosing spouses. On the question of what is the most important factor for choosing a spouse, 54.46 percent insisted on congenial interest and right feeling; 37.48 percent regarded house, economic base and career as important; while 3 percent lay importance on family background as against only 1.13 percent considered their spouses must be very handsome.
 
 
Quantum
10:12 / 05.04.06
I got a newspaper produced by the Chinese anti-communist people (can't remember the name, grr) which was refreshingly uncensored- I must dig it out and post some quotes.
Interesting point from grant about the little emperor thing, the dramatic rise in wealth recently is certainly a huge factor, but of course a vast amount of the country is in rural poverty which is getting worse, not better. Is that right grant? Increased wealth leads to increased inequity it seems.

Aha! It was the EPOCH TIMES, here's a sample-
In recent years, the Chinese government has taken actions to assist the poor, making it a top priority. However, the poverty line set by the Chinese government is approximately one-thirteenth the standard set by the World Bank. China’s poverty line of 0.2 U.S. dollars per person daily should be reevaluated
 
 
grant
17:22 / 19.06.06
Here's some first-person reporting on the One-Child Policy that should take your breath away. Did mine, anyway.

It's from the Ken, Ellen & Bei blog -- two parents of an adopted child from China are spending a year in China teaching English. They're getting ready to leave next month.

They (Ken or Ellen, not sure which) just did a post quoting "memoir" essays from their students, several of which touch on the way the policy affects ordinary people.

Brief excerpt:
One month before I was born, my mother hided in home and never went out for avoiding being found by government. One month after I was born, my mother hided in a big mountain, being looked after by my aunt. The food was provided by my relatives....

Fire can’t be kept in paper, this is the reason why my mother hided in the mountain. At the same time, my father had been jailed in a small house. He even had been suspended on a tree for the cannot afford 700 yuan [fine]. One month later, my Grandpapa gave the money which he collected from everywhere to the government and my father was released. When my Grandpapa went to see my father in the house with a steamed bread, but he found that the house was empty – my father went to see his wife and one-month-old son immediately! 700 yuan equaled to my whole family’s one year’s income at that time!

At the same year, another child who was the second child in his family was born. His father handed out 700 yuan at once because my father was a living example. But the boy had a sonorous given name in my hometown – Seven Hundred (Qi Bai).


Much more at the link.
 
 
grant
20:20 / 24.07.07
Here's another kind of amazing story about the recent family planning riots in Guangxi.

You heard about them, right?

Here's how they came to be - a textbook example of an effective prank. OK, so the prankster in question, Mr. Peng, is serving two years in jail. But still - check out his method:

Peng and Li cut and pasted the letterhead and seals from county authority documents onto a forged document claiming the government would refund the "social support fees" and give additional subsidies to villagers, Xinhua said.

They photocopied 400 copies of the forgery and handed them out to "instigate" residents in at least six townships in Bobai to demand the money, Xinhua said.


Peng decided to this because he was the father of an "unauthorized" child, and had to pay tens of thousands of yuan - in all likelihood, tens or hundreds of times what he makes in annual salary - in "social support fees."
 
  
Add Your Reply