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Revisionism or the lack of "Collective Guilt"

 
 
robertk
17:06 / 10.03.06
I don't know whether there has been a thread about this subject (nor would i know how to find it). This is what it's about:

As some of you might know there once was a man called Adolf Hitler some 60 years ago. He was the leader of a so-called political party which grew so powerful that it managed to pretty successfully extinguish all signs of a Jewish community in Mid-Europe, as well as start a war that all in all cost 50 million people's lives.

In the very country Hitler started his career there seems to have developed an attitude which i personally (and fortunately many others too) consider -- problematic, to say the least. This attitude might best be summed up in a remark that seems to inevidently come up whenever the world gets so boring that "the sun" doesn't know any better than to reach into the anti-german drawer and put the results onto its title.

Remark: "Why do I have to feel guilty about something not even my parents were involved in? Did Germany not do everything possible to show their regret for the terrible occurences during World War II?"

Then usually comes some "What do I have to do with it anyway? Why do those stupid Americans/British/etc. still blame us? We're a grown up country now!"

Of course hardly anybody living in Germany today is directly responsible for the Holocaust (even my grandparents were no more than teenagers back then), but in my opinion it is absolutely not our right to tell when our "Collective Guilt" as a people ends or to try to tell anybody how to deal with their feelings towards Germany or its past.

Leading up to some more general questions I'd like to ask you: Do you think there is such a thing as "Collective Guilt"? If yes, is there a point at which this guilt can be considered served?

You may also consider this post a tiny insight into the German "Collective Psyche", as in my opinion some of the very strong Anti-Americanism in this country can be attributed to people unconsciouly trying to deflect Germany's blame onto somebody else.

PS: I normally don't excuse for my English, but since this issue is quite sensitive please bear with me and don't refrain from asking if there's anything unclear.
 
 
elene
18:07 / 10.03.06
Hi Robert, I think you're wrong. The people who did it and those who didn't try, or didn't try hard enough, to prevent them from doing it were, or still are in the case of Pope Benedict and those of his generation still alive, guilty to a greater or a lesser degree.

You are certainly not.

I do agree that Germans tend to displace their feelings of guilt onto others, especially onto the USA. That's not a very healthy attitude, but then the USA is so guilty itself and so arrogantly self-righteous I'm not sure I really care.

You don't imagine anyone else is going to relieve you of this supposed guilt do you?

Germany may not forget her past, Germany ought not to tolerate Nazis, Germany is eternally guilty, but you are not.

I live in Regensburg, by the way.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
19:28 / 10.03.06
I certainly think that other countries besides Germany should look at their own pasts and be aware of the atrocities they performed. The grim reality of Britain's imperial project, for example, is on the whole not seen for the horror it was outside of the academy or the respctive ethnic groups. The Daily Mail runs anti-german "Nazi" jokes, conveniently forgetting that in 1939 it ran a familiar "keep the immigrants out" campaign against Jewsih refugees.

Might this thread be better in the Headshop?
 
 
robertk
19:37 / 10.03.06
Maybe I wasn't clear enough on this. I was paraphrasing a remark that I do not at all agree with. In fact, I am deeply concerned about the growing number of people who share the belief that germany as such should move beyond feeling guilty for what happened.

You don't imagine anyone else is going to relieve you of this supposed guilt do you?

What do you mean? As for me personally, I don't feel guilty, and I don't feel personally addressed or compromised by "From Hitler Youth to Papa Ratzi". In addition, I have never had any serious disadvantages from my being German. This being so, I do not feel I have to be relieved of anything, and I do not feel it is that big a stigma.

But when it comes to "You Germans shut up, what with the Holocaust and all" I can somewhat understand why some people would react in this pretty ignorant manner. Of course doing so (neglecting the guilt Germany must carry) opens every door to more dangerous forms of nationalism and all its consequences.

I guess, elene, we're pretty much on the same side.

Germany is eternally guilty

True, absolutely! But that's also an argument that somebody who feels that Germany should claim being rehabilitated would re-use as "If Germany is eternally guilty, why is country X not?"

I wondered how other people saw this, also people from other countries, that's why I put his thread up here.
 
 
robertk
19:39 / 10.03.06
Rex: I wasn't quite sure about where to post the thread, please feel free to move it wherever you want.
 
 
Olulabelle
20:00 / 10.03.06
RobertK, I do believe that there is such a thing as collective guilt, yet I struggle for a perfect example.

Perhaps the Australian Stolen Generations apology is a helpful one to examine in relation to your question? It seems to be a very obvious demonstration of public apology which leads me to the conclusion that the 24763 people who have signed presumably feel a sense of collective guilt.
 
 
elene
21:09 / 10.03.06
Thanks, I understand better now, I think. Yes, I find the idea that Germany's guilt might now be discarded - that's it's time is past – both wrong and very dangerous. It's something that cannot age. A ninety year old former Nazi murderer is still a murderer, and in a thousand years Germany will still be the land that set the Holocaust in motion.

My people, both sides of my family, come from the Clare coast, in Ireland. When the Spanish sent their Armada up against the British in 1588 they got caught up in disastrous weather while fleeing half out of control around the British Isles and many of their ships eventually crashed against our shores, for instance at Spanish Point. At the insistence of the British we, the Irish, massacred these not very innocent but quite helpless Spanish soldiers as they begged for our mercy. Hundreds of them, perhaps thousands.

I think the only use that final guilt has is to remind us of the evil we humans are so capable of. I don’t think what remains collective in Germany’s guilt ends at Germany’s borders. I think we all own it. It springs from what we are.
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
22:42 / 10.03.06
and in a thousand years Germany will still be the land that set the Holocaust in motion.

Well if that's the case, then Britain is responsible for the Concentration Camps in South Africa and other Victorian Holocausts.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
09:31 / 11.03.06
Perhaps "guilt" is the wrong word- the majority of Germans (and, yes the English) aren't personally responsible for the actions of their forebears. "Responsibility" is perhaps closer to the mark- responsibility to ensure such things never happen again.

Currently the UK is engaged in actions I find abhorrent- I'm not personally involved in killing people in Iraq, for example, but I do feel I have a responsibility to try to stop it happening. (Where guilt comes in again, of course, is that I don't do nearly enough).

And yes, I fucking hate the anti-German sentiment that is so prevalent in the British tabloid press.
 
 
Mistoffelees
11:13 / 11.03.06
Hi Robert, I think you're wrong. The people who did it and those who didn't try, or didn't try hard enough, to prevent them from doing it were, or still are in the case of Pope Benedict and those of his generation still alive, guilty to a greater or a lesser degree.

I really don´t like the pope, but this sounds unfair. The guy´s eighteen´s birthday was three weeks before the war ended. He probably didn´t do anything that could be compared to nazi crimes.
 
 
Mistoffelees
11:31 / 11.03.06
And the pope -> catholics reminded me of an example to show that "guilt" here doesn´t fit. The catholic churchs tells us, that babys aren´t born innocent. Their inherent sin has to be washed away by the water, with which they are christened. Thanks to adam and eve who pass down their "sin" of being disobedient to god. A ridiculous way of thinking. And of course german babies aren´t born sinful, either.

Stoatie found a good term with responsibility. The german people have a responsibility to not only make sure, they never commit such atrocities again. But they also must not turn a blind eye, when it happens elsewhere. So if a german source critizes another nation, when they commit crimes against humanity, it would be nonsensical for them to say: "You germans have no right to point your finger at us! Look at your past crimes"

It´s because of these past crimes, that there is a special responsibility to watch out and not to turn a blind eye to what is happening in the world.
 
 
robertk
12:38 / 11.03.06
guilt v. responsibility:

I did some research and interestingly, it seems the term "Collective Guilt" ("Kollektivschuld") is a term being used by German Neo-Nazi propagandists to promote their view that Germany has been unjustly punished by the Allies after World War II.

They claim that the above mentioned Allies employed the vehicle of "Collective Guilt" in order to be able to blame the whole people of Germany, when in their (the Neo-Nazis') opinion only a small number of high-profile party and military functionaries were responsible for the crimes committed.

Of course this is nonsense in every possible way, not one single action taken by the Allies after WWII has been justified with the argument of "Collective Guilt".

Seen this way, "Collective Guilt" might in fact not be the most desirable term.

As for the "Stolen Generations", I wonder how the majority of the Australian population thinks about that issue. Sure, the 24763 people who signed the apology might feel responsible, but what impact does this particular question have on modern day Australian politics or social life? Are there debates over it, or does it regularly show up on TV?

In what way are these past atrocities discussed nowadays in the respective countries? Is the feeling of responsibility being actively cultivated?
 
 
elene
15:58 / 11.03.06
I don't think that's too hard on the pope, Mistoffelees. I don't think it makes him a bad person and it certainly doesn't make him an unsuitable pope, quite the contrary, and I do understand why he mightn't have done more to oppose the regime. I don't think it's possible to be present at such a time and not share some guilt, unless one is either the victim or one actively opposes the crime.

The problem I have with using the word responsibility is that Germans are, like all of us, responsible that atrocities like the Holocaust never happen, not merely that they are never repeated. If someone does wrong they are guilty, in the appropriate sense this applies as well to a nation as it does to an individual. Yes, you can say there is a special responsibility, but I don't think there is. There is always complete responsibility not to indulge in such actions.

I think Germany's guilt should inform German law - as it does, and rather well - and the conscience of resent day Germans. I think British, Americans, Irish, Russians, should all be aware of the atrocities their people have committed, they should be conscious of this as a real potential for evil in themselves that (I hope) exceeds their worst nightmares, and that must be consciously opposed.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:07 / 11.03.06
I dunno... I have some pretty fucked-up nightmares...

Other than that, though, I kind of agree. Perhaps it's not so much that Germany (for example) has a special responsibility, more that they're in a position of "privilege" (though it's a pretty fucking unpleasant privilege- I couldn't think of a better word) in that they are aware of and remember the consequences of such stuff in a way that others perhaps aren't or don't. It came up in the Irving thread as well- it's very easy for me to sit here in England and pontificate about what Germany should or shouldn't do to exorcise its past. But for me it's abstraction, rather than brutal reality.

If, Gods forbid, something like the Holocaust were ever to happen again in Europe, I think Germany would be the last place it could possibly happen, for precisely that reason.
 
 
elene
16:51 / 11.03.06
Yes, Stoat, I agree with the word privilege, and it's the privilege of having the opportunity to learn from a very terrible mistake.
 
 
Pyewacket The Elder
15:44 / 12.03.06
What interests me is how we are talking about these concepts in terms guilt/punishment strategies as used by majority of westernised humans. Example:
I do something 'bad' and someone with 'authority' defines it as 'bad' and gives me a telling off. I must then generate 'guilty' in my nervous system for X amount of time until some undefined 'guilt' quotient is met (as defined by the authority).
It is actually quite surreal if you REALLY THINK ABOUT IT ENOUGH. It is even odder that a nation should have 'national guilt' - surely such a thing only exists as a concept and this concept would be measured in terms of messages communicated by the current German authority.

As for the rise of nationalist sentiment then I would point out that having the missdeeds of SOME of your populace waved in your face all the time is likly to INCREASE the chance of nationalist right-wing reactionary types to appear as a natural defense system to a percieved attack.
As another example I would note the rehabilitation of British nationalism as a media-hyped result of percieved immigration and EU influence.

The question to ask is 'what does germany have to SPECIFICALLY do to prove it has collectively felt 'guilt' and to what SPECIFIC ammount' and 'how can this be measured?'. oh and 'who's doing the measuring'

I think it is entirely inapropriate to start casting attacks against the general citizenry of Germany at that time for 'Not doing anything'.
Firstly studies have shown REPEATEDLY that people can be easily led by figures of percieved authority and even led to kill so long as they are told to do it. This does not make it right but it does mean that until you have been in a similar situation you cannot really begin to judge what those people experienced. Just one example is the way Hitler imposed control on the adult population via the Hitler youth. Adult parents where quite literally at the whim of CHILDREN who were under direct influence of Nazi ideology. I can acually unserstand this:
I am humble enough to admit that when i was about 15 and the first gulf war happened the media coverage made my developing mind want to 'be there to do my bit' 'to fight for my country' etc etc. The Nazis were a clever lot really when it came to control systems - and remember folks where all those top Nazis went after the war? America.

Every county has done apallingly brutal things to everyone else - Germany happens to have been the most overtly recent.
 
 
elene
18:41 / 12.03.06
That's not what I meant with the word guilt, Pyewacket. I meant guilt as the state of having done something understood as wrong, particularly the case where it's not possible to correct this wrong, not the personal feelings that being in such a state might engender, which are indeed largely based on fear of being ostracised or otherwise punished.

I find the notion that feeling guilty is a show one must put on for a certain time unbelievably childish. I assure you that German politicians like Willie Brandt were acutely aware of Germans real guilt, and when he displayed remorse on behalf of the German people that was no show. The idea that every nation commits terrible crimes on a regular basis so WTF already is even sadder.

Imagine standing by while your boss raped and murdered someone and doing nothing to hinder it. Perhaps you even made sure no one disturbed him while this was going on, perhaps you heard screams but it wasn’t your place to ask question or interfere, or perhaps you only saw people being taken away and never coming back and were afraid. There is guilt involved and all the claims of weakness and helplessness in the world won’t right it.

Germans don’t need to be told it’s OK to do what you’re told, Pyewacket, and neither do you or I. We need to be told in no uncertain terms that it’s not always OK.
 
 
Triumvir
02:56 / 13.03.06
It seems to me that for many years after the war, and even to this very day, Germans do feel kind of a collective guilt about the holocaust and the NAZI regieme. However, this guilt is over time turning into a kind of annoyance at the rest of the world for continuing to view Germany as 'that NAZI country.'

This transformation can be seen if we take a look at German film in the 60's, and today. In the decades after the war, German film and lit focused on trying to cast the Germans as people unwillingly swept along in a movement that they didn't agree with -- victims of a mob mentality. This common theme runs through most of post-war German film, including classics, like Das Boot.

However, in the past 5 years, German film has taken a turn. A recent TV movie about Dresden, the most expensive TV movie ever, focuses on the fact that the Germans didn't face hardships too -- telling the story of the Alied firebombing of Dresden, a German civlian center with no military capacity.

So, in short, yes, there was a collective guilt, but as the war is farther and farther in the past, Germans of course feel less and less guilty about it, and frankly, I look foward to a new generation of Germans who can finally grow up with a clean concience, without having the shadow of their great-grandparents' atrocities hanging over their heads.
 
 
enrieb
20:08 / 13.03.06
Eventually after a long, long period of time the memory of Nazi Germany will slide into history, at the moment we still have people who were alive at the time of the war or were brought up feeling the effects of World War Two.

The atrocities committed during the last world war will also continue to survive on film, this will make it last far longer in our memories than other atrocities committed in the past by The British Empire, The Spanish in South America, Americas genocide against the native Indians. There are many more examples committed by almost ALL countries at some point, it just so happens that the most recent epitome of evil is that of Nazi Germany and Japan.

The crimes against humanity committed during WW2 seem to be dwelt upon more by us as the victors; we wave our flags and point the finger. This draws attention away from our own history a psychiatrist may diagnose this type of behavior as projection ."A defense mechanism in which the individual attributes to other people impulses and traits that he himself has but cannot accept."

The easiest way to make yourself look good is to make other look bad.

We remember what happened in Germany and Japan, yet seem to brush under the carpet the genocides in Rwanda, Cambodia and Bosnia.

I do not think the the younger generations in Germany or Japan have anything more to apologize for that we have for our past actions of our own countries.

One day we will find a new epitome of evil to replace Nazi Germany, in the same way that the media has now replaced Ian Brady and Myra Hindley with the images of Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr.

I do however believe that these atrocities from the past should NEVER be forgotten. It should be a matter of shame for the entire human race. After all we the allies could have done more to prevent the holocaust.
 
 
grant
02:28 / 14.03.06
Sorry if this is rambling, but that's me right now.

Thing One: Germany may not forget her past... this may be irrelevant, or it may not be, but isn't Germany the only country which is a "he"? The Fatherland and all that? Or is that old-fashioned and bygone now (presumably as a result of the war & after)?

Thing Two: Glad someone else brought up the South African concentration camps, because they're one of my Nazi atrocity filecards. There's something else about South Africa, though -- notions of collective guilt. And apartheid.

I've been really interested in the way the Truth & Reconciliation Commission seems to have worked as a kind of... mechanism for contrition. Valuable stuff. Seems to have eased tensions, just a little. Can't be positive, but that's the feeling I get. Was there something similar in the post-war Europe, or was it all just standard put 'em on trial (or sneak 'em out with Operation Paperclip)?

I've also been interested in this kind of mindset I've seen shared by both South African and Israeli acquaintances which always strikes me as sort of odd. The mindset (which has to do with living in a state where security is paramount and military stuff is inextricably linked with everyday life) is odd, but the connection is odd too, what with the Boers being a little more Nazi-ish than most of the colonial British being comfortable with (see: prominence of AWB, and the social tensions in the 40s over which way the Union would go). That's probably more beside the point, but I'm not positive, given that the question "does it ever end" is asked about guilt in the abstract, and this seems to be related to... ummm... guilt (or something like it) mutating and passing itself down through different populations.
 
 
elene
07:51 / 14.03.06
It probably does matter whether Germany is a she, seeing as you mention it, grant. She certainly used to be, NYT 10/23/1915 - Germany Says She Cannot Stop Turks, and, given that we call Bayern Bavaria and München Munich, but a well known Munich football team Bayern Munich, it would surprise me that we bow to the dictates of the German language in this particular case. Has anyone (else obviously) referred to Germany in the feminine since the war?

Germany's contrition and rehabilitation was long and complicated, as one might expect. There was the initial disarmament, the rounding up and trial of major war criminals, followed by denazification, thoroughly, and savagely, completed in the Soviet zone, but rather curtailed in the West, leaving many former Nazis in influential jobs, or even leading US space programs. This toughness in the East was used to justify a sense of innocence of the crimes of World War II that I don't think was justified, by the way. In the West denazification led to a new constitution that's well worth looking at, especially the Grundgesetz.

West Germany really started to face up to it's past, specifically the Holocaust, in the 1960s. The second Auschwitz trials tried the lower-level officials of Auschwitz-Birkenau. The first Auschwitz trials were carried out in Poland after the Nürnberg trials and dealt with people such as Rudolf Höss and Richard Baer. Very few people were charged in these new trials, but they were nevertheless very important because they deliberately sought to bring the facts of Auschwitz to light and public consciousness. Facing up to this past was the central theme of the '60s in Germany, as reconstruction had been in the '50s, and where "das Wunder von Bern" (victory in the 1954 World Cup Final) was perhaps the great symbolic event of the 50's, the equivalent event in the '60s, though it actually came in 1970, may well have been the Warschauer Kniefall.

The ‚60s and ‚70s: Grass, Böll, Celan, Beuys, Fassbinder, Herzog ...

Concerning guilt in the abstract: yes, I think that's about right, it's effects change with time. An effect would be feeling guilty or responsible, for instance, or later, perhaps, being unusually strongly opposed to other people performing similar acts. We can of course argue whether guilt really is, as Pyewacket suggested, just part of a coping strategy used by westernised humans, and the its extension beyond those directly responsible quite meaningless.
 
 
alas
11:24 / 14.03.06
but isn't Germany the only country which is a "he"?

Since this is the English language, and we don't normally gender nouns, and this country-as-she practice is old-fashioned at best, I would hope we'd drop the whole thing and say "it" for the country (or "we"/"they" I suppose).

The whole "she" thing always seems to me to be subtly evoking the leader as the strong male "married" to the feminized country and governing "her."
 
 
grant
12:15 / 14.03.06
Yeah, it is old-fashioned. I was just wondering *how* old-fashioned, really.

I mean, once in that mindset, if we take that model of the Leader steering the Nation like, oh, a ship's captain steers his bride (ho ho ho!), then what does one make of the captain being the nation and the ship being... what, the government? Is that an essential feature of fascism?

Actually, trying to find style guides for this kind of thing leads me to this interesting Wikipedia behind-the-scenes debate on ships as she that mentions Germany-as-he, along with a couple rationalizations. And, of course, Navy guys complaining about "political correctness gone mad" (or near enough).

Interesting to me, though, that someone brings up the other Axis nation, Japan, which chose the male name Nippon over the female name Nihon when determining how to be referred to in the Roman alphabet.

Anyway, someone in that discussion does mention that the country was a female, but the Reich was a neuter, which made it a "he." Thus, fascism. And, o' course, sexism. In a neat bundle.
 
 
elene
14:16 / 14.03.06
Oh, yeah I guess it is sexist. Ouch! I'll avoid that in future. Would this have been brought up had I referred to sweet sad Éire as a she, grant?
 
 
grant
14:54 / 14.03.06
Probably yes, although it tends to be subtle enough that mentioning it would be off-topic in most other kinds of discussions.

That's "sexism" in a more literal sense, of inserting sexual distinction (and constructed gender identity) where one need not be.

Although now I'm wondering... on the "collective identity" thing again, and again on a tangent not immediately related to "collective guilt"... does Germany have a personification? Like, the UK has John Bull and Brittania, and the US has Uncle Sam and Columbia (Lady Liberty). Who does Germany have? And, if there, how is this person/these people represented?
 
 
robertk
16:10 / 14.03.06
There is a mythological (?) figure called Germania, and in some cases she has been used as a personification of German virtues as well as a symbol for the "united, democratic Germany". Today, however, most people wouldn't recognize her, let alone connect her with Germany - her time was over when Hitler decided to name his imaginary world capitol after her.
In no way is she comparable to Uncle Sam and the like.


Germania by Philipp Veit (1848)
 
 
elene
16:30 / 14.03.06
That's "sexism" in a more literal sense, of inserting sexual distinction (and constructed gender identity) where one need not be.

Yes, and my use of "she" in the original post was precisely to imply a certain sense of identity with Germany on my part.
 
 
Mistoffelees
16:40 / 14.03.06
Another figure is Barbarossa (Friedrich I. 1122 - 1190).

The myth he´s sleeping in a mountain, and will wake up in the hour of need. His name is derived from his red beard.

He was an Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire.

 
 
grant
14:04 / 15.03.06
Interesting. It actually seems like Germania is exactly like Columbia or Brittania. And Frederick is quite a bit like Uncle Sam, inasmuch as they're both martial and both (according to some) based on historical figures (Uncle Sam being, I think, a farmer who marched off to the Revolutionary War).

Do either of them pop up much now in Germany? Uncle Sam is everywhere over here -- editorial cartoons, shilling cars, costume shops. Columbia, sadly, not so much.

I'm also (probably more on topic) interested in the way this thread might dovetail with the "Is Australia racist?" thread and the "A Guilty Nation?" discussion about Serbia. Since they're about nations as conglomerates or, well, "people." Person-like legal entities.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:23 / 15.03.06
Although The myth he´s sleeping in a mountain, and will wake up in the hour of need sounds to me more like King Arthur than John Bull or Britannia. Not sure how to differentiate between the two classes with a single word, but I'm sure there is one...
 
 
madhatter
15:00 / 19.03.06
maybe "allegoric" as opposed to "mythological" - uncle sam, britannia, la marianne, columbia and the like were never "believed" in by people - not like sleeping kings or god/esses of the land-to-be-conquered.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:48 / 19.03.06
Yeah, I think that's the kind of differentiation I'm getting at... (This whole digression probably deserves another thread, to be honest, but where would it go? My guess would be Temple... if someone wants to start it, though, I guess it's up to them- I'm too drunk at the mo').
 
  
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