BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Should Moderators be able to ban people?

 
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
iconoplast
15:53 / 09.03.06
Some quotes, from the recent threads and from the wiki:
"The aim of Barbelith is to create an online space where the standard of conversation, discussion and debate is higher than anywhere else online and in which everyone has a say in the running and management of the board. We are working to achieve that by gradually devolving power as much as possible to the people who use the board on a regular basis - and allowing them to collaboratively self-define the evolving aspirations of the community."
"Distributed moderation ... works by lessening the power available to any specific individual and giving this new limited power to very many more people.
Now if a moderator wants to make a change they can simply 'suggest' it. They can do no more. It won't automatically happen. Other moderators in the same forum can see the suggestion and vote yes or no. When a certain number of yes's have occurred - or no's - then the action is either passed or abandoned respectively.
There are administrators (like Tom) as well, who can suggest a moderation action in any forum, and vote on any action across the board - but they still don't have absolute power to do anything. Everyone - even Tom - can be over-ruled if the other moderators disagree..."

"If you have a dispute with a moderation decision:
Private message a moderator in the relevant forum and talk to them about the issues raised and try and persuade them otherwise. If that fails to produce a satisfactory resolution to the problem, you can bring the matter to the attention of the board in the Policy fourm. Remember the moderators are doing all of us a favour, so be polite above all! Explain your case, avoid personal attacks and see what everyone else thinks."
If the consensus is against you, RETIRE GRACEFULLY."
"If you don't fit in, tough. You have no fundamental right to be here. Barbelith is a community, and your presence is dependant ONLY on the continuing sufference of the community."

"banning should be reserved for those who don't engage with the board other than to promote a bigoted agenda, and have no interest in participating in debate (e.g. the Fetch), and for those who abuse other posters using sustained racist, homophobic, anti-Semitic, or misogynist language, or other types of discriminatory abuse"



Okay.

So - Barbelith, in light of recent threads, seems to be looking for a way to decide what is and is not acceptable behavior, and what is and is not acceptable consequence.

Should moderators be able to suggest banning, as a moderation action? I'm not totally clear on how moderating works, but I would say that, for an action as severe as that, a very large number of agreements would be needed.

And I think that it seems very much in the spirit of barbelith to allow the moderators to do such a thing.
 
 
Spaniel
16:22 / 09.03.06
Firstly, I'm not sure Tom is in any position to alter the functionality of the board.

Secondly, er, no, mods shouldn't be able to ban people. Banning is a bloody serious matter and *demands* discussion.

To be honest, I actually find the suggestion that mods should be able to ban pretty annoying and, at risk of sounding like a drama queen, would probably leave the board if things were heading in that direction.
 
 
Spaniel
16:27 / 09.03.06
What I meant was, I find the suggestion that mods should be able to ban without first talking about it with other members of the community (and amongst themselves) pretty annoying.
 
 
iconoplast
16:31 / 09.03.06
AFAIK, Mods can't do anything. They suggest that a thing ought to happen, and when a certain number of 'yays' or 'nays' are achieved, it happens or it doesn't.

Since anyone who wants to can be a Mod, this seemed reasonable to me.

And, I mean - jesus. We don't even change the description of the Temple forum without pages of discussion. Rest assured, I did not picture this being done suddenly, or without the wringing of hands and the gnashing of teeth, along with pages and pages of discussion.
 
 
Bed Head
16:36 / 09.03.06
I find the suggestion that mods should be able to ban without first talking about it with other members of the community (and amongst themselves) pretty annoying.

Y’know, I don’t actually think he’s suggested that. Seems to me that controversial moderation actions already require discussion - all mod actions have to be unanimous in order to go through. And a mod action that required lots and lots of agreements would *definitely* need to be fully discussed if it’s to go through without a single vote against.

It's academic, though. I don't think it's possible.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
18:00 / 09.03.06
I would certainly support the idea of being able to vote people into Nid for a period of time, maybe a few days or a week where they can't post to the board, then they come back. Then perhaps if someone is unwilling to learn from that experience it gets referred to Tom. But the downside is it could cause (more?) resentment towards the moderators and, has already been said, is not possible for the foreseable future.
 
 
Spaniel
18:31 / 09.03.06
My posts above were kneejerk and badly thought out.

Ignore 'em.
 
 
Aertho
18:38 / 09.03.06
I think there are several instances where an elite Barbelith strikeforce consisting of Haus, alas, and Jack Fear could expeditiously handle an idiots' uprising with grace, wit, wrath and understranding. They could relegate the thread in dispute to a special moderator's forum and deal with it there, kind of like a Barbelithian "Guantanamo".
 
 
grant
18:38 / 09.03.06
Actually, I just had a theoretical kind of thought. The board currently doesn't have outright banning functionality built in... but it does have an "ignore" function.

Currently that's something one user uses against another user. But it seems like it'd be not-too-back-endy to create a moderator option that simply put User X on ignore for everyone. Same amount of time, I guess - a month.

From there, venturing further, it wouldn't be too hard for a dedicated group of mods to run around behind User X and delete all the new unreadable messages before the "ignore" wore off.
 
 
iconoplast
18:48 / 09.03.06
I guess my idea came from reading the Tripolitica page. I just found the ideas there really exciting, and wanted to talk about maybe trying to shape Barbelith a little bit towards TriPolitica.

Tom (I think) is trying to wean Barbelith from our dependence on him as much as is permitted by the board software. As far as I can tell, the reason Banning goes to Tom isn't (or shouldn't be) that it requires his permission. I think it's because it needs his password. The wiki says that Tom, while he gets a vote in every forum, just gets a vote - his actions still need to be ratified or whatever-ed.

It's probably an academic question, but that just means it might belong in the Head Shop, not that it's not worth talking about. So, for the purposes of this discussion, feel free to ignore the realities of board software and imagine The Barbelith of your Minds Eye.

------

inre: Nid - would a day's / weeks / month's temporary ban on reading or posting help anything? It wuld certainly be a slap on the wrist and a very serious censure. I think maybe an ability to lock people out of *threads* might be an interesting idea. So when someone is in Nid, they can read anything, but can only post to some designated 'This is where we bitch about the Moderators' area (Like P&H, I guess).

That, or 'Nid' would be an inability to post in the thread where you posted whatever it was that got you thrown in Nid. With the implicit (or explicit) idea that if you start another topic or respond in another topic in order to prolong doing whatever it is that got you Nid'ed, you're in more trouble.

I guess this is like locking a thread. Hoping that time away is enough to cool someone down.
 
 
Smoothly
23:19 / 09.03.06
I'm happy leaving Tom to execute actual bans. Moderators can already do quite a lot to stop disruption. It takes some work, but a de facto ban can be implemented by systematically deleting posts and threads. Hawksmoor, for example, was effectively banned before Tom took away his access to a suit.
It's time and labour intensive, and a concerted effort is required, but that's as it should be, IMO. And that approach allows a nuanced response (putting a stop to posting in one area but not another, for example, or modifying the response according to mood, consensus, circumstances etc).
 
 
Ganesh
23:29 / 09.03.06
I'm happy leaving Tom to execute actual bans.

I would be too if getting him to act quickly weren't, on occasion, like trying to summon Cthulhu.
 
 
grant
03:47 / 10.03.06
Good lord, you haven't been actually KILLING people to get Tom's attention again, have you, Ganesh?
 
 
matthew.
04:08 / 10.03.06
Oh, Ganesh, when will you ever learn? Your crazed blood-lust won't get boys to notice you.
 
 
Ganesh
05:39 / 10.03.06
*eldritch piping*
 
 
Evil Scientist
08:25 / 10.03.06
My only concern with the current system is a concern about whether or not the banning requests are a pain in the arse for Tom Coates to have to deal with.

Other than that I think the current system works relatively well. The Moderators are an intelligent and reasonable bunch of people, and it's not like posters have nowhere to post complaints if they feel they're being mistreated.

Damage control can be implemented if someone goes "Hawksmoor" to deal with them short-term until more permanent resolutions can be applied.

One thought I had a while ago was for the Mod's to be able to be able to hit someone with a "Time-Out" that logged them out and wouldn't let them back in for a few hours. That sort of thing would give people time to cool off before posting again.

Although, as with giving Mod's the power to ban, programming-wise it's probably more trouble than it's worth.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:59 / 10.03.06
On occasion I've suggested that there should be a mod panic button, which allows a moderator or a few moderators to lock somebody out of their suit until their IP address can be tracked, for cases of sudden and virulent trolling. Even were it not academic due to lack of programming resource, I think that's probably as far as banning powers should be extended to moderators, and misuse of that would have to be dealt with very firmly.
 
 
ShadowSax
13:19 / 10.03.06
i think if moderators are to be able to even have a panic button, they must also accept some form of responsibility for maintaining a calm environment and try to stay away from energizing dissent themselves.

with great power comes great responsibility.

(feel free to downgrade "great", but only in both places, not just one.)

 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:36 / 10.03.06
Moderators can "energise" as much dissent as they want, since dissent is one of the things that is encouraged on Barbelith, rather than something which might get a person banned.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:38 / 10.03.06
"I'm not trolling! Look! I used a smiley!"
 
 
Jub
13:46 / 10.03.06
Hm. I don't think he is trolling Haus, to be fair, just misinformed. ShadowSax, moderators do try to keep things calm if that means ticking along nicely and on topic, but as Flyboy points out, that does not mean they have to sit back and not respond to ignorant posts/posters.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:48 / 10.03.06
But seriously. Certainly, moderators would be remiss in their duties if they used the "panic button' (hypothetical) to shut up somebody they were disagreeing with. This would probably lead to them ceasing to be a moderator. Its use would be to prevent board-spaming attacks of deliberately offensive nature. Since it will not exist, it's an academic question, however.
 
 
ShadowSax
13:52 / 10.03.06
i just mean cases like this:

see haus's response

on a forum where haus is a moderator, and he's stepping in to rile things up (dissent was a mild word, i suppose). i'd hate to have haus be able to ban someone if someone were to have responded to him in that thread.

thats all i'm referring to. stuff like that. if moderators have a panic button, i think theyd have to explicitly refrain from posting comments like that.
 
 
Smoothly
14:05 / 10.03.06
Why? I don’t understand what one thing has got to do with another. A ‘panic button’ would be used to stop trolling, spamming etc. If Haus or any moderator were to use any of the tools in their very limited armoury just to get the last word in an argument, they’d be called to account pretty damn quick.

Being a moderator doesn't take away any of the freedoms enjoyed by other members of the board. They don’t have any additional freedoms to *mis*behave, but I don’t think the example you gave of an snarky aside in a Convo thread amounts to that.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:12 / 10.03.06
Yes - dreadful the way those feminists insist on portraying themselves as victims, isn't it?
 
 
ShadowSax
14:17 / 10.03.06
smoothly weaving: Why? I don’t understand what one thing has got to do with another. A ‘panic button’ would be used to stop trolling, spamming etc.

haus: "I'm not trolling! Look! I used a smiley!"

jub: Hm. I don't think he is trolling Haus, to be fair, just misinformed. ShadowSax, moderators do try to keep things calm if that means ticking along nicely and on topic

ok, just so we're all talking about the same thing.

/end 2 cents.
 
 
Smoothly
14:27 / 10.03.06
Again, ShadowSax, I get the impression that you think moderators have more power than they actually do. Acting alone, they have no power to do anything at all. All moderator actions require ratification from other mods, and I could only imagine a 'panic button' working along similar lines. But, as has been said, this whole proposition is moot anyway.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:35 / 10.03.06
If Haus or any moderator were to use any of the tools in their very limited armoury just to get the last word in an argument, they’d be called to account pretty damn quick.

For reference, and to steer the conversation back from Shadowsax trolling me, this has happened only once in my memory, and even then in a very limited way, as the weapons available to moderators are so limited - Modzero in the Head Shop was making minor emendations to the posts of somebody he didn't like. Petty rather than damaging, however.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:52 / 10.03.06
Yeah. Given that three people are required for a change to go through, it's hard for anyone to do any real damage--otherwise Modzy would never have got that shiny mod badge in the first place.
 
 
iconoplast
15:34 / 10.03.06
Ok, since the quotes I posted don't seem to be explicit, I'll do it like this:

GIVEN: Barbelith runs on a system of distributed moderation where no individual (even Tom) has the authority to effect a change without other moderators voting their agreement

And

ASSUMED (Arguable): Barbelith is supposed to be moving towards a TriPolitica-esque system of self-determination

Should we then reach the

CONCLUSION: Ban decisions should be added to the moderators' baliwick, with (I would imagine) a very large number of yes's required to pass, and a small number of no's to veto?

And then I had a subquestion:
ASSUME: We want the moderators to have access to some kind of action, somewhere on the spectrum between 'do nothing' and 'airlock.' Call this 'Nid.'

QUESTION: What is Nid?
 
 
iconoplast
15:38 / 10.03.06
For the record, i think if moderators are to be able to even have a panic button, they must also accept some form of responsibility for maintaining a calm environment and try to stay away from energizing dissent themselves.

I think that the above, combined with a janitorial dot-the-i's-and-cross-the-t's-and-make-the-summaries-rhyme, is pretty much spot on exactly what I think Moderators are supposed to be around here.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:43 / 10.03.06
But what does try to stay away from energizing dissent themselves actually mean, in practice? Does it mean that just because I have 1/3rd of a share in a topic move, I cannot challenge veiws I find offensive? I'd love to be able to maintain a quiet, reasonable posting tone at all times but we can't all be alas, alas. Sometimes a harsher tone, indicating just how twisted and offensive one finds a particular veiwpoint, is not only forgivable but may actually be necessary.
 
 
iconoplast
15:50 / 10.03.06
I think it means, 'don't do things that you would moderate others for doing,' with maybe a possible dash of 'don't vote on threads you're involved in?' I don't know the system, so I'm not sure if you can abstain from voting.

Just, you know - you're a Mod. No fair posting your scathing zinger, then calling for a threadlock.
 
 
illmatic
15:53 / 10.03.06
... and sometimes, I as a moderator, will be rude/scathing/cutting to someone just for fun.

Not as a rule, I might add, I'm personally a fan of dialogue rather than "adversial" style posting but sometimes I end up getting fed up/blowing off steam. Normally only when I find someone persistently annoying (naming no Lovecraft-obsessed, Sotos fanboy hyperchrondriacs).
 
 
illmatic
15:55 / 10.03.06
My post meant to follow Mordant's last there.
 
  

Page: (1)2

 
  
Add Your Reply