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Should pro-choice extend to men as well?

 
  

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illmatic
15:21 / 10.03.06
why are we villifying men who dont want to raise a child and not questioning women who get abortions?

I don't think anyone is vilifying them. Are they? Anyone in this thread? Or are you refering to discussion outwith it? As I said upthread I don't think comparing the two strengthens the arguement. As you yourself said so while i would agree that a person's financial viability is not parallel to body sovereignty
 
 
illmatic
15:28 / 10.03.06
To add to my last post. I assume you're talking about public debates - I think this may be a UK/US thing - the term "deadbeat dad" isn't one I've ever heard here, though I have seen lots of column inches devoted to slagging off single mums on benefits.

BTW I'm not saying that all men who find themselves in this situation should have to give child support. I don't have a firm opinion on the matter. The debacle that is the Child Support Agency in this country (UK) hasn't sold me on the idea, though this may be due to massive mismanagement rather than any "ethical" flaws in the case for claiming money from absent fathers.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:29 / 10.03.06
why are we villifying men who dont want to raise a child and not questioning women who get abortions?

hang on, though - are we? Are we not, rather, acknowledging a) that a woman has the right to decide whether a pregnancy is taken to term or not and b) that a child is a product of a decision made by two people, that c) it is in the best interest of a child to be supported by both of those responsible for its creation, that d) ideally, this should be done by consensus and that e) at the last resort, it may be necessary to require fathers to give this support in the form of legally mandated amounts of money. So, that all comes from a).

Now, I think what you're saying is "If a woman knows early on that a man has the right to disclaim all responsibility for the welfare of his child, this may make her more likely to terminate the pregancy. This may well be the case, but it presupposes that men have no responsibility for the welfare of their children by default, but only if they feel that this is a good child to take responsibility for. This seems at odds with the principle that a child is the product of two people's activities.

if a man does not want to be responsible for the upkeep of a child, as id entity and I have mentioned above, there are many options he can use to minimise or remove the risk of this taking place, which I think has to be taken into account.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:30 / 10.03.06
As has been said already, "we" are not "vilifying" anyone. In the wider public debate, neither women who get abortions nor single mothers could be said to be "unquestioned" - in fact, both are often vilified by the media.
 
 
illmatic
15:32 / 10.03.06
I think my post above could be addressed to Haus and Fly.

Also, considering a bit - and I'm even more tired than I was last night so might still be missing something of the argument (note to self - sleep over Barbelith)- my mind keeps going back to Alas's points in the F4J thread about the reduction of the tax burdens, to benefit a popertied elite, being the key behind this sort of legislation.
 
 
ShadowSax
15:38 / 10.03.06
This seems at odds with the principle that a child is the product of two people's activities.

so does a woman having sole right to choose to have an abortion.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:58 / 10.03.06
So, hang on - when you said so while i would agree that a person's financial viability is not parallel to body sovereignty, you mean that you wouldn't agree that etc?

Personally, I'm conflicted. As a man who does not want children (but who does have unprotected congress with multiple partners), I'm loth to believe that men should have to support children they might have no desire to be fathers to in any other sense. However, I also want children to have the best possible upbringing, which I, as an old-fashioned fellow, tend to asociate with at least a degree of financial security. So, that's a problem for me. what isn't a problem is that I don't think I can compel a woman to terminate a pregnancy. Nor do I think that the threat of penury is a reasonable thing for me to bring to bear on her to try to compel her to terminate her pregnancy. I dearly wish that I did believe it was, because it would allow me to feel a lot better about my lifestyle, but there we go.
 
 
ShadowSax
16:06 / 10.03.06
Nor do I think that the threat of penury is a reasonable thing for me to bring to bear on her to try to compel her to terminate her pregnancy.

but you think that the threat of 18 years of financial obligation, the kind of financial obligation that includes the only sort of debtor's prison in america, is not too much to bring to bear on a person with a mother's choice to have a child that both parties were responsible for conceiving?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:13 / 10.03.06
That depends. Do they operate on you in debtor's prison?
 
 
ShadowSax
16:13 / 10.03.06
ok, because i'm nice i'm going to help you out of this.

the real difference between choosing an abortion and opting out of financial responsibility is that choosing an abortion isnt a painless process, even if we were to require men to pay legal fees, etc., in order to get out of the financial responsibility. on the other hand, a woman has to deal with actual invasive surgery, which can not only cause health problems later on, but can harm her chances of having another pregnancy.

i think the real solution, which hopefully this lawsuit will initiate, is a revision of child support law so that fathers are only required to provide a minimum of income to the mother, given a situation where the father has no contact whatsoever with the child. right now, the mother gets not what is required to raise the child, but she gets whatever the father is deemed by the state to be able to afford.

i'm not saying that support limits should be very very low. i'm saying merely that they should be based on the raising of the child, not on the wealth of the father.
 
 
ShadowSax
16:15 / 10.03.06
and now that haus and i said the same thing at the same time, i will jump off the nearest cliff.
 
 
ShadowSax
16:17 / 10.03.06
...there must therefore be something wrong with my approach to this topic. i have to reread that article and come up with something more extreme...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:22 / 10.03.06
less frivolously - at the risk of making a point tiresomely obvious to other readers of the thread, I believe it is possible to hold one opinion and not t'other - that is, to believe that men should not be able to compel women to terminate pregnancies but not to believe that men should be blah blah debtor's prison fishcakes.
 
 
ShadowSax
16:24 / 10.03.06
to believe that men should not be able to compel women to terminate pregnancies but not to believe that men should be blah blah debtor's prison fishcakes

of course it is.

but it would really suck to have to go to jail because you got laid off. that happens. i know you won't believe it until i get you stats. but most fathers indebted to support agencies are such because of inability to pay, not unwillingness to pay.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:35 / 10.03.06
Well, I'm not likely to take your word for it, no, given that you are highly partisan and the sources you quote are usually extremely flawed, unreliable and at times bare-facedly deceitful. However, it is somewhat academic, since as mentioned it is possible to be ambivalent about the idea of men being allowed to opt out of all responsibility for their actions without necessarily approving of debtor's fishcakes. However, I can certainly see and feel sympathy for the plight of men or women struggling financially while trying to fulfil their duties.

Back on practicalities, it does seem perhaps as if one should have a number of packages for non-partnered parents determining level of funding and access to children, and pegging each one to the child's needs. Which is a bit mercantile, I realise, but might be a way to set expectations on both sides.
 
 
ShadowSax
16:40 / 10.03.06
here's one point of reference from a feminist website. i call it a feminist website because it's called ifeminists.net.

Article

scroll down to the reference to "shattering myths", and the following paragraphs.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:49 / 10.03.06
Hmmm - Wendy McElroy is representative of a particular form of feminism - individualist feminism, which we call "postmodern feminism" on this side of the Atlantic. It's not a unitary set of ideas, which is another reason why "feminist politics" is a complicated concept.

Certainly food for thought, though. Is there anything on how the picture has changed since 2003? Or indeed since 1998, when Shattering the Myths was written?
 
 
*
17:30 / 10.03.06
i also disagree with the idea that the law has taken small steps towards equalizing the risks for men and women by levying child support, because in this situation, where child support is fixed for the mother (as a recepient) and fixed but variable upwards for the father (as the payer) puts more risk in the hands of the father and nearly no risk for the mother.

When I talk about risk for the mother, I'm talking about risk of death, injury, or illness resulting from childbirth, as well as the labor that goes into caring for a child.

If we were to reduce the headaches of childrearing to mere time spent, bear in mind that for about six months after birth the child will want feeding, changing, and comforting approximately every two hours around the clock, seven days a week. If both parents are contributing labor, this can be barely manageable. If only the mother is present and the father is paying child support, then against his child support the mother puts in approximately 12 hours a day of unpaid labor, seven days a week, for the first six months. In California, the minimum wage is 6.50, I believe. In the first six months, the mother spends about 2000 hours caring for the child. Let's imagine this is time she could be spending at a minimum wage job instead. That's $13,000 for the first six months, in time, that she has sacrificed to her child's care. If she's paying for a certified childcare professional, that's at least $10/hr gone instead.
After this, let's imagine that the labor of caring for a child is reduced to a mere 8 hours/day, 7 days/week, until the child is in school. So for the next three years, that's $1456 per month in time that a mother is sacrificing to raise a child. For every hour that is filled by a childcare professional, the cost is higher. If the mother is a skilled professional, then her time is worth more, and she also risks damaging her career by taking time out to raise a child.

I don't think I need to go on much longer to make my point— even speaking in the purest of financial costs, a mother who raises a child is taking on considerable burden. Child support payments go some way— but not all the way— toward making that burden equal between mother and father, so that an unplanned pregnancy is closer to the same kind of risk for the father as it is for the mother— an ongoing commitment of time (spent caring for the child, or spent working for childsupport money).

I haven't gone into less quantifiable, but still important, burdens like carrying a child for nine months, giving labor for twelve hours, health effects of giving birth and of caring for a child, and emotional toll of raising a child.
 
 
HCE
01:40 / 14.03.06
From the introduction to iFeminists.com:

"Ifeminism turns the old stereotype of feminism on its head. Pornography and prostitution? Let women do what they want to with their own bodies. Verbal sexual harassment? If women want an equal right to explore their own sexuality, they risk encountering the offensive sexual attitudes of others. Affirmative action? You cannot create equality with men by embedding gender privilege for women into the law."

You don't say.

Unfortunately your thread title is inaccurate: the pro-choice movement does not seek to extend to women the option of refusing to financially support their children. The summary is misleading as well, since financial support does not come from the reproductive system. Usually.

Do we not have a thread, or can we not start one, on what sorts of schemes might be best for equitably distributing responsibility for childrearing among estranged parents (I say among rather than between to include poly families in this as well)? We could talk about how one might go about assigning a dollar value to the unpaid work that parents do: education, minor medical care, feeding, transporting, and so forth. I think a thread like that might draw out discussion that's a little more pertinent to the topic you seem to want to discuss, shadowsax.
 
 
ShadowSax
14:30 / 17.03.06
id identity,

If we were to reduce the headaches of childrearing to mere time spent, bear in mind that for about six months after birth the child will want feeding, changing, and comforting approximately every two hours around the clock, seven days a week. If both parents are contributing labor, this can be barely manageable.

thats a very cynical take on child rearing. when men introduce an opinion contrary to the standards of child support and custody, theyre usually criticized as selfish non-nurturers. why do arguments supporting child support need to categorize child rearing as a "headache" and laborious? it's not just your post, it seems to be consistent, this going back to the pain and suffering of women (who have the option of using birth control or having an operation to avoid conception).

anyway, the main point of your post was the compensation for child rearing. are you saying that having a child is like working for a paycheck, or that it should be? if that were the case, if your argument is literal, a person can then presumably either go to college and get a job or just have a kid. or go to college to raise their earning potential and then have a kid, without subjecting themselves to things like the people then required to hold up that income (fathers) would still be subjected to, mean things like rises and falls of economy, labor problems, health problems, etc.

and if we extend this logic, if children are sources of headaches and require labor for care, then why wouldnt a child be placed in the custody of the higher earner? that way, we could maintain a household income and all the variables that go along with household incomes, in one place, and the child's upbringing would actually be much more consistent with those of children in homes where there are two parents.

the fact is, under current child support and custody laws, children of broken homes are placed into the care and consideration of government much moreso than those in intact homes. no one throws a married father into jail for losing his job, he's not under the obligation of law to provide a set amount of money each month directly towards the well being of his children. if the gas bill is high one month and a child needs to go without a new pair of pants for another few weeks, thats a decision the family makes. fathers paying child support dont have that option.

as far as making the parallel between abortion and financial opt-outs (choice), i understand that it's not direct, and i agree that the point of the issue may lead us to debate more appropriate child support legislation. thats the point expressed in the article, actually, that the lawsuit might lead to further debate. however, i do think it's important to try to get to gender equality by recognizing similar issues where they exist. and it's a fact that many women choose abortion for financial reasons, whereas men dont have that option.
 
 
*
22:38 / 17.03.06
I am a man, and you can feel free to categorize me as a selfish non-nurturer if you wish. My point, however, is that raising a child is labor intensive. It does take time away from other pursuits, like school, work, and leisure. It is a huge sacrifice on the mother's part. Granted, there are nontangible rewards. However, unlike the tangible sacrifices, the nontangible rewards are if anything actually reduced by not having a partner to share them with, so the father's giving up these nontangible rewards does not absolve him of the tangible responsibilities. (i.e. the mother does not benefit from not having to "share" the baby with its father, so the father cannot say he is leaving entirely to her the joys of child-rearing in exchange for not having to pay its costs.)

are you saying that having a child is like working for a paycheck, or that it should be?

No. As should be clear from my post, I am saying that a mother's time is valuable, and she already makes a sacrifice that matches or exceeds the sacrifice made by a father paying custody, even if only the monetary value of her time is considered.

and if we extend this logic, if children are sources of headaches and require labor for care, then why wouldnt a child be placed in the custody of the higher earner? that way, we could maintain a household income and all the variables that go along with household incomes, in one place, and the child's upbringing would actually be much more consistent with those of children in homes where there are two parents.

That does not follow. Clearly, children do require labor for care. However, the one on whom society has bestowed the most earning power is not always best qualified to provide that labor.

if the gas bill is high one month and a child needs to go without a new pair of pants for another few weeks, thats a decision the family makes. fathers paying child support dont have that option.

Fathers paying child support also pay a steady rate, as I understand it, while the mother may have to pay an extra thousand dollars one week for her child's illness or injury, or have other emergency expenses to deal with, which she can be jailed for not paying— although, as with child support, there is a process. No one goes to jail for having been late with one payment, or else I would have been jailed at least five times for my cell phone bill in the last five years. But like any other bill, if I simply refuse to pay it, there are consequences for this. As I understand it, child support payments are the same.

however, i do think it's important to try to get to gender equality by recognizing similar issues where they exist.

Again you are framing this issue in terms of gender equality, as if women have more power than men in society at large, and that's not only false but it's harmful to women to keep propagating it. This is why people, myself included, keep getting angry with you in this thread and others where you have raised this issue— because of your tendency to frame men as the oppressed victims as a whole, when in actuality we are at an advantage in just about every situation. It's a transparent tactic of cowardly oppressors everywhere, or those too ignorant and weak to face up to their own power and privilege, and I'm insulted that other men resort to it.
 
 
ShadowSax
21:30 / 18.03.06
gain you are framing this issue in terms of gender equality, as if women have more power than men in society at large, and that's not only false but it's harmful to women to keep propagating it. This is why people, myself included, keep getting angry with you in this thread and others where you have raised this issue— because of your tendency to frame men as the oppressed victims as a whole, when in actuality we are at an advantage in just about every situation. It's a transparent tactic of cowardly oppressors everywhere, or those too ignorant and weak to face up to their own power and privilege, and I'm insulted that other men resort to it.

can you point to where i'm saying that men are in general oppressed? i'm really only referring to this issue when i talk about gender equality.
 
 
*
01:16 / 19.03.06
"Gender inequality" describes a widespread and systemic oppression of a group of people based on their gender in various ways both overt and subtle. Your use of the phrase in reference to this issue constitutes an implication that men are oppressed systemically throughout our society in various ways. You may choose to use the phrase to describe a scenario in which you allege that some men may be disadvantaged by their gender in some cases in regards to this specific issue, but you do so inaccurately and you undermine your own argument. Upon encountering such a usage, my automatic impression is that you are using the phrase deliberately to portray men as oppressed, which has the effect of undermining the efforts to obtain gender equality for women.
 
 
Ganesh
10:20 / 19.03.06
When I talk about risk for the mother, I'm talking about risk of death, injury, or illness resulting from childbirth

I feel this point of Entity's has got a little lost in the mix - and it's an important one. Pregnancy is associated with very real risks of maternal mortality and morbidity and, if male partners were to have any sort of legal 'right' over the post-conception decision-making, we might essentially bring about the situation of compelling a competent adult person to undergo a process which increases their chances of dying or becoming seriously ill - presumably against her will. I'm having trouble coming up with any truly analogous situations in contemporary western medicine.

That may be the thicker end of the wedge, but isn't it the logical extension of "male reproductive rights"?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:35 / 19.03.06
it seems to be consistent, this going back to the pain and suffering of women (who have the option of using birth control or having an operation to avoid conception).

And you keep returning to the unfairness of the family courts towards men (who have the option of using barrier method contraception or having an operation to avoid conception).

The pain and suffering of women is just as real as the requirement for fathers to pay child support.

I mean, there are options on both sides here... is it fair to condemn women for failing to take them when men also fail to do so?
 
 
electric monk
15:29 / 20.03.06
thats a very cynical take on child rearing.

Tell me you have a child or children, Shadowsax, and that your are an active and involved parent. Tell me that right now.
 
 
ShadowSax
15:51 / 20.03.06
monk,

i love responding to demands.

i do, and i am.

do you?
 
 
electric monk
16:17 / 20.03.06
Yes, I do. My wife and I have a lovely, energetic, and intelligent 10-month old boy. We love him dearly and deeply. His prescence in my life has taken me to the pinnacle of happiness and to the pit of depression, worry, and angst. So I think that the idea that child-rearing might involve "headaches" is realistic, not cynical. Apparently, you feel differently and I am forced to wonder why this is so. Futher, I am forced to wonder when and how the father's responsibility for his child became a "pre-Roe ethic", as stated in the article. This sounds to my ears as if Mr. Feit is saying men can pretty much spread their seed as they will. Did I read that wrong?

I dunno. I'm trying to stay as on-topic as possible here, but I was pretty surprised to read that statement from you, and had to know.
 
 
ShadowSax
16:45 / 20.03.06
i guess i feel it's cynical because i would never describe the activity of raising a child as a headache or in any way burdensome. yes, it can be those things, but they are offset by so many positive things that i find it difficult to agree with people who identify those headaches or burdens as things that require, deserve or even warrant any kind of financial compensation.
 
 
ShadowSax
16:46 / 20.03.06
to add: my point is that financial support should be assigned merely to assist in the requirements of raising a child, not to offset "pain and suffering."
 
 
electric monk
11:44 / 21.03.06
I agree with you up to a point, in that I think the rewards of child-rearing greatly offset any "headache". But to say that you'd never describe parenting as burdensome? You may be the first parent I've ever encountered who thinks that way. Can you understand why other people might think of parenting this way from time to time? Personally speaking, I feel I'm facing the greatest challenge I've ever faced being a parent. And I don't mean this in a negative way. Any undertaking of this magnitude is going to test one's limits. That's just the way it is. Doubly so for those who have to do it on their own.

I'm proceeding from the assumption that you're sharing your duties as a parent with the mother of your children. I am, and I feel very lucky to have a partner in this. It lessens the burdens and doubles the joys. Single parents (of whatever gender) don't get that and, while financial compensation doesn't make up for that, it does aleviate some of the financial burden on the single parent and makes their job a little easier. Less to worry about and all that.

Responsibility begins at the moment of conception, and there are a couple of different ways to fulfill that responsibility. Financial, I'd argue, is the least of those responsibilities.



Afterthought: I think what bothers me so much about this article is its infantilization of men. "Opting out" of responsibility is a tactic for children, not men, and all the legalese that'll be thrown at this by Mr. Feit's lawyer will amount to no more than, "I don't wanna!" IMHO.
 
 
diz
21:45 / 21.03.06
I understand that it kind of sucks to be a man, having had sex with a woman who's gotten pregnant and essentially having your entire financial future in her hands with not a damn thing you can do about it. Yes, I think we can state unequivocally that it would suck to be that guy.

But what, exactly, are our options here as a society?

Do I want men to have the right to force women to have an abortion they don't want to have? No.

Do I want children who are born to single mothers to have every financial advantage they can get, because they're going to need them? Yes.

So, what other options do we have? The current state of affairs does, in fact, leave certain men in bad positions. However, any possible remedy I can think of is worse than leaving things the way they are. That's just how politics and government works in the real world. You hold your nose and pick the solution that works most often for the most people, and inevitably someone gets the short end of the stick.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:54 / 21.03.06
Well, possibly "ensure that the expectations on men to provide support for their children are realistic, and that any shortfall between the amount of money those responsible for the existence of the child are collectively able to contribute and the amount needed to give a child the best possible chance in life is met out of general taxation", which is not much more than a tweak. However, I doubt that the people complaining loudest about having to pay child support are likely to go for higher taxes, so that may be a wash.
 
 
hoatzin
01:09 / 22.03.06
I think that if any man has a definite view that he does not wish to take responsibility for a child in whose conception he has been involved, then he should be ABSOLUTELY sure that he cannot be responsible for conception. If he can't do that, then like it or not he has some measure of responsibilty. It would be feasible these days to be sterilized after freezing sperm in case he changes his mind later on! Even if both parties regard it as casual, heterosexual sex has innate responsibilities. Men do have a choice- like women down the ages had to do, they can choose not to have sex if they don't want any responsibilty.
It seems to be true that women now have more choice here, in that it may be possible to take a 'morning after' pill or later to have an abortion.
Discussing responsibility after a pregnancy has occurred is a minefield of 'ifs' and 'buts', and in UK it is far from easy to force unwilling fathers to pay maintenance. I would think that where a couple have entered a relationship with the aim of producing a child, the drop out rate of prospective mothers must be tiny.

Is it really true that in US the 'morning after' pill is not freely available to those who need it for whatever reason?
 
 
*
05:25 / 22.03.06
Thank you, hoatzin, I think that was a pretty cogent statement of what I was trying to get at as well.

Yes, it's true that in the US in many places pharmacies will not dispense the "morning after" pill. It is legal for them to refuse to do so. Anti-choice activists are also trying to make preventative birth control illegal for reasons which I cannot fully understand or articulate, but which this blog covers from feminist, pro-choice perspective.

I have come to believe, after having participated in this thread to the extent that I felt able, that a man's choice in the matter, but not his responsibility, ends when his sperm enters a woman's body. Having released sperm into a woman's body, he has made a clear statement that he is ready to accept the consequences, including being responsible for supporting another human life. The life inside her body is hers to decide what to do with, but if she chooses to bear it to term, he, having already made that commitment, must follow through with his support in one way or another.

Life being what it is, sometimes financial hardship gets in the way, and for this reason child support payments are not as inflexible as ShadowSax has (perhaps accidentally) portrayed them. Fathers, even reluctant fathers, need more social support in carrying out their responsibilities, just as mothers need more social support in carrying out theirs (one of which is deciding whether they can support another life or not— analogous to this, potential fathers need education about what their responsibilities will be if they choose to risk bringing life into the world, and they need the knowledge which will allow them to make this decision responsibly). But I am not in favor of any systemic change designed to make it easier for fathers to shirk responsibility for a child which came into the world through their actions.

Perhaps my view of this situation is skewed by the fact that I am no more likely to father a child than I am to give birth to twin walrus. But I still use barriers whenever I have sex, because there are other things to worry about than fathering a child, and I have responsibilities to myself and to my partners which I take very seriously. I'd like to think if I were a non-sterile heterosexual I'd be taking still more precautions.
 
  

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