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humble request for info

07:06 / 07.03.02

I actually just need to know this for a story I'm writing, so I'm sorry to barge in on y'all. Moderator can move this to the Conversation if appropriate.

Is it the case that a spell* will not work if the person casting* it consciously desires or wills the outcome? I'm thinking mostly of the few half-remembered bits of Jonathan Carroll I read some years ago...

*not sure of my vocab here.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

07:27 / 07.03.02

That might be Peter Carroll of Liber Null...?

'Lust for result' is supposed to be a stumbling block, yes. Very Zen - perform the art, don't think about the target. Although you could argue that the injunction derives from a proposed distinction between High (i.e. spiritual self-eleveation) magick and Low (I want x) magick, and is more about snobbery than need.

Particularly favoured by occult frauds as a way of defraying awkward questions about why magick doesn't seem to work the way they say it does.

And yes, I think many people shy away from the word 'spell' as having a 'Bewitched' feel to it.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

07:45 / 07.03.02

Well, you're supposed to try and forget what your sigil was for once you've charged it. But in practice that usually just means not dwelling on your intent, not obsessing on it.

The Chaos Matrix has a ton of info. Hopefully something here will be helpful.

08:57 / 07.03.02

Why do people always point others to the Chaos Matrix. Everybody seems to forget about Tools of Chaos. Sure its just a mirror of a now defunct site, but it does have some stuff that Chaos Matrix doesn't.

As for forgetting spells, rituals, and the like I always thought that forgetting the result was just for sigils. Now I haven't done any major ritual work, but I would think one would bask in the glow of a job well done for awhile before going on your merry way.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

08:57 / 07.03.02

Is that Tzimon's site? He used to post on alt.magick - very smart bloke.

08:57 / 07.03.02

Yeah it was his site. The link I provided is to a mirror that was made before he shut it down. It's got some interesting stuff on it. I especially like "Advice to a Young Occultist".

Although, he doesn't have a website anymore, I'm pretty sure he has a livejournal. Of course, that's not a surprise, everyone seems to have a livejournal/blog/etc.

[ 07-03-2002: Message edited by: Trijhaos ]

14:02 / 07.03.02

The 'forgetting' thing is only terribly important with sigils.

And anyway, different traditions have different beliefs on the issue of 'forgetting' and whether or not the 'subject' should know about the magic as well.

That's one of the things I like about Runes over Sigils is that I don't need to 'forget' runes the way I do sigils.

For the purposes of your story, it might be better to approach it from the angle of what atmosphere works best for your story and then pick a magical paradigm from that.

Some cultures rely on the subject of the spell doubting themselves. The caster will let the subject know that they have been 'targeted' and will, to some extent harass them. In effect 'pushing' the reality of the magic onto the subject. For example, the scene in "Angel Heart" when Toot Sweet gets the chicken foot delivered to him.

Also Hakim Bey's 'Ontological Terrorism' ritual 'The Black Djinn Curse'. The essential part of that magic is in letting 'everyone' know that magic has been done.

What sort of flavor do you want your character to have? What sort of magical and/or ethnic background? Also, what sort of atmosphere and themes do you want your fictional magic to provoke?

There are plenty of different beliefs on the way magic works and all of them seem valid depending on the person and their ontologies.

If you want a post-modern, urban magicky character then maybe a Chaos paradigm would be best for them. If you want spooky voodoo stuff then your character ain't gonna be forgetting none of hir magic. S/he's just gonna push it and push it and push it till the work gets done.

[ 07-03-2002: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]

06:01 / 11.03.02

Thank you everyone - and yes, Nick, 'tis indeed Peter Carroll.

Off to Chaos Matrix/Tools of Chaos to remedy my embarrassing total lack of knowledge about everything.

And Lothar - as it turns out, I need the character (who is, predictably enough, Avon) to believe that he has to cast his spell/do his thang (I'm fudging details of ritual or technique) in the absence of conscious desire for the outcome, only to discover later that he was in fact shooting himself in the foot since a different, desire/will-driven magic(k)al paradigm was operating. If that makes any sense.

10:14 / 11.03.02

quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:

That's one of the things I like about Runes over Sigils is that I don't need to 'forget' runes the way I do sigils.
[ 07-03-2002: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]

<thread rot> I'm sure you talked about runes already, in other threads that I lost, but now I'm curious. Care to explain, or link me to an explanation on how to "charge" a rune and how does it differ from sigils?
Thanks, and sorry to go back to this probably over-discussed subject... </thread rot>

10:36 / 11.03.02

I've got a question, forgetting your sigil right, thats fine.. I always do it that way, who came up with it, was it Carroll? Who says he's right?

11:21 / 11.03.02

Screw Carroll and his silly ideas. Read "Advice to a Young Occultist". I linked to it above. You're better off learning magick from Pratchett.

I don't think Carroll is right, per se. But, he does have a point. Obsessing over the results of a sigil is bad. If you charge a sigil and just sit there thinking about it, waiting for it to do its little thing...what'll happen? Nothing. I don't think sigils are the means to an end. I think they're just a way to bolster your resolve, self-confidance, and all that. Why did you get that job? Was it because you used a sigil to affect the mind of the interviewer? Maybe. But maybe, its because you came off a strong self-confident person that would be perfect for the job. Maybe all that sigil did was help you realize that.

Sorry, rambling a little.

15:48 / 11.03.02

quote:Originally posted by Deva:

And Lothar - as it turns out, I need the character (who is, predictably enough, Avon) to believe that he has to cast his spell/do his thang (I'm fudging details of ritual or technique) in the absence of conscious desire for the outcome, only to discover later that he was in fact shooting himself in the foot since a different, desire/will-driven magic(k)al paradigm was operating. If that makes any sense.

That does make sense.

In my opinion and experience it's never just the magician's paradigm but also the paradigm around hir as well as the paradigm of the target that dictates the success of hir magic.

A chaos magician who has been very successful in London may not be as successful in Haiti or Honduras. Or, even if s/he is as successful they may be magically 'targetted' by the locals as a paradigmatic threat. Especially if competing 'godforms' and other magico-religioius aspects are brought into play.

When I was in Mexico last summer I had to be very careful. My magic wasn't necessarily compromised (especially since shamanic methodologies are known there) but I did have to be extra vigilant with my defenses. Their home turf, they play by different rules and I was a gringo tourist.

I'm not sure if that helped at all.

19:48 / 11.03.02

Hey, how about sending us this story? It sounds cool.

20:38 / 11.03.02

It's a slash Blake's 7/Diana Wynne Jones crossover.

Still sound cool?

(And Lothar, yes, both helpful and interesting!)

Less searchable M0rd4nt

23:22 / 11.03.02

quote:Originally posted by Deva:
It's a slash Blake's 7/Diana Wynne Jones crossover.

Still sound cool?

Fuck, yeah.

00:20 / 12.03.02

quote: In my opinion and experience it's never just the magician's paradigm but also the paradigm around hir as well as the paradigm of the target that dictates the success of hir magic.

A chaos magician who has been very successful in London may not be as successful in Haiti or Honduras. Or, even if s/he is as successful they may be magically 'targetted' by the locals as a paradigmatic threat. Especially if competing 'godforms' and other magico-religioius aspects are brought into play.

When I was in Mexico last summer I had to be very careful. My magic wasn't necessarily compromised (especially since shamanic methodologies are known there) but I did have to be extra vigilant with my defenses. Their home turf, they play by different rules and I was a gringo tourist.

I find this bit very interesting. I live in Mexico and have traveled from side to side of it, and I did feel a change in the "taste" of magic.
So, magickians have to fight the resistance of the ambiental magickal paradigm, besides the reigning techonlogical paradigm?

05:10 / 12.03.02

Dressing-gown remains firmly on at all times, I'm afraid, Mordant...

13:54 / 12.03.02

quote:Originally posted by ciarconn:

I find this bit very interesting. I live in Mexico and have traveled from side to side of it, and I did feel a change in the "taste" of magic.

I haven't felt too much difference between different parts of Mexico but I DID feel a difference between the (predominanty) white anglo United States (where eclecticism and modern spiritual attitudes are common) and Mexico.

Like I said, my magic wasn't compromised but I didn't exactly 'blend in' magically. Especially while journeying. Being an anomally attracted a bit of attention and subsequent intention.

quote:
So, magickians have to fight the resistance of the ambiental magickal paradigm, besides the reigning techonlogical paradigm?

That's been my experience. We don't live or do magic in a vaccuum and the beliefs of those around us effect us. Especially so if they are magically aware. There were plenty of Curanderos in Oaxaca. The average person didn't completely discount such things the way your average white middle class professional will in the U.S.

Especially in areas that are (or are close to) sacred or power spots. Places where those 'paradigms' still exist strongly.

A blurry line is the area between the local ideas of how magic works and just which gods, entities, etc. own the 'turf'.

I got my ass royally kicked magically in Antigua, Guatemala a number of years ago after inadvertantly pissing off Moximon at one of his shrines outside of the city. My magic didn't help. Appeasing him in the local way did.

09:30 / 13.03.02

This is very interesting.
I did have some problems with my magickal actgivities while traveling when I did the Castanedian way. It felt more natural on north of Mexico, and a bit clumsy on the west coast. Mexico city is so powerful, It felt like being plugged on a car battery instead of my usual 9 volt.

I haven't traveled recently, son I do not know how I am oging to do with chaos magick. Going to the coast in two weeks, and I will try to check it out.