Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.

Underground > Comic Books >

The best of... Warren Ellis

Page: 1(2)

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

01:29 / 09.03.06

I think I've said this before, but I thought "Haunted" was pretty shit really- he basically lifted the entire plot of Derek Raymond's "I Was Dora Suarez", stripped it of most of its resonance and chucked in some token magic stuff.

Dunno, maybe I should give it another go, but I really wasn't impressed.

02:58 / 09.03.06

Daytripper - I didn't follow you. From what I understood, Ellis left the title because he was unhappy with editorial interference (the decision to not publish 'Shoot'), and to my mind that's fair enough.

03:39 / 09.03.06

I think that's what Daytripper is saying.

04:36 / 09.03.06

I meant that I was very in agreement with why Ellis left the book. He went into his run talking about how he wanted to get away from elves and goathooved gibbering, and into some straight, horrible horror... and then DC came on with 'this horrible thing might distress or otherwise upset someone' and he so-longed it right off the title. Whether you think it was a good reason or not (and I do), it's at least trying for something like integrity, in that, even if it isn't a whole life-or-death deal, things became not what he'd agreed to, said he'd be doing, or was otherwise willing to represent. And, yes, a horror title, is possibly the one place where the words 'insensitive' or 'distressing' should be what the contents are reaching for, and not necessarily watchwords for avoidance. This is why, while I enjoyed Gaiman's and Jenkins' runs on 'Hellblazer', I don't find them horror really, at all.
Ellis' run would have been much better for me, if it weren't for the far superior horror things he's done elsewhere. 'Haunted' doesn't sit well next to 'Scars' or 'Strange Kiss'.

Actually, this is something I'd been meaning to get a feel for others' opinions on: There's often accusations that Warren Ellis backtracks, flipflops, or is otherwise lacking in integrity, via his writing and business decisions.
I don't see it. Which, I know, is a sucker's line, but really, I don't. Somebody want to sell me or offer a good related instance?

12:35 / 09.03.06

I think I've said this before, but I thought "Haunted" was pretty shit really- he basically lifted the entire plot of Derek Raymond's "I Was Dora Suarez", stripped it of most of its resonance and chucked in some token magic stuff.

See, I liked 'Haunted' but I've not read the book. Likewise, I thought, ermm - 'Business'(?) in Transmet was a really very effective single issue, but apparently that was a direct lift from some expose on child prostitution, too.

20:23 / 09.03.06

Ah. Cheers, Daytripper. I was genuinely confused.

22:48 / 19.03.06

i'm loving fell, which is the only thing of his that i've read.
the sense of place that he has established in just four issues is nothing short of bloody amazing, i feel like i know snowtown as well as almost anyplace in comics.

on the downside: it sometimes feels like he's rushing to resolve things within a single issue, but i suppose that's a trade off with keeping things self-contained.

great concept, creepy characters, idiosyncratic art ... it just works.

02:16 / 04.07.06

i've always been a fan of ellis, starting with transmet, authoritah and then his other stuff. even when he is being derivative and repetitive, his dialogue sounds real - a step away from the endless exposition of superhero garbage.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

02:53 / 04.07.06

I'm not sure I'd ever pin Ellis as writing "realistic dialogue." I really enjoy his dialogue, mind you, but it's got a glaring edge of artifice to it, even if it's not strictly expository. I think he veers between more realistic modes - I'm thinking of Quit City to more poptronic high-octane stuff (Spider, maybe, or Nextwave - the Captain swears more than I'd imagine is humanly possible without induced seizure, although maybe I'm just more aware of it because of the skull-skull-skull-skulling font choices). And sometimes his dialogue sounds a bit too ... non-fictional, if you know what I mean. Derived from outside sources, quoted, regurgitating information bits. That can be soothing, as well, and it depends on the work.

08:38 / 04.07.06

yeah, that's fair. mind you, the swearing thing seems realistic to me, but i grew up in a environment where c**t was a friendly greeting. it's stylised, sure, but i can imagine someone saying it - even if they were taking the piss. whereas some dialogue is so awful no-one could ever say it.

15:37 / 04.07.06

Ellis scrapping dialogue is piss-poor, though; he has clearly never been near a fight in his life. Kind've whiny kid, long hair, power-fantasy shite.

17:35 / 04.07.06

As opposed to whom? Are there comics writers of whom I am unaware who came up hard on the mean streets, who type with knuckledusters on? Who writes good tough-guy dialogue, in your estimation, and how important is it that the writer be personally as hard as nails?

17:59 / 04.07.06

Ed 'brushes with teh law' Brubaker. It's not important that they are tough or whatever, just that it's not embarrassing; Ellis is.

19:18 / 04.07.06

Realistic dialogue is shit,anyhow; nobody actually speaks 'realistic dialogue'. We all learned to talk (and to talk shit) from movies and books and comics and all. Ellis reflects that a helluva lot better than Bendis or Tom Wolfe.

Besides, it's none of it 'realistic' when you come down to it. It's not life, it's words and pictures. It's ideas. 'Nextwave' isn't meant to look like the house across the street any more than the caricatures in 'Switchblade Honey' are meant to be fully rounded and developed human beings.

Ellis has practical, effective dialogue, usually. The lecture-moments don't bug me, because I have friends who lecture at the drop of a hat - I can't believe nobody here hasn't glazed over some of my posts and wished I'd hit the delete key more - and really, if you're in an ugly fight - and all proper fights are ugly (this 'fair fight' business was invented by big, hulking bastards who like to bully people and not get a knock in the throat or testicals for it) - getting a good line off at the end... may not be the most reasonable or effective thing, but it feels quite good. Sounds good, too, in a fictional setting. Makes one seem less of an ass, I suppose, and makes one feel/seem less stupid for having been in said ugly fight.

There's a very short story Ellis recently sent out on his Bad Signal, somebody drew my attention to, which illustrates my assertion of an effective use of words and dialogue. It's not a piece to sculpt real, three-dimensional human beings. It's a piece to make a point, by shunting icons around.

I dunno, I wouldn't jump all over Gertrude Stein or Shakespeare for having 'unrealistic dialogue' y'know? It's believable, or even auspiciously, true dialogue that seems to me a superior tack, 'cause people quote the quotable, not the 'real'.

And some people are damned witty right at the spur of the moment. Remember, Oscar Wilde was people, too.

19:21 / 04.07.06

And aren't all good action stories simply adolescent power fantasies on their most effective level? Isn't that kinda the point of The One kicking the shit out of The Many?

20:41 / 04.07.06

I forget where I read it, but someone once said that all superhero stories are about one of two things: Power, and Revenge.

21:51 / 04.07.06

It's not even realism I'm on about, it's, eh, convincingness.

Ennis does convincing violence too, if he's not playing it for a laugh, but Ellis... it's just postured, and it's not really posturing I personally find agreeable so much as irritating. It's not like I hate him or anything, but violence should be his bread-and-butter - in fairness, Michael Jones in Desolation is pretty cold, and JHW3's served the fighting up proper nice, so that works pretty well. But Spider and Snow and all them... I mean, look, he's obviously never been to the future or had ice-powers either, but it's kind-of 'grew up to be a bit of a dick' Spider-Man wisecracks.

ONLY NICE THINGS

22:14 / 04.07.06

As opposed to whom? Are there comics writers of whom I am unaware who came up hard on the mean streets, who type with knuckledusters on?

Didn't the bloke who wrote Stormwatch: Team Achilles fight in the Marines, and the SAS, and the Texas Rangers, and Walker: Texas Ranger?

22:21 / 04.07.06

How do you fight in Walker:Texas Ranger? Was there a Fantastic Voyage tribute episode I missed?

22:32 / 04.07.06

Technically, Walker fights in Walker: Texas Ranger every single episode. Both in terms of the show, and that integral internal struggle that complements the asskicking-external.

23:04 / 04.07.06

Yeah, I was totally gonna reply initially "Three words, dude: Micah. Ian. Wright." He choreographed that shit, bay-bee. Ha.

Actually, I only ever read that Coup d'Etat issue of Stormwatch and it was more than a bit shit.

23:52 / 04.07.06

I think Ellis is at his best when he doesn't try so hard to write comics ABOUT something, and just runs with it. Doom 2099, Transmet, even Nextwave. IMO, Planetary lost it's way when he stopped asking himself "what bit of pop culture are we exploring this month", and started becoming Serious.

00:08 / 05.07.06

Out of curiosity, about what issue of 'Planetary' would you place that 'becoming serious' at?

02:42 / 05.07.06

It was a gradual process, starting at issue #14. It reached it's nadir at #18, where more of the issue was devoted to trapping William Leather than exploring the idea of a Victorian moon launch.

Since then, the book has been less about "mystery archaeology" than the war with the Four.

05:15 / 05.07.06

Realistic dialogue is shit,anyhow; nobody actually speaks 'realistic dialogue'. We all learned to talk (and to talk shit) from movies and books and comics and all. Ellis reflects that a helluva lot better than Bendis or Tom Wolfe.

Absolutely right. i guess it's dialogue i'd like to hear. or say. sometimes.

17:35 / 05.07.06

Funny, re: Planetary, I found #14 to be all about invasion (of the new), from different angles, and #18 to be all about the prospective, waiting for the pay-off because there'll be one, even if you don't live long enough to see it. Though fourteen would've been better if the 'children' had been little armorless Eva units as Warren may've promised before the issue hit the stands.

I think the more recent issues of 'Planetary' are just dealing with themes that are a bit more freely visualized/represented. Doing kaiju or 'eighties ur-Vertigo' is a visual lock that doing 'invasion (of the new)' isn't, necessarily.

Though, really, I think his admiration of Burroughs' Nova Trilogy stuff shows quite a bit in the way he structures his stories. It's all 'Soft Machine' just like all Waid is that one 'Legion of Superheroes' story.

18:31 / 05.07.06

It may be a matter of perspective, or of pacing. If the book was still monthly or bi-monthly, I might interpret it differently. But the last few issues especially have felt off.

But it's simply my feeling about it. And as the First Rule states, just because you feel different about it doesn't make either of us wrong.

Janean Patience

19:49 / 05.07.06

Micah Ian Wright never did any army service, apart from a spell as a reserve. He made all that Ranger shit up. Or does everyone know that?

21:18 / 05.07.06

Or does everyone know that?

DING DING DING DING DING

06:53 / 06.07.06

It reached it's nadir at #18, where more of the issue was devoted to trapping William Leather than exploring the idea of a Victorian moon launch.

That has to be one of the most strangely (and by "strangely" I kind of mean "poorly")-written issues of a comic I've ever read. It opens with this huge hairy takedown of William Leather, and then kind of radically shifts gears into the Gun Club story. It's like "My kung fu is strong! Take Leather to the ship! Lock him down, beat him with sticks! Oh, yes, and incidentally this whole elaborately-planned ambush was set up so as to coincide with this Victorian artillery shell coming back to earth, so let's investigate that, too. Oh, well, here it is! And how strange it is, at that! Well, wasn't that a coherent issue?" So bizarre.

08:04 / 06.07.06

i dunno - isn't there a bit in the structure of that issue there about how verne's 'pure' sf (whatever the S and the F might stand for, and whatever 'pure' means) was perverted into slam-bang techno-pulp-thriller by stan n jack's gleeful rifling through the sf back-catalogue in establishing the early marvel u, particularly in the case of the FF? that could almost be seen as a recapitulation of planetary's whole 'problem' as described upthread, i.e. a 'mystery archaeologist' challengers of the unknown book becoming planetary vs. the FF (with added cigarettes!)

sorry? what was that? reaching? mm. i think you might be right.

09:12 / 21.07.06

I just got around to reading all of 'Two Step' in one go, which is weird 'cause it's really short at three issues. It might not be Ellis' best, but it comes pretty damned close, at least, right after closing it, it does. Fun, fast, and horrible - with bright colors, guns, and dialogue about weasels with paint stripper on their teats.

And it does seem the strongest concentration of the basic Warren Ellis aesthetic with the happy gauges turned up into the red.

Now, I know, when this and a handful of other short Ellis minis were coming out, this was the one most people were not interested in, were expecting to flop, and so forth... but, why? Zen gunman! Shooting things! Walking camera! Pretending to be terminally apathetic! Giant mobster genitals, a Furry Curry shop, and giant mech sex... and nobody seemed to care.

Page: 1(2)