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Superselfish/Superselfless Superheroism

 
 
This Sunday
01:05 / 06.03.06
I don't know that this makes any sense or if I'm just blinded by the oddity, but it seems interesting, even if it isn't right.

So: Superheroes seem to come in two primary modes, which are the selfish and the selfless. As power fantasies, I think our tendency might be to know we ought to portray them, to view them, as selfless because it's the inherently better, more liked state (in others), but as reflexive selfish types, we put ourselves into the power fantasy and it ends up being a defense of our own selfishness.

Examples because I'm being horribly unclear:
One of Hama's last 'Wolverine' issues, and Heather Hudson tells Logan he's the 'least self-involved mutant [she's] ever known.' Without the least bit of the sort of sardonic angle you'd expect to be there.

The recent 'Nightcrawler' series has something similar to say about Hank 'The Beast' McCoy.

Superman is frequently cited as a sefless, superduperselfless individual. Better than Jesus because he doesn't have to die and he'd win in a fight unless they pinned each other up on lances of Longinus and kryptonite or something. But he's usually not. Superman is more often than not, portrayed as, yes, a dick. Unrepentent manipulative cocky asshole. Or he's Jesus married to a brilliant, snippy reporter and just being exta nice to everyone. Then he pitches a car at someone for irritating him.

Or, Batman, who is often played as a repressed, angry, snippy shiteyed sonuvabitch in a fetish suit, being all angry loner with a family on some skyscraper ledge. Or he's trying to be the greatest parent ever to the entire world. Again, dick or Jesus.

Maybe it's different ages, different creators with different opinions about the characters, but does it seem to anyone else like it's the uber fanboy angle that keeps and promotes the assholity, and a far healthier, usually outside (perceived), perspective, that does the selfless thing? Comics sold to the traditional comics audience, as is perceived, tend to paint the characters in 'darker and mature' sensibilities that are in fact, thin excuses to be an ass, while people who come from outside comics, film or theatre or novelists, or people who're into a lot of things not-comics... I'm just thinking Jack Kirby, Grant Morrison, and even Agguire-Sacasa seem to tap the selfless superhero aspect because these aren't engrammed phantoms we throw up to excuse ourselves, necessarily, but to demonstrate a better option.

Alan Moore might make a real clincher in one direction or the other, considering his eighties' bad-mood and his post-Watchmen fun hero heroing stuff with cosmic explosions of fun! But I'm irrevocably biased against Moore, so I'm not even gonna tackle it right off the bat.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
01:54 / 06.03.06
Superman is more often than not, portrayed as, yes, a dick.
Really? I've never really gotten that from Superman.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
02:01 / 06.03.06
He has his good days and his bad days.

I recall reading somewhere that a lot of Silver Age comics make more sense if you assume that Superman and cast are supposed to be acting with the relative emotional maturity of their audience (can't remember where, otherwise I'd link), hence the extremes of behaviour...
 
 
Mario
02:04 / 06.03.06
Steven Grant once wrote a column where he said that all superhero comics can be boiled down to power and revenge. He wrote:

"Superman is the ultimate power fantasy. The revenge fantasy is the flip side of the power fantasy. Batman is the ultimate revenge fantasy. That's the entire philosophical spectrum of superhero comics right there. Sure, you can expand beyond it, but the wider the range the less room there is in it for superheroes."

The selfless hero is the one who gains the power, and uses it for others. But it's a lot easier for a reader to understand revenge, I think.
 
 
Aertho
02:13 / 06.03.06
Talk about strange posting styles. DD, howzabout some extra line breaks?

I'd interested in where this thread might go, but like Mario's contribution, I'd like more examples... contemporary, golden age, etc...

The whole idea of self-ishness/self-lessness is an expandable and/or relative term. Who's selfish in Watchmen? Who's selfless?
 
 
This Sunday
02:19 / 06.03.06
I'm just thinking, something like Beast's treatment in 'New X-Men' where he's felined and fucked and his girlfriend's dumped him, et cetera... and this would be, for many comics writers, the point where you turn him into a dark, broody, dangerous psycho who haunts back alleys and refuses to talk to anybody. Instead, he gets a bit depressed, fastforward through three issue long coma, and he's back to being just a decent human being. Emma's purification through the phoenix and its fall out? Hank's there and he's a class act.
Batman in 'Night on Earth' (the Planetary cross-over) versus nearly any Bat comic in the last eight years.
Is it the market they're marketed at? Like how women are generally dumped on in early sixties comics because the writers assumed boys would read them, find girls icky and inferior, so they'd play that up and Susan Storm gets her every suggestion shot down while Lois Lane is publically humiliated on a regular basis by a handy Super-robot-stand-in or other set-up? Is revenge or selfishness easier for us to run with, when we're immersed in a fiction? Or is that just how it's supposed to be? Is this why there'll never be an Audrey Murphy oneshot?
 
 
Aertho
02:30 / 06.03.06
It's Audrey Murray, and that's her in the smartskin, silly.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
02:43 / 06.03.06
God. I need to go reread Bulleteer so far. Alix is a good example, now that Chad mentions it - she's selfish in that she's using her power to make money (to make a living, and also to engage in revenge on Sally Sonic) but at the same time she's walking around helping sad D-listers like Mind-Grabber Man and Big Thunder remember who they are...
 
 
This Sunday
02:51 / 06.03.06
Right, I'm terribly ashamed for forgetting about Bulleteer.
Her on one far end of this and, oh, The Crow, on the opposite.
 
 
Aertho
03:09 / 06.03.06
Bulleteer is so NOT selfish. You're saying a woman who's superstrong and silver isn't entitled to finding a paying job? And she's not "tracking down" Sally Sonic for revenge. I'm embarrassed that you folks still think that. Alix is the least selfish superheroine ever. Besides Jean Grey, that is.

Actually, put Jean at the self-less end of the spectrum.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
03:16 / 06.03.06
Actually, I was more trying to point to Alix being a complex heroine, and she even makes a point of framing her "team-up" with Big Thunder & MGM as a quest to find Sally Sonic. I think that she's a fairly selfless character but still ultimately hurt by her husband's infidelity. I wouldn't describe making a living off her powers as a selfish behaviour, but her concerns are definitely more than merely selfless crusading. And we can possibly argue for positive forms of selfish behvaiour.

I think you could argue that tracking down Sally for a chat or to tell her that Lance is dead is a small revenge on its own. Alix is a wonderful woman and a strong lead character with a lot of positive traits, but she's allowed to have some layers and different emotions...
 
 
Aertho
03:25 / 06.03.06
True dat. Alix is awesome. Conflicted, but thankfully, not riddled with angst about it. She deals.
 
 
Sean the frumious Bandersnatch
03:27 / 07.03.06
Jack, baby- Superman is an asshole.

Everyone knows that.
 
  
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