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Anger on Barbelith

 
  

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elene
12:18 / 13.03.06
Much as I admire alas's grand style I can't but laud your anger MC .
 
 
alas
14:23 / 13.03.06
Well, first, thanks for all the kind words here.

I want to restate for the record, here what I said in the woman-friendly barbelith thread, especially this bit:

However, I really wouldn't want the whole world to sound like me, wouldn't want all of Barbelith to sound like me, and frankly. I'm not sure I always want to sound like me...

That last sentence in particular may sound like gratuitous self-deprecation, but, in all seriousness, it is not--as I think you can tell from the rest of the original posting. I am genuinely ambivalent in some specific ways about my own style, for some specific reasons.

I.e., I am aware that my approach is in part a product of dealing with class and gender issues in an accommodating style in an academic context, one that has derived, quite plainly, from a fear, first, of not being liked, and, then, later in my life, of being written off as a bitch, an hysteric, or as falling beneath the threshold of middle class decorum--or some combination of the mix.

Although this fear results partly from the two or three times in my life when I have been personally, physically threatened--with rape and mutilation, for example (this has happened)--simply for speaking my mind, it mostly comes from the daily redundant messages about how ridiculous and annoying mouthy working class women are, and how little we need to take them seriously.

And, although I apparently often remain "calm" on the surface of my texts, I am often very angry. But. There's something ethically dubious about getting to be the good cop. I'm not sure that's fair to anyone--particularly if it is consistently one or two persons' role. Leaves me feeling a bit ...icky. I am thinking a great deal about this.

So I have to say, I also respect people who state their case point blank and make clear exactly where they stand. In my defense, that's what I see myself as doing with the skills I have at hand: I try to be as precise as I can be about exactly what is making me angry and exactly what is wrong with the idea being expressed. The energy to do the analysis and provide the evidence springs from a well of anger and, even more importantly, a desire to change the status quo. Since I'm a good researcher, I draw on that strength; it is my weapon. I use it to say: this is exactly what's wrong with your posting. That's what I try to do.

Additionally, I am a teacher; I do tend to believe that people are capable of learning but it takes time. I would have a hard time making it through a term if I didn't take this long view. (I also have been trained to do simple things like saying, e.g., "this argument implies" instead of "you imply" in my critiques.)

And, most specifically, I partly stick out the F4J thread so long and so diligently because this is an area that I am working in, so I have had an interest in really seeing, considering, working through and exploring the whole argument--I wanted to see just how the argument can be made. I stand by my statement to ShadowSax that I put up with more shit from him on this topic than I would if he were just a comix dude because here the stakes are so personal and high. I probably wouldn't have had as much patience for someone on very many other topics.

I am hearing everything that's being said here; I am contemplating it all.
 
 
HCE
15:14 / 13.03.06
for me this isn't some theoretical chin-stroking word-game, it's about my fucking life.

Haus makes a good point about the difficulty of telling what motivates others. What alas has posted, above, indicates to me that it's not at all about chin-stroking, but about trying to examine one's own anger.

Our anger toward obviously nasty posts seems simple and righteous, but probably it's more often complex and righteous. I think it is worth our while to examine ourselves and the deeper, less obvious sources of our anger.
 
 
HCE
15:15 / 13.03.06
You know, we're not going to run out of opportunities to tell somebody to fuck off if we still feel really steamed.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:49 / 13.03.06
Oh, I didn't mean to imply that alas was treating this issue as an intellectual puzzle. Ze's obviously very involved, very seriously concerned. I was referring more to the slight 'jeeze, why don't you all just calm down?' vibe I pick up around here sometimes. I completely agree that it's very profitable to examine one's anger.
 
 
HCE
16:50 / 13.03.06
Oh, ok.
 
 
alas
22:37 / 13.03.06
I admire the hell out of anyone who can maintain a cool detatched manner in the face of stuff like this.

I hope it's clear from what I've said that I admire the fire, and willingness to take the heat, of posts that make the pain real. Especially when it's done with verve and wit, and as MC says, again: assuming that I can support that emotional response with rational argument and appropriate evidence (and am not simply demanding people accept my veiws because I'm shouting), visible, demonstrable anger alone should never be grounds for excluding someone's argument from the realm of the valid.

I, too, don't believe any of this is an either/or proposition: that there's no anger in the "rational" posts, nor that there's no logic in the "angry" posts. There's a long bad old tradition of trying to retain this division, it seems to me...

[potentially a Headshop tangent]

FWIW, and for those who are interested, it seems to me that Judith Butler locates some critical roots in Plato, in speaking about the risk of over-extending a feminist claim in certain problematic ways:

"There are good reasons, however, to reject the notion that the feminine monopolizes the sphere of the excluded here. Indeed, to enforce such a monopoly redoubles the effect of foreclosure performed by the phallogocentric discourse itself, one which 'mimes' its founding violence in a way that works against the explicit claim to have found a linguistic site in metonymy that works as disruption. Plato's scenography of intelligibility depends on the exclusion of women, slaves, children, and animals, where slaves are characterized as those who do not speak his language, and who, in not speaking his language are considered diminished in their capacity for reason. This xenophobic exclusion operates through the production of racialized Others, and those whose 'natures' are considered less rational by virtue of their appointed task in the process of laboring to reproduce the conditions of private life. This domain of the less than rational human bounds the figure of human reason, producing that 'man' as one who is without a childhood; is not a primate and so is relieved of the necessity of eating, defecating, living, and dying; one who is not a slave, but always a property holder; one whose language remains originary and untranslatable."

[/Headshop tangent]
 
 
grant
02:00 / 14.03.06
that there's no anger in the "rational" posts, nor that there's no logic in the "angry" posts. There's a long bad old tradition of trying to retain this division, it seems to me...

If there was a point to my earlier deadpan jape in this thread, it's that I tend to express anger as clinical coldness, probably because I find that the most terrifying thing to run into online myself.

Like, to be Conversational-topical (oh happy accident), Michael Caine in Get Carter, at the racetrack. Being conversational. And precise. With Eric.

I mean, I like facts and precision, but in the same way that I like a table saw or a decent kitchen knife. Efficient at cutting.
 
 
*
02:40 / 14.03.06
Grant, m'dear. Some friends and I were just discussing what a nice, laid-back kinda guy you are.

No need to go proving us wrong or anything.

(Er. You don't happen to, you know, express murderous rage by outwardly being a nice, laid-back kinda guy, do you?)
 
 
grant
02:53 / 14.03.06
You sound nervous, id entity.

Why would you sound nervous?
 
 
illmatic
08:34 / 14.03.06
In response to Flyboy's post re. Shadowsax (possibly off topic). I find it very unlikely that he will retract any of his previous statements, or even acknowledge that they are any way wrong, while he's still being insulted (by Haus, largely). Surely another reason for being civil to people?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:47 / 14.03.06
And you believe he will otherwise? With respect, Illmatic, you're deluding yourself. He will see civility as weakness, and will exploit it to make more offensive statements about women, homosexuals and those who dare to hold a little bit of rape against a fellow. You may have noticed that he ignores any point that Alas actually makes, and any facts that he does not care to acknowledge, and instead uses almost random quotations as platforms to springboard more casual hatred, which has its own effect on the people reading Barbelith. If we play nice with people, we show a board that plays nice with people as they rant about evil feminists, gayers who insist on pretending that they still get a rough deal and, lest we forget, the evils of those who won't let a guy live down a bit of rape once in an every so often.

That has its own consequences. As alas says above, the position of nice, respectful, reasonable interlocutor involves complexities of its own. One of those complexities, I think, is that the work of active and passionate disapproval has to be located elsewhere.
 
 
Baobab Branches and Plastic
10:23 / 14.03.06
I'm not sure if anger is really warranted, is it? I mean people are posting on a discussion board and while feelings of pride, principle, and ownership are obviously there... can't we all sup on the nectar of our savvy industry and share the combined happiness of everyone. I mean perhaps its time to hold hands and rejoice that here is a place where all ideas can be shared and discussed reasonably with loving compassion and an inflamed organ of understanding. I'm sure that if we 'listened' to what people were 'really saying' then there wouldn't be as many 'misunderstandings'. That said everyone loves a good roast...
 
 
illmatic
10:37 / 14.03.06
You may have noticed that he ignores any point that Alas actually makes

I have noticed this. In my reading of the thread, I took the inability to respond in depth to the points Alas made as an admission of their correctness, really - perhaps this is wildly optimistic of me. Certainly, I think - I would hope - anyone reading the thread will see that he is comprehensively outargued.

If we play nice with people, we show a board that plays nice with people as they rant about evil feminists, gayers who insist on pretending that they still get a rough deal and, lest we forget, the evils of those who won't let a guy live down a bit of rape once in an every so often.

Well, I think the strongest posts in that thread have come from those who've actually taken the time to disprove and consistently challenge his statements, rather than go for the jugular straight away. I think these posts works strategically as much as anything else. Insulting someone - going in studs up - makes people more defensive, and less likely to listen to what you've got to say. It leads to pages of pages of insult and counter insult until that person leaves the board. Which is I assume the desired effect here?

I'd rather try and engage with people (well, sometimes). In my own interactions with him on that thread (which were letting getting blood out of a stone admittedly) I managed to get him to admit that perhaps, feminism is a good thing. This only happened because I wasn't insulting and trying to wind him up, and was a distinct progression from earlier on in the thread - " I don't like femininism".

I think this has worked in the past, even with "difficult" posters such as Leap and Jbsay. I'm thinkiking in particular of Kit Kat Club's intereaction with both of them, which got lost in the pyrotechnics of the rest of the thread. I know not everyone has the patience of a saint, and I'm not trying to take away from anyone's right to be angry - but stereotyping someone as a misogynistic piece of s*** - it just strikes me as too easy.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:38 / 14.03.06
Pick a response, Chief:

OPTION A - REASONABLE ENGAGEMENT: Does nothing warrant your anger, then? No inequality or human suffering moves you to feel angry? Written justifications of inequality, or writing that delights in undeserved suffering, doesn't ever prompt you to want to disagree in a fierce fashion?

OPTION B - SNARK: I see you've been paying close attention both to the world around you and the various discussions on this bulletin board to date.

OPTION C - DIRECT ANGER: If I give you a tenner, will you please fuck off?
 
 
Baobab Branches and Plastic
10:49 / 14.03.06
Flyboy,

Jeepers who peed in your milk?

Option A: would seem to be the best option surely as discussion and varied points of view has a tendency to change opinion.

Option B: Hardly progresses discussion much, but can be informative if used in conjuction with

Option C: Is probably emblematic of why see some of the people on this board as being as bad as or worse than those who simply post unpopular opinions. I mean its basically trolling right?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:57 / 14.03.06
Illmatic: could you tell me exactly where you got him to admit that feminism is a good thing? All I can read is:

i never said i was seeking to invalidate all the achievements of feminism or even to claim that society is (in some ways) still unequal. why did you think that was my point?

if thats not enough words to make you happy, please forward me a quota and i'll try to satisfy it.


Further, if the silences on Alas' points are admissions of defeat, why does he continue to argue from these disproved positions as if Alas had not spoken?

So, sorry, but I don't buy that your approach is making any more progress that anybody else's here. And, by extension, I'd rather not have somebody on Barbelith who will minimise and belittle the impact and severity of, say, rape, if they refused to examine their views in any way, because a lot of people on Barbelith with a lot more to give are likely to be turned off by the idea that we are soft-soaping somebody who is minimising the severity of rape.

Since Barbelith does not formally discipline poeple for misogyny (or racism, for that matter), it is necessary to try to address them informally, through speaking to people directly. This serves the dual purpose of addressing their issues (in every sense of the term) and making it clear that Barbelith is not a place where such views are unchallenged, or at least not yet.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:18 / 14.03.06
Chief B: OK - in which case, why not go for option A, which I agree entirely is the most productive line of inquiry. Do you feel that there is ever a justification for an angry response?
 
 
Baobab Branches and Plastic
11:59 / 14.03.06
Haus,

While I agree that yes there is justification for an angry response there is rarely good reason to respond in that way.

Assuming that most people here have a fairly liberal open minded view to most things (and anger here seems to be usually aimed at people that have opinions or express things in a less and open minded fashion) then there is nothing to really be gained from devolving into downright hostility. Simply cease interacting with that person if after repeated attempts at engagement that person refuses to get involved with the substance of the topic/thread/previous post etc or if in the end people just disagree on a certain point.

Anger to me is personal and at least to me Barbelith emphasises discussion rather than strictly loudmouthed egocentric gainsaying. Though of course ideals and realities can become divergent perhaps even happily so (barbemeets etc).

IMO its a matter of control. What really can be gained from shouting?

Given that this is an online forum there will be people that post simply to get a rise from people, but i expect they get weeded out pretty quickly, by virtue of on the whole people don't pay them much mind (I haven't read any posts like that to date - but then I'm still going through the archives)
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:59 / 14.03.06
I'd rather not have somebody on Barbelith who will minimise and belittle the impact and severity of, say, rape...

Do you think we should be considering a ban of Shadowsax, Haus? This is meant as an honest inquiry, btw, not a snark - I perhaps haven't been following ss as closely as you have.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:16 / 14.03.06

IMO its a matter of control. What really can be gained from shouting?


Anger. We're talking about anger, CB, not shouting. Anger, as discussed above, is manifested and expressed in a number of different ways, of which shouting is one.

Lurid: That's a good question. I think, essentially, that he adds nothing of worth to Barbelith and that if not challenged he will give the impression that Barbelith is tolerant of a particular form of misogyny (and, for that matter, homophobia) that is more likely to repel people who are more likely to add something of worth to Barbelith. I believe further that he has no intention of even considering his views - as alas says above, he simply ignores any evidence that the evidence he offers is prejudicial or incorrect, as it is more imnportant that his worldview remain unchallenged than that it relate to reality. So, I don't really understand why he is here, except that it gives him an opportunity to insult feminists without havng to meet any. On the other hand, very intelligent and respected members are clearly still able to feel that engaging with him is profitable, and who am I to contradict them?
 
 
illmatic
12:40 / 14.03.06
Haus, I was thinking of this specifically: i do see a lot of positive achievements from feminism, yes.

More later, busy at work.
 
 
illmatic
14:09 / 14.03.06
.. it is a bit like looking for a rare sub atomic particle though.

BTW I'm not particularly keen on engaging with him myself, certainly not on the subjects previously discussed. What I was trying to point out was that there appear to me to be some small signs that he might have modified his views a little. Maybe I'm completely wrong here, I dunno. Secondly, that insulting him makes it very unlikely he'll post any sort of retraction, and increases the probability he'll say soemthing inflammatory - it's the "feeding the troll" argument again. Case in point - I don't think he would have made the stupid comments he made in the "Apologies for an idiotic name" thread, if he hadn't been so uniformly hammered.
 
 
Evil Scientist
14:12 / 14.03.06
Anger, in itself, isn't unhelpful on a message board. Surely what leads to problems is when people's anger causes them to post as soon as they've read something that gets the angry-monkeys bubbling in their head?

It's not necessary to post a response to something as soon as you read it, because there's a fairly good chance the person you're replying to won't re-check the board for hours, or even days. Generally there's no harm in taking 30 minutes to cool off slightly before wading back into it with someone.

An angry post doesn't have to be badly though out.

As Flyboy points out above, there are a variety of different styles of "Post-Fu" applied to deal with anger-inducing posts. Personally I do believe that the more aggressive techniques are more likely to be, well, tolerated if they're coming from a veteren poster.

That's not to suggest that veterens get away with more simply because they have tenure on the board, or that it's due to some hidden cabal watching each other's backs. But because the older posters have had way more interaction with each other (on and off of the boards). Let's face it, if a long-term poster getting angry then it's probable that they've been on here long enough to know how to compose a heated reply without compromising Barb-Policy.

I'm certainly not proposing that us younger posters should automatically react to a veteren poster's anger with deference. But I reckon we do need to be cooler in our replies, primarily because we haven't (for want of a better word) "proved" ourselves on here.

Does any of that nonsense make sense?
 
 
Baobab Branches and Plastic
14:19 / 14.03.06
Haus,

I see your point, and you're right. Anger expressed lucidly can be productive if people are to understand why their views not accepted outside their own clique. But as you later say if even one of the parties are not willing to communicate (in a more developed sense) then possibly it will be for naught.

By shouting I was referring to people simply responding with an epithet or similar, an angry response, but not a constructive one.

The title of the thread and some of its posts seemed to be an advocation of when it was okay to abuse another poster. I don't really think it ever is to this I stick to my position that expressing anger (as an emotional response) is not best practice, expressing a reasoned contrary POV with passion is. Of course, in the heat of the moment you can't really blame people for an outburst here or there.

However just as letting people with homophobic or misogynistic views get away with it could alter people's perception of Barbelith so does personal abuse which shouldn't be condoned (I'm not in particular saying that anyone does but perhaps it should be recognised).

That said in case that you bring up of the person attacking feminists (while unfamiliar with that thread) obviously that's not the sort of thing that should be allowed but (following illmatic) I still think that abuse isn't the most productive way of converting someone.
 
 
Baobab Branches and Plastic
14:45 / 14.03.06
Acutally, thinking a bit more

The title of the thread and some of its posts seemed to be an advocation of when it was okay to abuse another poster.

The title doesn't actually say that. Sorry I was till stuck a little bit in the 'angry response equals abuse' mindset... see change can happen from discussion!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:55 / 14.03.06
Ah, well. Our role as missionary is good and noble. Our work as guardian also.

Case in point - I don't think he would have made the stupid comments he made in the "Apologies for an idiotic name" thread, if he hadn't been so uniformly hammered.

Hoom. You see, I disagree. One might be able to claim that his behaviour in threads where he had been "hammered" might have been exacerbated by that treatment. But bowling into a thread with no mention of him? You can think that he would not have made the stupid comments he made, and I can think differently, but that is mere speculation. Point being, he did make them, and that I don't think being angry at not being taken seriously elsewhere is a convincing justification for the sort of comments he made.

You see, we're talking about anger here, and in this case we keep coming back to anger directed at Shadowsax for his attitudes. But that neglects to consider that Barbelith is not a closed system, and that anger can come from other sources. In this case, I'd point the finger at Shadowsax's anger against women - horribly emancipated creatures who run roughshod over the rights of man. So, confronted by such a hysterical reaction to such a simple invocation of a verb that describes what women do to fathers' rights all the time, I doubt that he could have done otherwise, much less would have. Ultimately, that has to remain in the realm of the hypothetical.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:20 / 14.03.06
That post was a real "Why the heck do I bother with this board again?" moment for me. (And yeah, I responded angry--I sometimes regret that, but not this time).

I really did not see anything in that thread that warranted Shadowsax bowling in with that, except that it smelt of the evil feminism and he felt the need to spray it with his own pungent fluids. It is certainly possible to wind someone up with angry responses who might otherwise have calmed down and rethought hir approach, but I really don't think this is one of those cases.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:28 / 14.03.06
It wasn't even that - it was the fact that he could, in a single post, piss off more people than he'd managed in his time on the board up until then that motivated him. That was why he posted - like I said at the time, classic troll behaviour.
 
 
illmatic
17:38 / 14.03.06
Fair enough. Fair comments from all. I hope he learns something from the responses there, and here, if he continues to stay around and even if he doesn't.
 
 
HCE
19:19 / 14.03.06
That post was a real "Why the heck do I bother with this board again?" moment for me.

It's not just *Mr* Carnival who felt that way, either, and the possible loss of or damage to posters who consistently try to write and think sincerely and challenge themselves seems to me too high a price to pay.

I think that what alas is doing is not quite the same thing as what Illmatic suggests, and I want to try to explain what the difference is. Please bear with me as I don't have it down pat and may need to revise or clarify.

There seems to be the 'getting snarky winds everybody up' camp which basically argues for better behavior. The idea here is that nobody profits from lost tempers, and we make ourselves sound intolerant, elitist, hostile. The profit that's lost in this case is the calmer behavior that the people 'attacked' might exhibit.

The second camp, which so far has only alas in it, argues for better behavior as well, but in this case the profit to be gained is in a more profound and subtle understanding of our own positions -- lemonade from lemons. alas seems to be saying that there is more to learned (indirectly) from shadowsax than what he thinks of women -- we can learn something about how people are treated by the family court system and what this tells us about areas of conflict between feminist and populist goals, for example.

I locate myself somewhere in the region, but not quite inside either camp. I have no interest in hearing here what people who hold views like those of shadowsax might say when they are calm and engaged, because their views are deeply repellent to me. If I want to know what horrible sorts of things people think, I have no shortage of resources for information.

My primary problem with the second camp is that I am not convinced that I need or want lemonade. You can look in the Femme Identity thread and see a perfectly civil conversation that didn't have to run on for fifteen pages of debunking crude and boring myths before it got around to asking interesting questions.

I can wait a little longer to find out what happens in this case, though I am not harboring high hopes.
 
 
illmatic
20:15 / 14.03.06
Good post, Fred.

I did have something cross my mind perhaps similar to the second camp position when I was reading SS's posts (perhaps without Alas's brainpower though). I didn't want to go into that in this thread, because I was focused more on the issue of anger and it's expression. What I found it interesting when reading his posts was to note how he constructed his worldview, selected his evidence and fed his biases which made me think of the way in which I do the same - am I predisposed to simply accept feminist arguments because I think they are a "good thing" for instance, without really knowing a lot about them? It certainly exposes some weaknesses in my thinking and gaps in my knowledge anyway.

I do think that having this kind of understanding about how you arrive at your own position and how others arrive at there's makes communication a lot easier. Though, as you say, who knows what will happen in this case?

On the whole anger issue - thinking about this this afternoon. I think one of the things that annoys me about it's expression (often from people who're good friends of mine) is it very much contradicts with what I'd call my off-board values. It's connected with my sense of ethics, values I hold and the way I try and act in wider life. I realise this is one of the reasons that I'm critical of its' expression here. Still need to think this one through.
 
 
rising and revolving
20:28 / 14.03.06
I'd like to consider myself, as much as possible, in the second camp[1] with a small hope of reform on top. That's where the 'winding people up' thing goes wrong, IMO - we pretty much lose any chance of these people turning around once they're on the defensive.

Thanks for clarifying a lot of things I've been thinking but not understanding, fred.

[1] In terms of ideal behaviour, not in terms of how I actually behave most of the time.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:36 / 14.03.06
On the whole anger issue - thinking about this this afternoon. I think one of the things that annoys me about it's expression (often from people who're good friends of mine) is it very much contradicts with what I'd call my off-board values. It's connected with my sense of ethics, values I hold and the way I try and act in wider life. I realise this is one of the reasons that I'm critical of its' expression here.

Bear with me because this is very difficult to put into words.

We exist in a world where perceptions of anger are forced onto us socially. So male anger may be perceived as undue aggression where female anger is righteous, male anger might be viewed as impressive, female anger as absurd. Those are perceptions we have to avoid boxing ourselves into because in doing it to ourselves we're denying a very real emotion that is as important individually as rationality. It's odd to disempower ourselves because we think cool rationality may serve a purpose, if something makes you angry than the service to yourself is to examine why you're angry and sometimes you might find that you are right.

What bothers me about the response to ShadowSax is that people here are examining their anger and in their rational response to themselves they are treating this as if he has not behaved in a way that rightfully incited that response. What we have before us is a person who has written sexism across this board in the most fundamental and overt way and I perceive the respondents as gendering themselves in their reaction to him and his sexism. I think that a number of people are acting out a fear of presenting the female absurd or the male aggressor and in doing so are opting for a rationality in response to someone who at no time has presented that rationality himself.

I want people to ask themselves what precisely they are learning from ShadowSax. Are they honing their ability to rationalise arguments with a person who consistently undercuts his own expressions of positivity? Is it actually healthy to use a person in that way when there is a consistent failure in communication between the individual and the group? Are you actually achieving anything that isn't beneficial solely for yourself?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:43 / 14.03.06
Personally I'm getting nothing from Shadowsax that I couldn't get from the Daily Mail, but I already asked and I'm not allowed to toss him out the airlock.
 
  

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