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Let's discuss Conversation

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

22:07 / 01.03.06

(Okay, first off, I want to make it clear that I'm not having a go at Saltation here- what you're about to read is indicative of quite a common assumption here on Barbelith- it's just that this is the most recent example and the one that got me to thinking).

Here we have a poster taking offence to a topic being moved from HS to the Convo, the inference being that Conversation is no place for a sensible and intelligent discussion.

Now while I'm aware of (and very glad of) the fact that the Conversation is a place where we can, if we want to, talk about fennecs, our favourite condiments or why pirates 0wn20r, I'm also glad of the fact that it isn't restricted to that.

Rereading Ganesh's thread about Christian bulletin boards from a couple of years back, I was struck by the fact that we used to have intelligent discussions there ALL THE TIME.

However, since thinking of this thread, "between the thought and the action", as it were, it's started happening again, and it rocks.

So, the original purpose of this thread was partially to moan, but that's thankfully no longer necessary. So I'll open it up a bit- as the forum with the highest traffic, the Conversation is also the forum whose purpose and usage we question the least often. It's kind of taken for granted. Don't get me wrong- as you all no doubt have noticed, I LOVE the silly shit. But I don't think the Conversation is restricted to that, and it worries me that a lot of people seem to think it is, which means a lot of topics not, say, "theory" enough for the Head Shop, but seemingly too "serious" for Convo, probably don't get posted.

What does everyone else think? Is a move to Conversation a relegation or an opportunity? What do we want the Convo to be? (I think I've made my position clear on that one- I'd say about fifty-fifty robots'n'badgers/actual thinky stuff).

(And everyone who's started the decent discussions in Conversation recently, I fucking love you all).

23:44 / 01.03.06

I truly hope for conversations about feminism within badger setts.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

00:14 / 02.03.06

With Venn diagrams.

00:22 / 02.03.06

Have you any idea how tempting that is?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

02:16 / 02.03.06

DO IT! DO IT NOW!!!

*

02:48 / 02.03.06

So maybe we should leave the r*pe thread there as well? We've been talking about moving it to headshop, I think on the grounds that it might cause discomfort.

03:53 / 02.03.06

If the rape thread gets moved to HeadShop, I think Saltation would be upset. I'm not a mod, but I think you should leave it there. And if it causes discomfort, that's unfortunate. It's disturbing material, but it needs to be discussed. Without cutting any corners.

04:05 / 02.03.06

Plus, it might catch the attention of posters who might not read HeadShop posts. And I think there's stuff in there everybody should see.

*

04:39 / 02.03.06

Chad's point is a pretty good one. (I'm not inclined to be overly worried about Saltation being upset about something which has nothing to do with zir, but I'll take that on board as well.)

Okay, mods, up to you... do what ye will with the move requests.

ONLY NICE THINGS

08:48 / 02.03.06

Well, looks like it's still there.

Theoretically, the Head Shop is designed both to house a certain amount of subject matter (broadly, philosophy, social science, gender and sexuality - things which do not have a clear basis in current events and science), but also a certain kind of approach, which is harder to quantify. To exemplify, the Dead Megatron Winkie Show would probably have been squelched or moved out to another thread earlier in Head Shop.

OTOH, the Head Shop has been really quite slow of late, and it may be advisable to "repot" topics from the convo into it where they are going great guns.

Alternatively, is there an argument for getting rid of either the spectacle fora (and just having everything in the Conversation) or the higher expectations of topicality and reference material within those fora?

Our Lady Has Left the Building

09:31 / 02.03.06

As a (initially only a) Conversation Mod I've always been against the Conversation being used as a Waste-Paper Bin forum, so in that sense I'm quite glad to have serious threads instead. However, these threads really should be in the Head Shop or the Switchboard, so if people aren't posting there this is actually a serious problem.

10:20 / 02.03.06

I think repotting Conversation threads that have taken root could be a good approach to the seemingly alternate problems of too much muck in the Convo and not enough brass in the Revolution.
For example, the Digital Manipulation thread flourished in the Conversation because it had an unfocussed opening post that required a bit of a hammering with blunt instruments to take shape. Now that it’s been roughed out and some clued-up posters have begun to hone the edge, it might well benefit from further tooling with the precision machinery in the Head Shop.
It might have gone as far as it can go in the Conversation (it’s sinking, certainly), but it could either be moved wholesale for fine tuning, or cuttings could be taken and used to propagate companions thread in the Head Shop (and/or the Lab, Switchboard, whatever) to deal with some of the specific issues that have been brought up (body-image, standards of beauty, presentation vs. representation, aesthetic as propaganda etc).

I don’t mind see the Conversation being used as a proving ground. I don’t even mind it being a bit of a junk yard, as long as there’s a bit of Scrapheap Challenge going on.

10:21 / 02.03.06

What I can’t abide is mixed metaphors.

11:24 / 02.03.06

It deliberately had an unfocussed first post so that everyone felt they could talk about it.

11:47 / 02.03.06

Yeah yeah, that wasn't a criticism, that was my point. That's one way the Conversation works really well.

13:32 / 02.03.06

This post from a year or so ago from Our Lady has been itching me again to build a reference station on Barbelith. Every once in a while, I jump all over Morrison's works with vMeme theories, and often kill an otherwise strong discourse. I've stayed out of HeadShop because, well, best explained here. I want to contribute, but I realize I'm not the most schooled or verbose.

These 101 threads may offer a different opportunity to better explain the ideas with visual aids and such in a more candid and lighter atmosphere. With so many newbs either "crossing abysses" and becoming "enlightened", or frustrated at a world moving faster than they, it may be helpful to see a format that describes a series of enlightening challenges. So when someone acts out, we can say something other, and potentially more helpful than "shut up and adapt".

Plus there's also talking about Morrison's use of exploring the value meme structures in his work, and the theoretical models that can't be studied in cultures, but are imagined in his most current works.

Shall I begin a vMeme 101 thread in Conversation or HeadShop?

01:05 / 03.03.06

What's a vMeme?

02:07 / 03.03.06

They're like sets of stereotypical memes that coincide with cultural and personal value structures. Only they're mapped along an evolutionary sequence.

I'll begin a vMeme 101 in HeadShop this weekend. It's theory, and belongs there.

07:39 / 03.03.06

I'm all for thought-provoking, insicive threads in the conversation... I'm just worried that the conversation is the first thing to be trimmed for bandwith - is the conversation routinely culled? Is there away for nominating particularly interesting threads for a reprieve from being dumped?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

08:14 / 03.03.06

I'd guess not, as there are threads going back about five years still there, but I don't really know.

Although didn't Tom say he had to keep copies anyway for legal reasons, and that culling threads wasn't really needed for bandwidth reasons.

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:33 / 03.03.06

Conversation threads are in theory deleted after a month, but in practice aren't. However, as far as I know management reserves the right to etc.

Another issue with Conversation as a place for "serious" discussion is that there's no mechanism to keep it serious. Generally, a good discussion, with a good first post and follow-up, will attract a good standard of contribution, whereas a bad first post will often not (take a look at "True Knowledge" in the Head Shop as an example). However, there are people who may simply not want to read a thread before posting, or who are not really equipped to judge whether what they are saying is appropriate in tone or content. In Conversation there is less of an expectation that that will be moderated out...

20:38 / 03.03.06

What about if they get started in Conversation but then someone shifts them over to another forum if they become worthwhile?

I'm thinking of things like the feminism101 and the sexual coercion threads.

21:14 / 03.03.06

It's good to see serious discussion in the Conversation but there's going to be thread rotting and nonsense occurring in any thread there. The forum's advertised as such.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

21:14 / 03.03.06

I kind of like the idea of Conversation as a place to plant stuff (like the image manipulation thread) and then see in which direction, if any, it grows... the image manipulation thread could have been a Head Shop, AFD or Switchboard thread, but it was cool that it started as none (or, indeed, any) of those.

When I first joined the impression I got (which could well have been wrong) was exactly that- threads that COULD fit anywhere could start in the Convo, and then get shifted to where they were most appropriate a few posts in, if that was felt necessary. It seems that we currently have a situation in which the Conversation is a place threads are moved TO, rather than FROM. I'm not so sure that's a good thing.

The last week has seen a wonderful upturn in the quality of Conversation threads... some of which, it looks like, will either be moved to, or will (or have) spark(ed) discussion in the more "serious" fora. I really hope this isn't just a phase.

I still reserve the right to argue about badgers, though.