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Defining Coercion: This really belongs in the Sex&Body forum

 
  

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15:48 / 01.03.06
It's been asked that discussions which are related to rape, and only tangentially related to feminism on barbelith, be moved to a separate thread. So I'd like to explore here some of the legal and extra-legal definitions of rape.

One important question I'd like to start with:

Can one unknowingly commit rape?

It seems to me that yes, one can commit rape without being aware that's what's happening. I have heard some of my fellow men say that if they are having sex and their partner becomes uncomfortable and decides to stop, but for whatever reason they don't hear him or her say no, then it can't be rape because they didn't know they were being asked to stop and thought the sex was consensual. I'll respond to this in a minute, but what do people think about that?
 
 
iconoplast
16:01 / 01.03.06
Legally? Yes. Statutory Rape does not depend on whether or not you knew you were having sex with a minor.

It's a bit like 'can you unknowingly commit murder?' the answer is yes, in a sense, but it's often called Manslaughter (at least in the US).

I think the inclusion of premeditation into the definition of rape is counterproductive, unless we're looking at the crime, rather than the action. Which we're not.

I think that in rape, as in namy other situations where one party's actions are weighed by how they affect another party, intent is almost irrelevant when compared to how the action is experienced by the affected.
 
 
*
16:31 / 01.03.06
I agree with that— primarily because I think placing the burden on the person who is plainly feeling already uncomfortable and disempowered to somehow "make" the other person hear his or her needs is a problem. Particularly when in sexual situations, strong emotion can be overwhelming and can make it very hard to say what you mean in a way that is receivable by the other party. In my experience, anyway.

If people agree that's the case, then what does it say about the responsibility of all parties engaged in sex? Do we need to be more proactive, in general, about checking in with our partners so that we know their needs are being met? How do we do that?

I've heard people recommend "ask at every step": "May I kiss you? May I take off your shirt?" etc. Which could be both effective and quite sexy, I think, if done right. But, on the other hand, you can still disempower someone this way. "May I touch your ass? Please? How about now? Okay, now?"

When I've had sex with people who considered me their equal, and where we were both similarly concerned about meeting each others' needs, I found that we took turns asking each other what we wanted, and responded to non-verbal signals in a way which didn't happen in other situations I'd been in. It made me feel silly, sometimes, but the silliness was another good part of sex.

In other situations I've been in, where consent was assumed, I felt pretty upset by it, but for whatever reason I didn't voice my feelings. Sometimes, I suspect, this comes from feeling like there are certain standards to live up to— "I'm a man, I should WANT this" or "I'm his girlfriend, I'm SUPPOSED to give him sex" (apropos to feminism thread— I'm noticing the difference between those two hypotheticals). Does that make it rape? I genuinely don't know; it seems like a hard-line stance to me. I think that it has a similar effect, one that is different in degree and not in kind— but since I've never experienced anything like a RapeAsDefinedByLaw, I can't make the comparison.
 
 
Sekhmet
17:47 / 01.03.06
Are we considering statutory rape? That's an odd area, legally and morally, because even in cases where both parties have given consent, it's considered rape - presumably it's assumed that the minor in the case may not have truly understood what they were doing, and/or that a non-minor participant may have abused their position of relative power/authority over the minor.

However, say the age of consent is considered to be 17. If a 17-year old has sex with a 16-year old, the 17-year old can be charged with statutory rape. This is true even if the 17-year-old's birthday was the day before the act and the 16-year-old's is the day after. Such is law. But doesn't that seem odd?

Consider also that the "age of consent" varies wildly in different areas, and also that it's waived if the minor is married to their partner.

So is statutory rape always Rape?
 
 
alas
20:09 / 01.03.06
There's an essay by Mary Gaitskill from about 10 years ago, that I find pretty unsettling yet thought-provoking on this subject. Here's the complex introductory anecdote of an ambiguous sexual encounter she had at age 16, which might be seen as below the age of consetn, but she does not identify the age of the man in question and does not identify this as 'statutory.' I urge you to read it very carefully, because, as I say, it's complex; and it's not graphic, but it is emotionally intense. (Once again, if you want the whole essay, barrage me with PMs):

ON NOT BEING A VICTIM:
Sex, rape, and the trouble with following rules

In the early 1970s, I had an experience that could be described as acquaintance rape. Actually, I have had two or three such experiences, but this one most dramatically fits the profile. I was sixteen and staying in the apartment of a slightly older girl I'd just met in a seedy community center in Detroit. I'd been in her apartment for a few days when an older guy she knew came over and asked us if we wanted to drop some acid. In those years, doing acid with complete strangers was consistent with my idea of a possible good time, so I said yes. When I started peaking, my hostess decided she had to go see her boyfriend, and there I was, alone with this guy, who, suddenly, was in my face.

He seemed to be coming on to me, but I wasn't sure. My perception was quite loopy, and on top of that he was black and urban-poor, which meant that I, being very inexperienced and suburban-white, did not know how to read him the way I might have read another white kid. I tried to distract him with conversation, but it was hard, considering that I was having trouble with logical sentences, let alone repartee. During one long silence, I asked him what he was thinking. Avoiding my eyes, he answered, "That if I wasn't such a nice guy you could really be getting screwed." The remark sounded to me like a threat, albeit a low-key one. But instead of asking him to explain himself or to leave, I changed the subject. Some moments later, when he put his hand on my leg, I let myself be drawn into sex because I could not face the idea that if I said no, things might get ugly. I don't think he had any idea how unwilling I was--the cultural unfamiliarity cut both ways--and I suppose he may have thought that all white girls just kind of lie there and don't do or say much. My bad time was made worse by his extreme gentleness; he was obviously trying very hard to please me, which, for reasons I didn't understand, broke my heart. Even as inexperienced as I was, I sensed that in his own way he intended a romantic encounter.

For some time afterward I described this event as "the time I was raped." I knew when I said it that the statement wasn't quite accurate, that I hadn't, after all, said no. Yet it felt accurate to me. In spite of my ambiguous, even empathic feelings for my unchosen partner, unwanted sex on acid is a nightmare, and I did feel violated by the experience. At times I even flat-out lied about what had happened, grossly exaggerating the violence and the threat--not out of shame or guilt, but because the pumped-up version was more congruent with my feelings of violation than the confusing facts. Every now and then, in the middle of telling an exaggerated version of the story, I would remember the actual man and internally pause, uncertain of how the memory squared with what I was saying or where my sense of violation was coming from--and then I would continue with my story. I am ashamed to admit this, both because it is embarrassing to me and because I am afraid the admission could be taken as evidence that women lie "to get revenge." I want to stress that I would not have lied that way in court or in any other context that might have had practical consequences; it didn't even occur to me to take my case to court. My lies were told not for revenge but in service of what I felt to be the metaphorical truth.

I remember my experience in Detroit, including its aftermath, every time I hear or read yet another discussion of what constitutes "date rape." I remember it when yet another critic castigates "victimism" and complains that everyone imagines himself or herself to be a victim and that no one accepts responsibility anymore. I could imagine telling my story as a verification that rape occurs by subtle threat as well as by overt force. I could also imagine telling it as if I were one of those crybabies who want to feel like victims. Both stories would be true and not true. The complete truth is more complicated than most of the intellectuals who have written scolding essays on victimism seem willing to accept. I didn't understand my own story fully until I described it to an older woman many years later, as a proof of the unreliability of feelings. "Oh, I think your feelings were reliable," she returned. "It sounds like you were raped. It sounds like you raped yourself." I immediately knew that what she said was true, that in failing even to try to speak up for myself, I had, in a sense, raped myself.

I don't say this in a tone of self-recrimination. I was in a difficult situation: I was very young, and he was aggressive. But my inability to speak for myself--to stand up for myself--had little to do with those facts. I was unable to stand up for myself because I had never been taught how.


Thoughts?
 
 
Sekhmet
20:41 / 01.03.06
That hits so close to home that I'm actually a bit out of breath. I'm going to have to think about it before I can respond thoughtfully.

She seems to have hit on something there that most people don't seem to understand - that even without verbal refusal or physical resistance - even if the partner seems willing - that doesn't necessarily mean that a violation hasn't occurred. Particularly in cases of so-called "date rape" or statutory rape, the participants' perceptions of what is actually happening may be wildly at odds with each other.
 
 
Olulabelle
22:33 / 01.03.06
Oh, the things Barbelith makes you think about.

Particularly in cases of so-called "date rape" or statutory rape, the participants' perceptions of what is actually happening may be wildly at odds with each other.

I think this is very important, the 'at odds with each other' bit. I have had sexual relations with people where my perception of what is happening is 'at odds' with the other person, but I wouldn't define that as rape. I would define that as 'me not saying.' 'Me not saying' is my responsibility, especially if I am in a sexual encounter with someone to which, prior to the feeling of not wanting to be there, I had given consent.

Still speaking from the 'me' perspective, just because it is easier, the unwillingness to call a halt to something that is no longer wanted is problematic for me internally, but I don't think it can be blamed on a sexual partner, specifically when in a situation where consent had previously been given.

I understand the theory aspect of unwilling sex constituting rape, but I don't subscribe to it. The way I feel is that each individual is responsible for articulating how he or she is feeling within a sexual act and if a person chooses not to articulate that the attention is no longer wanted, then the problem needs to be addressed personally.

Obviously the situation quoted by Alas is not the same since consent was never given, just not denied.

Within consensual sex I believe that 'no means no' even when the answer has been yes two minutes ago and even when the sexual partner is longstanding. If you say no, you have the right to expect your partner to stop. If they don't then that is rape. If you don't say no, you can't expect your partner to somehow 'read' you.

Obviously none of this applies to non-consensual sex.
 
 
Dead Megatron
23:36 / 01.03.06
Here's a little story from a male perspective.

There was this one time that I went on a date with a woman who already had sex with my older brother in the past. She was the one who took the initiative to ask me out, by the way. I went for it, but all the time all had the feeling she wanted to start a long meaningful relationship with me for some reason (we didn't know each other all that well), while I, I admit,was out for a "good time".

Well, after two dates, one joint, and lots of conversation, we ended up in a motel. She got naked, I got in my underwear. The next hour was basically me going down on her until she had an orgasm. The moment she had it, though, she started to feel self-conscious about it all (having sex with two brother in less than six months) and wanted to stop.

She told me so. My first reaction was: Say, what? Stop, now? But then she explained why and I, as disapointed as I might've been (she was soooo damn attractive that exact moment) abided by her manifested desires, and we stopped.

In a latter ocasion, we got together again and went all the way. The relationship never took off, though, partly because we live too far apart, partly because I was not in a good moment for serious whatever with whom-ever.

The moral of story? I'm not sure there's one, except maybe that most guys (those who are worthy the air they breath, at least) do respect a woman's wishes, when they are expressed. But they need to be expressed, specially since people (I want to say women, but that'd be sexist) may change their minds too quickly and too subtlety. And we, guys, being the dimwits that we are, sometimes need to be lead pace by pace through such intimate affairs.

Any thoughts? I'm here to learn
 
 
alas
00:34 / 02.03.06
DM, prepare yourself: basically I agree. [Anybody else notice that hell just became a few degrees cooler?]

I do think that, if only for their own protection, men should do their best to pay careful attention to the woman's reactions and body language. Ideally get clear, verbal consent, and, further, to double check on consent if there's any doubt. Obviously, I think this is good to do for other reasons, too--and most people really do find concern for their wellbeing a good thing, and in my experience, not a few people are turned on by it. But I do understand that it can feel damn awkward. Really, I do.

(Drugs and alcohol, pleasureable though they no doubt are, along with good sex, are, alas notorious for making all this super difficult. In many US states, and probably some countries, if the person being physically penetrated by a body part or object is under the influence of either, they cannot be said to have consented, but the person doing the penetrating can still be said to have coerced sex, and can be held accountable for their actions even if they are equally high. [Women can, by the way, rape other people.] This may seem very unfair, but it's also true that if we're both drunk and your wallet is left unattended, and I decide to take it, it's still stealing.)

Making sure there's actual consent rather than just an absence of denial seems really really important if there's any kind of a cultural divide--here the two people were from the same country and there was confusion due to class/race issues along with gender; when different languages and cultures of origin are involved, it can get seriously complicated.

I'm especially interested in this assertion of Gaitskill's: that in failing even to try to speak up for myself, I had, in a sense, raped myself, with the qualifiers that follow. Does that reading work for everyone?

Having posted that passage and read Sekhmet's response, I have decided to add a little clarifying alert about its being not graphic but pretty intense. I like id entity's approach and the carefully worded summary, very much. I wonder, however, if it might be better if this thread were in the quieter space of the headshop?
 
 
Dead Megatron
00:46 / 02.03.06
Women can, by the way, rape other people

Down here in Brazil, the legislation clearly states that "rape" is when a man has forceful intercourse with a woman (i.e. introduction of penis in vagina). Anything else ( introduction of any "foreign object" - incuding any body parts other than the penis - in a vagina, men having forceful intercourse with other men, woman having forceful sex of any kind with men or other women, forceful "anal intercourse" of any kind) is not called "rape", it's called atentado violento ao pudor, or "violent assault on prudity". The punishment is the same, but for some reason, such is the wording of the law

So, women cannot rape, and men cannot be raped

I find it kind of a chauvinist definition of rape
 
 
alas
00:57 / 02.03.06
Actually, that's interesting, DM. It's definitely shaped by a different legal tradition--probably Brazilian law has roots in Civil Law (? I'm guessing). Ohio law is as follows, according to the student services as Ohio University in Athens--

Sexual Battery:
Coercing another person into vaginal, anal, or oral intercourse that the person does not want, or having vaginal, anal, or oral intercourse when the other person's ability to consent is substantially impaired by alcohol or other intoxicants.

Rape:
Using force, or the threat of force, to have vaginal, anal, or oral intercourse using the penis, finger(s), tongue, mouth, or any other object other than the body.
OR
Substantially impairing the judgment or control of another by administering a controlled substance, and then having vaginal, anal, or oral intercourse using body parts or an object other than the body.


"Administering" is a complicated issue, actually....
 
 
alas
01:03 / 02.03.06
Oh, rape and sexual battery are BOTH two forms of sexual assault in Ohio, along with public indecency, voyeurism, sexual imposition, & gross sexual imposition. Here's the page I'm referencing, if you're interested. (I chose this page because it's written very accessibly; I suspect the law itself is not quite so concise/jargon free. Ohio law is gender neutral in language, so far as I am aware. I'm not sure how other states/countries handle these issues)
 
 
*
02:20 / 02.03.06
I wonder, however, if it might be better if this thread were in the quieter space of the headshop?

It can go there. I put it in Conversation to make sure people who were intent on talking about rape in the feminism thread saw it (a maneuver not entirely successful, I think).
 
 
Never or Now!
07:08 / 02.03.06
alas: if we're both drunk and you give me your wallet, is that stealing?

I think placing the burden on the person who is plainly feeling already uncomfortable and disempowered to somehow "make" the other person hear his or her needs is a problem.

But the alternative is to place upon the other person the burden of telepathy. The "ask at every step" advice is good as far as it goes, but I can't imagine it going very far - certainly I wouldn't find it "quite sexy," more bumbling and adolescent.
 
 
Evil Scientist
08:58 / 02.03.06
The "ask at every step" advice is good as far as it goes, but I can't imagine it going very far - certainly I wouldn't find it "quite sexy," more bumbling and adolescent

Whether or it's sexy is irrelevant. Better to be clear on both your intentions and whether or not you have consent than (a) violating another, and (b) committing an act which will haunt you for the rest of your life.

I don't believe that a "mindless passion" excuse (I know that's not what you were talking about Drink Me) would be acceptable. Humans are capable of restraining their impulses long enough to be clear on the situation.

It might break the mood a little bit to get consent first, but once it's done you can break out the feathers, boy scout costume, and silly string and bring the sexy factor right back up.
 
 
Not in the Face
11:52 / 02.03.06
alas: if we're both drunk and you give me your wallet, is that stealing?

Would you give me back my wallet when i ask? And have you been plying me with drink with the intent of getting my wallet?
 
 
alas
11:59 / 02.03.06
And, are you sure I gave you my wallet, or did I just leave my wallet on view, which you took as a "yes, please take me"? Because any person who starts showing her wallet around must want it stolen.

Look, I think you're implying that I'm saying that drunk women never want sex. Au contraire. But when a person is drunk it should not be seen as open season on them. Ideally, they have people who care about them around, but that is not always the case. Legally, you are in a very dangerous position in many states if you fuck someone who is not really able to give willed consent. And I believe that's as it should be.
 
 
Never or Now!
14:04 / 02.03.06
Just to squeeze all the juice out of this "wallet" analogy:

I think that both of you (Not in the Face and alas) are making certain assumptions in order to avoid empathising with the person accused of the crime. Let's say that no, I am a basically decent person and my motive in drinking with you is not to get you in a state where I can steal from you. Similarly I am a reasonably intelligent person, and, seeing this wallet of yours upon the table, I do not pocket it. Let's assume instead, for now, that you offer it and I take it in good faith, and that afterwards we continue socialising. At some point you regret your actions and then the question is, presumably:

Would you give me back my wallet when i ask?

...But what if you don't ask? What if you feel "uncomfortable" and "disempowered" and "burdened" and so do not say a word to me? And what if (where the analogy breaks down altogether) what you've given can't be returned? Would you then think it reasonable firstly to slander me as a thief and yourself as a victim, and secondly to seek criminal charges which could effectively ruin my life?
 
 
elene
14:30 / 02.03.06
I'd like to say something about rape, and I'd rather I didn't.

Discussions about rape always end up here on the edge, with one person violated and the other wondering whether it's love. I think there's quite a bit of that and I know at least two ways it can come about. I also think that this sort of rape exists says more about how we think about sex than it does about either the evil or the incompetence of the protagonists.

It's certainly possible to go ahead and fuck someone who doesn't resist and never notice he doesn't really want to do this, if for you sex is basically an anonymous rubbing together of body parts, a way to get at pleasure quickly. It's possible to be so afraid of someone you decide the best way to handle the situation is to let them fuck you, and, in spite of your supreme competence, afterwards to be completely destroyed.

On the other hand there's any amount of rape done that's not ambiguous. Usually the object of the rapist's lust does say no. Sometimes a she'll try to nut the creep, but if she messes it up and he nuts her instead well ...

I think we can discriminate between the victim saying too little and the rapist doing too much by focusing on the issue of power. One often hears that rape is about power, not sex, and I think that's true. I think that at the moment one partner in sex handles the other as were she subordinate they'd better both be, and know they are in a well regulated consensual dom/sub relationship, because otherwise if it messes the subordinate up, it's rape.

Additionally a lot of guys are involved in a struggle with their own sexual desires as personified by their penis and the person they wish to fuck with it. That's complicated. People don't like being dragged around by there sexual desires, and I don't blame them. I find this sort of third person relationship some people seem to have to their genitals just weird. I might be wrong, or rather out-of-date, but I think it's really easy to wind up an accessory to this fantasy relationship. Then it's easy to get raped, just don't disturb them and they'll get around to you eventually.

Intoxicants not only render the one person more passive and less able to resist, they also make the other more single-minded and, with that, more ruthless, in my opinion. And it's quite possible to be tough enough to have this sort of thing run off you like water off a duck's back, but I'm not sure that's a good thing.
 
 
alas
14:36 / 02.03.06
Would you then think it reasonable firstly to slander me as a thief and yourself as a victim, and secondly to seek criminal charges which could effectively ruin my life?

No, it would not be correct. Yes, I suspect this does happen. Yes, it is horrible when it does. But are you implying that this is the norm?

More often Gaitskill's scenario is, I suspect, more typical, even where the situation is less ambiguous and more clearly date rape: the victim is deeply ashamed by the whole experience and doesn't press charges. Rape is still a highly unreported crime. All I have said, you will see, is that I think the law I'm most familiar with (posted above) is correct on this point. People, men and women, should be aware of their legal position and very very careful about having sex while drunk with people they are not very well acquainted with.

Do you think the law should be framed differently?

Sex is great fun. It's also dangerous. For men and for women. For gays and for straights and bisexuals and group lovers at "sexy parties" (as they say in BLEEDonia). And the pleasure is tied up with the danger. Women have long really had to be aware of this danger and have carried the burden of it. Men are now sharing the burden, and the system is no doubt imperfect for both. Going to trial still is a pretty harsh, unfriendly, and disturbing experience for rape victims, and a rape can still ruin their lives too.

While I am certain there are injustices (a friend of a friend seems to feel he was incarcerated for consensual sex), I'm not yet convinced that men are disproportionately victimized by the current state of affairs, which seems to be your implication. Please correct me, however, if I am misreading you.
 
 
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15:17 / 02.03.06
I'm interested in other gay men's perspective on rape, at the minute, as well.

Living in a house full of queerz of all types as I do, I've noticed that the gay men here, some of them at least, seem to have a much different reaction to the idea of ambiguous rape than do the women. This confused me for awhile; I think the conclusion I've come to is that to the particular individuals I'm thinking about, being bullied, coerced, or manipulated into unwanted sex acts is just a feature of the gay landscape. Is this an isolated phenomenon? Or is this just one of the many varieties of harm that our homophobic society inflicts on most gay men in their youth?
 
 
Not in the Face
15:28 / 02.03.06
What if you feel "uncomfortable" and "disempowered" and "burdened" and so do not say a word to me?

If I felt any of those terms around you and you didn't notice then I think that probably says a lot about our relationship (on the assumption that you failed not notice my feelings and didn't stop the sexual activity) and as an outside observer who saw that, I would identify both parties as likely to have some fault before getting the facts.

Would you then think it reasonable firstly to slander me as a thief and yourself as a victim, and secondly to seek criminal charges which could effectively ruin my life?

I was going to provide a counter to the metaphor but actually I think its quite flawed and harmful to do so because it doesn't address the issue.

Firstly because you have admitted that the wallet analogy has broken down when the thing cannot be returned; at this point we have gone beyond the materialistic (a wallet) and moved to an experience or emotion (innocence, birginity, self-esteem, confidence etc) - therefore you as the taker are not a thief in this context (except in a literary sense of the word). There is no point therefore in asking would you return it if I asked - it has already been taken permanently. Also I would note that if took your wallet I would offer it back at a crucial time, not continue to hold onto it.

Pulling your argument back to the actual topic - is it reasonable for a person who had reservations about the sexual activity but did not express them to then complain and seek criminal charges against the partner? That obviously depends on the specific situation but while we can ruminate on what those variables might be, the fact is that the overwhelming amount of sexual coercion is men on women. It is therefore not surprising that in taking the matter seriously authorities have been predisposed, where there have been complaints of sexual coercion that were not clear rape, to assume that the man was at fault.

Is that fair or reasonable? I doubt it in the individual sense but I would say that the fault lies not with women for not speaking up (which is after all one of the aims of coercion) but with men for creating a situation where it is readily believable that this situation can occur. The basically decent person drink me refers to is in my mind, not being caught out by women but by his fellow man.

This I think goes back to alas' point that men need to be careful but the threat is as much (more than?) from other men as it from an unhappy partner
 
 
*
15:30 / 02.03.06
(A perfect example, I suppose, of what we are getting at in this thread, incidentally— I don't have all the cultural referents for understanding my own community.)
 
 
alas
15:35 / 02.03.06
I think we can discriminate between the victim saying too little and the rapist doing too much by focusing on the issue of power. One often hears that rape is about power, not sex, and I think that's true. I think that at the moment one partner in sex handles the other as were she subordinate they'd better both be, and know they are in a well regulated consensual dom/sub relationship, because otherwise if it messes the subordinate up, it's rape.

Well put, elene. Another instance of how much the world has to learn from groups that are often viewed as "marginal," if not downright "deviant." I think what I'm hearing you say is that dom/sub is taken as so "normal" for male/female relationships, and it's that normality that's the problem. Intentional d/s relationships work because they are regulated by carefully constructed conventions that must be agreed upon in advance, because everyone knows that they are in dangerous territory. The privilege of male dominance taken as a norm thus leaves straight men vulnerable to seemingly being "blindsided" by experiences of sexual assault. Is that accurate?
 
 
Sekhmet
17:20 / 02.03.06
That's a good way of articulating something that I've been very confused about for years.

Look, okay, this may be TMI for some of you, but. My first sexual experiences occurred at age 16 with a man who was 24 - eight years my elder - and who was also in a position of authority over me at school. I was in a relationship with him for about five months, if you can call serial screwing in a carseat a "relationship".

And I never really liked him, and I never really liked what he did to me, but I was young and very lonely and he seemed to like me, so I did it anyway. When I tried to say no (which I tried a few times) he would manipulate and guilt-trip me into doing it. I had low self-esteem and very poor resistance to that sort of thing.

Of course it was statutory rape, so legally, I'd have had recourse. But I was never really able to think of it as rape, because he never hurt me or hit me or held me down, and I never screamed or tried to fight him off. I never really understood why I felt so violated and dirty and angry about it, in addition to being desperately glad that someone - anyone - wanted to spend time with me and be with me in that way. (Loneliness is so utterly spirit-crushing for a teenager, you know?)

But I've spent the rest of my life trying to sort myself out. Early sexual experiences tend to imprint on your relationship patterns, and it's taken me over a decade of work to get to something resembling a healthy state.

Now, for the record, I thought at the time that he was a nice guy and that he really liked me, but after the fact found out that the guy was a creep and a sexual predator. He did the same thing to about five other girls I know of, and finally got arrested a couple of years later when he had moved down to 11 and 12-year olds.

But say he really was a nice guy, and he didn't realize how uncomfortable I was. Was it not rape because he didn't know, or was it rape because of how it made me feel?
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
17:27 / 02.03.06
But say he really was a nice guy, and he didn't realize how uncomfortable I was. Was it not rape because he didn't know, or was it rape because of how it made me feel?

Yes to both and no to both.

In a legal sense it would yes/no and in a non-legal but definitional sense it would be no/yes.
 
 
Sekhmet
17:32 / 02.03.06
So the answers in legal and non-legal terms are in direct opposition to each other? Does that seem enormously problematic to anyone else?
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
17:38 / 02.03.06
So the answers in legal and non-legal terms are in direct opposition to each other? Does that seem enormously problematic to anyone else?

That is only really by incidence rather than by design and is a meritocratic determination. It may be problematic but would be more so were the law oblige a man, or indeed any rapist, to pursue to an absolute of consent and understand perfectly what that absolute allows in practice.
 
 
HCE
17:47 / 02.03.06
One problem I'm seeing here is that there seems to be a lot of concern about whether subtler forms of coercion should be given the same name as the kind of thing where somebody puts a gun to your head.

My problem with analogies like drink me's is that they seem to me to seek to frame the discussion in terms of finding a failsafe: if I can fit my behavior into pattern X, then I am safe from accusations of rape. It would probably be more productive to frame the discussion in terms of how to listen better, how to recognize subtly coercive behavior of one's own as well as that of others (which goes back to Gaitskill's observation).

Hopefully this conversation will not be about developing a set of rules which if followed will ensure that you never have to think.
 
 
Chiropteran
18:13 / 02.03.06
My problem with analogies like drink me's is that they seem to me to seek to frame the discussion in terms of finding a failsafe: if I can fit my behavior into pattern X, then I am safe from accusations of rape.... Hopefully this conversation will not be about developing a set of rules which if followed will ensure that you never have to think.

I'll second that. In my experience with IRL discussions of rape, that very thing has often arisen as the primary concern of one or more vocal male participants, and once mentioned has tended to dominate the remainder of the discussion (usually with increasingly convoluted hypotheticals and analogies). It really seems like missing the point in a big way: like what is most important is not actually not raping someone but rather not being accused of rape. "How can this not be My Fault," essentially, instead of "how can this not happen in the first place?"

(I'm not trying to imply anything about Drink Me or anyone else's intent or priorities, btw, but I do think that these kinds of analogies, i.e. the wallet, can have the unintended effect of diverting the discussion in an, arguably, less productive direction.)
 
 
alas
18:51 / 02.03.06
First, sorry about the wallet analogy: I intended it originally only to not get sidetracked by the argument "if we're both drunk, how come...", to remind people that alcohol doesn't absolve people of other crimes. But it didn't work, and was very limited in its usefulness.

Now, to Sekhmet--wow, that's a pretty hard situation you're describing. It seems entirely reasonable that such an experience would take 10-12 years to work through. (I had a very ambiguous experience when I was 20 and it took me...well, it's been 19 years now...) I can certainly see why you felt resonance from Gaitskill's article.

Her article goes on to suggest that, in her experience, girls like herself (and the ones I see in college today) are typically not trained to say what they want and to work out how to think about themselves in relation to complexities of life (and there's I suppose a question about whether developmentally that's really possible on a large scale). Instead, they're given pretty stark sets of rules from their parents (in her case, 1960s/70s: good girls say no) and their peers/media (sex is great! there's something wrong with you if you don't want it). They really are trained to follow rules, and to actually ignore whatever's going on in their heads, their emotional life.

This does no one any favors and sets up a virtual recipe for, among other things, date rape, is her claim. And, more likely, scenarios like hers that lack a clear name but are especially disturbing in some ways because one's own agency is so muddled. (She explains that she was stranger-raped a few years later and found she recovered much quicker from it.)

This is where she attacks the anti-feminist backlash argument that dismisses all date rape claims as "whining" and "victimizing," even as she is critical of some schools of feminism that would also seem to try to create simple rules governing all sexual behavior.

I would urge everyone to read it, because I think it's a deeply provocative essay that speaks carefully to both sides of these issues, especially to fred's point that Hopefully this conversation will not be about developing a set of rules which if followed will ensure that you never have to think. I heartily second that point, and your whole post, really, together with Lepidopteran's.

I would only add to Gaitskill's argument a kind of emphasis that most middle class women are not only not trained to speak up for themselves, they are actively trained to be pleasing and cooperative, especially to older men, and to value the attention of older men above almost any other kind of attention. And this behavior can really be exacerbated by sexual abuse in childhood. So I wouldn't say that Gaitskill raped herself, or that you did, at any level. I'd say that the ghosts of patriarchy, gendered modes of childrearing and current gender norms create a situation where this is almsot a logical outcome. (Which is pretty much her point, I think, really).

And the law has not been set up to redress such vast inequities: it deals with one situation after another. Which is how I understand the disconnect that the answers in legal and non-legal terms are in direct opposition to each other.

But it does mean that while, yes, it would be great if all women were as clear about needing to stop as the woman DM described, the reality is that we're not there yet, and 16-20 year old women are REALLY unlikely to be at that place. So where do we go from there?

Now, as to this SK--

It may be problematic but would be more so were the law oblige a man, or indeed any rapist, to pursue to an absolute of consent and understand perfectly what that absolute allows in practice.

Huh? The legalistic language does smell a little, to me, of the issue fred, e. & lepidopteran are raising, I gotta say. Is that fair?
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
18:57 / 02.03.06
Huh? The legalistic language does smell a little, to me, of the issue fred, e. & lepidopteran are raising, I gotta say. Is that fair?

This is the law, what has fair got to do with it?

The law doesn't have to be fair, it has to be prosecutable.
 
 
alas
19:17 / 02.03.06
SK--I probably could be more clear: Huh?="I didn't quite understand your point, could you unpack?"

Second, when I said "is that fair?"=Your reaction to both me and to Sekhmet still strikes me as falling into the trap that fred/Lepidoptran are raising: your approach to her story (and not the law) seems to be seeking a simple set of rules. "Is that a fair critique of your postings?" was my question, because I accept that your reaction may be more complex than I'm giving it credit for or than what I'm seeing.
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
19:39 / 02.03.06
My approach wasn't to the story as much as it was to the hypothetical situation that was posited and quoted. As I thought I had clearly stated the response to the questions depend very much on the position from which you are observing them.

The fact that there is meritocratic division of opinion dictates that a simple set of rules cannot be applied and with a situation as complex as this the pursuit of such would be foolish and destined for failure. The law on the other hand, as something to be determined by a jury of peers, must have a simple set of rules in order to be viable in society (don't confuse complex with extensive, not the same).

I was surprised by the attempt to reconcile legal with definitional (use of non-legal was careless on my part, Sek possibly should have focused on the caveating), it doesn't seem like it could prove to be that valuable.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
20:08 / 02.03.06
I'm interested in other gay men's perspective on rape, at the minute, as well.

Living in a house full of queerz of all types as I do, I've noticed that the gay men here, some of them at least, seem to have a much different reaction to the idea of ambiguous rape than do the women. This confused me for awhile; I think the conclusion I've come to is that to the particular individuals I'm thinking about, being bullied, coerced, or manipulated into unwanted sex acts is just a feature of the gay landscape. Is this an isolated phenomenon? Or is this just one of the many varieties of harm that our homophobic society inflicts on most gay men in their youth?


I'm a bisexual man (and wannabe MTF). I would say that there is more awareness of the many different issues surrounding rape among queer (in the very broadest sense of the word) people than in straight (again in the broadest sense) people. I'd suggest that that is possibly partly due to sex, and matters surrounding sex, being a defining attribute of "queer" in a way they are not to "straight".

Here are two personal examples of ambiguous consent.

My first experience of full sex was verging on rape, I suppose. Frustrated with virginity I went out to a bar (I later found out it was the very worst place I could possibly have chosen), was bought a lot of drink by someone, and ended up semi-coherent being screwed (sans protection, sans preparation). I said no when it started to hurt enough to get through the alcohol, and was ignored. Ho-hum. I went back to see the guy a few times, which doesn't make an awful lot of sense to me when I reflect on it.

A more disturbing experience, to me at least, was, some time later, waking up one morning and being told by my then girlfriend that I'd had sex with her, without asking and in an unthinking manner, while drunk the night before. I wouldn't call it rape - she could beat me up sober, never mind drunk - but the thought that I could be like that really hit me.
 
  

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