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Should Religious Education be taught in schools?

 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:05 / 23.02.06
Over the last few days I've been following this discussion on the BBC news site and the Intelligent Design and Evolution. How do you decide? thread in Laboratory and I think this is a question that naturally arises from them.

Religious Education was always one of my favourite lessons at school, so much so that I took an AS level in it (16-18 year olds for those of you in other countries). I wasn't brought up in a religious household so my education on the details relied on schooling, through my peers and my formal education. I think that it should be taught as a compulsory subject from the age of 11 to 16 in British schools but I also think the subject needs to cover a broader spectrum, in far more detail, starting with monotheistic religions and their specific structures and beliefs and moving on to other religions including Voodoo.

In my recollection the subject seems very limited, focusing on close study books of the bible for instance when a broader view of the parts of faith, perhaps comparison of holy texts rather than a close study of one would be a better approach.

What do other people think? Should RE even be taught? How should it be taught?
 
 
Wanderer
21:33 / 23.02.06
I would support both compulsory religion and philosophy classes for at least two years of secondary education. It seems to me like a religion class would be helpful to students of a particular religious persuasion in that it might shake their world a bit, and also help them to be more tolerant, as well as putting some views in perspective/proper historical context. The same is probably true of committed athiests. I would probably do one unit for each of 4 or 5 major religious traditions (prob. Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, judaism) detailing the "official" version, according to each religion, of that religion's history, followed by a more nuanced history of the beliefs/histories of major religious sects within each tradition. The final (6th) unit would probably be a brief exploration of non-major (major here designated by population) traditions, maybe do this one by community so as to explore a particular group which may be around one (I grew up around a lot of Mormons, towns with a large vodou or Santeria community could do a unit on Santeria, etc.) This would help broaden religious tolerance on a more concrete level, as well as stepping outside the religion/cult dichotomy which many "major" religions tend to apply erroneously/ oversimplistically. The term would be punctuated by debates over general issues, such as free will, nature of the soul, etc. which are doctrinal disputes in a number of religions and would spark critical thought without sectarian conflict in a given classroom.

It also seems to me like this is pretty clearly constitutional; the religion debate (at least in the states) as i've seen it is basically whether ID should be taught in science class, not whether it should be taught at all.
 
 
Dead Megatron
21:33 / 23.02.06
Well, in a multi-cultural nation (as is most of them here in the "West" nowadays) I'd frown upon it in the public school system, but not in private ones. I studied in a Catholic (Benedictine, actually - they must be happy with the new Pope, I reckon) school myself. It was mostly just reading of the Bible to the kids by old hungarian priests (nothing against Hungary, old people or priests per se, of course), and it didn't interfered in any other course, like History, Physics, or Biology. It's cool if it stays contained.

I'd have prefered a "comparative" religous education, though
 
 
Olulabelle
22:05 / 23.02.06
I absolutely agree that faith schools should teach the children about religions other than the one practiced in the school as the BBC article suggests but I think this should apply to non faith based schools too. I don't know how far this should extend in terms of education, but studying the main faiths, followed by overviews of the less widely practiced faiths would be a start. I think that it's vital children are taught about religion, regardless of whether a person is a practicing anything it can only help with understanding the world one is in.

I was given a basic overview of the main religions in my R.E. lessons at school, but it focussed mainly on Christianity and I think I suffered for this. What I know about religions other than Christianity is mainly self-taught.

At school in Somerset my 8 year old son was taught only Christianity, which I found very frustrating since the school wasn't a faith based school, but now he's at school in Birmingham he has a much wider religious education. This of course has a great deal to do with the fact that there are children practicing many different faiths at his new school; children have time off for Eid and Divali if they want and the whole school just celebrated Chinese New Year. It's almost that rather than 'studying' the different faiths, all the children interact with people of different faiths each and everyday. Obviously he is lucky in that the school he goes to has children whose parents are from 16 different countries and within the school there are children practicing nearly as many religions. Schools in predominantly single faith areas don't have such an excellent way to learn.

I feel much more comfortable with this since his religious education is now very varied but it worries me that his old school did not think it relevant to teach the children about different religions just because there were no children practicing that religion in the school.

Sometimes it feels to me that intolerance about religion stems from a lack of knowledge rather than any deep rooted prejudice. I don't believe everything I see on TV but I watched Morgan Spurlock's 30 days 'Muslims and Americans' and I think that whatever you think about the process of making the programme, the devout Christian David Stacey who went to stay with a Muslim family and lived as a practicing Muslim for 30 days did become more aware of the prejudices he had previously held because of taking part. Prior to doing so when asked what he thought of when he thought of the word "Muslim, he responded, "I picture men with an AK47, and women with a sheet over their heads". He certainly didn't think that when he left.

(Note: I thought about this quite a lot after seeing it and read a lot about the programme to see how 'real' the documentary actually was. According to Debbie Schlussel, who seems to be a fairly biased person herself, documentary producers told her that "Morgan wants the show to demonstrate to America that we are Islamophobic and that 9/11's biggest victims are Muslims. The rest of the article is in the Schlussel link. I add that just to show I'm not blindly believing the programme.)
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:02 / 24.02.06
I think various religions from the local community should come in to teach in religous education classes, i am not sure i am happy with it being only an academic subject.

Perhaps people should attend festivals, visit temples etc and generally learn from interaction with a variety of religous and spiritual cultures.

Perhaps an R.E teachers remit should be to arrange two years of intensive religous cultural experiences for people.

Some recording and organising of experiences by people in the form of written journals, but mainly letting the various religous cultures speak for themselves, with the R.E teacher as more a guide and guardian to the people learning.
 
 
BlueMeanie
14:55 / 24.02.06
I personally think that a philosophy/thinking course, with some parts on religion, would be a better idea.

One of the problems with teaching about RE, at least when I was a kid, was that the teacher didn't really know what they were on about when talking about other religions that they didn't follow. They may also have misunderstandings and false preconceptions about the beliefs that they are teaching about. A case in point was a freind's wife who had to teach RE, and had the impression that "Buddhists were all lazy and selfish since they just sat and meditated".

I think that getting various community leaders, such as imams, priests, monks etc in to explain would be far better since they can give the kids a proper understanding of what being a member of a religion is actually all like.
 
 
grant
15:32 / 24.02.06
As I become older and more reactionary, I'm beginning to suspect that by not teaching about religion, the public (tax-supported) school system is actually making a religious statement: that it's not worth teaching. Which I don't think is true at all, and might be the reason why we're seeing an upswing in general fundamentalism all around.

I had a couple pretty boring religion classes in my Catholic school, but a great comparitive religion class that helped ignite some of my lifelong interests. Or at least, helped them along. I'm pretty sure that's the first place I learned what Buddhism actually was, rather than just a catchphrase for "Asian wisdom."

I also think it's nearly impossible to understand politics or history without knowing something about the ways religious experience is expressed.
 
 
Wanderer
15:35 / 24.02.06
I totally agree with the visiting of temples, actual interaction with the religion, etc. It seems like this would be good even for non-faith based schools, as long as multiple religions are discussed.

V. a philosophy course-It seems like while, for most of history, philosophy has been conducted at least partially under the auspices of one religion or another, there are two separate skills at work. Religion is just cultural awareness; philosophy involves much finer critical thinking skills. It seems to me that if you tried to integrate the two, you would just end up advocating atheism, as no religion works in a context of "logic". I would teach a religion course and a basic argument/philosophy course (probably with emphasis on the argument-once people have the tools to work through philosophy, they can better access it on their own.) Any critical application to religion would be on the student's own time-as much as im philosophically comfortable with it, im not sure any educational system would withstand forcing everyone to demonstrate the logical invalidity of their own cosmological beliefs; thats something you should only do if you are inclined to do so yourself, far as im concerned.
 
 
Wanderer
15:40 / 24.02.06
Oh, and grant, I'm definitely with you on the idea that you make a statement about religion by not teaching it. I'm reading a bunch of religious freedom stuff for my US Constitutional law class right now, and that issue has been on my mind alot lately because of that, particularly with respect to religious exemptions for drug laws and the like.
 
 
c0nstant
16:18 / 24.02.06
The problem I found with RE when I was at school (a whole 7/8 years ago!) is that the majority of the teachers had massive biases.

My RE teacher was a particularly fervant newborn christian, and often, unconciously I think (although that might be giving her far too much credit), spoke of other religions in rather demeaning and condescending ways. It's difficult to find an RE teacher who ISN'T of one faith (75% of our teachers were christian, and this definitely affected the way that lessons were taught) or another and this naturally leads to biases in the education system.

However, I do think that RE is a very important part of any childs education. As long as it covers a broad spectrum of religions and religious thought, after all faith is the central pillar to a lot of people's personalities. Learning about other peoples religion is one way to put a stop to casual prejudice in later life, IMHO.
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
17:03 / 24.02.06
I think various religions from the local community should come in to teach in religous education classes, i am not sure i am happy with it being only an academic subject.

Was reading an article a week or two ago about Islamic schools in Toronto who take their kids on field trips to temples, churches, synagouges (sp?), and the like for their RE classes to actually talk to the priests and congregation of the religion they are studying. Which is cool, and which I totally agree with.

When I was at Catholic school (single semester, was right in my backyard, private school I'd been going to didn't offer same range of courses) you had the option in OAC (grade 13) of taking either Philosophy or Religion. You had to take one of them. It was mandatory. I'm given to understand that the Religion class was just Catholicism up till around grade 10 or 11, and 12 and OAC were "World Religion" courses.

Now, my Philosophy teacher was a devoted Catholic, but she taught a very fair course, and had us watching a number of movies that I wouldn't have expected to be shown in a Catholic school (like "The Matrix"). She was quite well educated and very reasonable.
 
 
Feverfew
22:00 / 24.02.06
My RE classes at school were taken by a Chaplain for part of my educational career. My abiding memory ( silly anecdote alert ) is not of any particular education; it's more of the fact that, like Bard, the Chaplain used a film as an educative aid.

However, in our case, he used Priest . Which was, to be fair, informative. Possibly not the best thing to show to a class of fourteen-year-old boys, though. Although, on reflection, that might have been the point. (Granted, this was the same school that taught a section of the English GCSE by showing us No Way Out . Go figure.)

By the time I reached A Levels and went to a different school, they had brought in PSE lessons, one of which was a visit to a Mosque, which was fascinating. Apart from that, though, my comparatively recent experiences in the British school system's Religious Education classes were entirely unmemorable.

I'm entirely in favour of religious education classes, but I believe they should impart as much knowledge about as many religions as possible, which may of course lead to confused teenagers but might be a good idea in the long run.

Therefore in response to the topic's summary, I don't believe that particular religions should be given greater emphasis than others. Perhaps the question then becomes one of eligibility; what makes a religion "big enough" to merit teaching?
 
 
ghadis
22:45 / 24.02.06
My own RE eductaion 15-20 years ago in Wales was pretty minimal and christian. Not suprisingly as the school was 99.9% white kids. Vague prayers in the morning for Primary school and some RE classes in Secondary but i wasn't about much.

My son (who is 14 and at Secondary school in West London) seems to be having a pretty good education in this respect. The classes are now called B.V (Beliefs and Values) and they have covered (term by term) all the main world religiions of Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Buddism etc and have included trips to temples, mosques and churches. They've also gone into Atheism and Agnostism for a project.

Also, as the class is Beliefs and Values, they look at subjects such as abortion and euthanasia and how different faiths may view these matters. The class seems to make a big effort to encourage the kids to explore their own ideas and thoughts on these subjets.

This seems like a totally sensible way to teach this. Cover all subjects with respect and allow each pupil to bring to the table their own experiences of faith and ideas so that they can all learn off each other.

Of course this is in West London where there is a huge asian population and a lot of my sons friends are muslim. I think this way of teaching is best all round but there may be difficulties in less multi culteral areas. Maybe?

My son now says that at the moment he is an agnostic and i love the way he is thinking about these issues. I also love the way that for Ramadan last year him and his white mates fasted to support their muslim mates because they didn't think it was fair to eat in front of them.

I also loved helping him with Kali Yantras for his homework last year.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:24 / 24.02.06
I think that getting various community leaders, such as imams, priests, monks etc in to explain would be far better since they can give the kids a proper understanding of what being a member of a religion is actually all like.

I think religion should be taught by people who aren't inside the religion. I have a tendency to take against religious leaders very strongly and it probably would have ruined my religious education classes to actually have to listen to them wax lyrical about their own religions.

Priests who know about mosques and imams who know about churches- that's what education really requires.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
23:26 / 24.02.06
I think the notion of 'religious education' needs to be examined pretty carefully to adequately answer the question posed by Nina in the abstract...

Most responses to the thread so far are concerned with the notion of educating young minds as to the trappings of the different faiths, what they advocate, hold sacred, their respective histories maybe, and so on, and this is all valuable and certainly accounts for a relevant and maybe even vital branch to a general knowledge of the modern world, how it arrived, and how it is functioning from this angle.

But how do people feel about the aim of all of these finger-pointing exercises? The common ground which they all share, the moon being pointed at, however abstractly, poetically and culturally colored the teaching may be? The moon itself, as it were? Yes, for a better, more tolerant world it's a very good idea, I think, to educate people early on about the various methods of pointing to that moon which cannot, really, be pointed at (as it is also doing the pointing, and so on etc. etc.)...

But what of the moon itself? Should, for want of a better term, spirituality be a part of the education system? By which I mean, connecting pupils with Spirit, devotion and God/Allah/Jehovah/etc.

It is a rare and esoteric minded teacher who would have it that religion is literal - a reunion with One, advaita, indivisibility of the subject-object fallacy - though this would, in fact, dovetail neatly with the tail end of a secondary school physics curriculum. The dissolution of self and other back into Unity. From what I recall of the attempts to educate me about religion when I was at school, it (they) came across none too succesfully as llittle more than a moral code and stricture I at the time saw no requirement for Divinity to possess and support, predicated on the notion of (future) punitive action from Deity if not adhered to...This being because the authority of writing and tradition in at least the He God Monotheistic Three precludes and takes precedence over self examination leading to gnosis. This might not be such a bad thing if, in the case of Christianity at least (which I am sort of referring to largely here, speaking from experience of learning in a Christian country), the standard text were not such a hopelessly corrupted and mistranslated mess.

It's a tricky idea, and one most folks seemingly reject out of hand these days, because everybody is very much attentive to the various fingers, and the moon is a distant and forgotten memory, or considered 'too awkward' or politically sensitive to openly educate about. Describing and testing at the end of term what date this and that happened and who said x to y, and the Chinese astrological system and the various festivals etc. is the limit of the current remit and the consideration of this thread so far.

Is this right? Or should it be the responsibility of tax payers and schools to at least try to instil Spirit into young hearts, or is that strictly a matter for the family and community? Does that work? Do people have a common understanding of what I mean by 'Spirit' here?

I wonder why, as a society, we have become so totally alienated from any sense of Divinity or wonder at our basic premise here. People have more faith in Science and the Authoritative (human) Other than themselves and their own Inner Teacher, higher self or sense of alignment with Nature, and it continues apace in spite of the obviously cataclysmic results being wrought on the environment and society by this attitude. Or are these so obviously results of that attitude? To me they are, but I guess I'm making some pretty hefty assumptions there.

What do you think?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
23:51 / 24.02.06
On a slight aside, and apologies for the swift detour, but it fascinates, frustrates and infuriates me that basic Christianity has, from what I can tell, a pretty hard time being taught in churches, never mind schools, in anything but an incredibly culturally appropriated fashion.

Scholarly examination of the oldest texts (particularly the Peshitta texts (Syriac Aramaic, widely considered (though not completley uncontroversially) to be the oldest and most authentic - Peshitta means 'simple', 'sincere' or 'true') has been widely conducted, and has highlighted for many years the woeful inadequacy of the KJV translation and all those which have succeeded it...in fact, all modern translations of the Bible continue to be taken from Greek, a language and culture radically different from the Middle Eastern languages and mystical traditions which spawned the Church, but still prejudiced as "most authoritative" and betraying a cultural arrogance which has survived centuries, recapitulating the general ignorance of and prejudice against native peoples and their cultures on the part of so-called "civilised man".

That would be religious education.

Why the Aramaic words of Jesus are not used in Church services I simply do not understand. He was asked how, and quite clearly responded, in every Gospel I believe : 'This is how to pray'...and it's been butchered and set in stone in such a wonky form.

Sorry, please resume. Pet peeve at the moment. Perhaps I should start a thread and stop infecting every post in the Temple with it.

Dragging myself back on topic, I think the problem with expecting churches/religious institutions (and maybe even schools) to teach what I call Spirit to pupils/initiates is that the aim is counter to the interests of the institution if it has become, as most inevitably do, properly institutionalised...if succesful, the pupil becomes Master and no longer requires or defers any authority to the institution.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
00:24 / 25.02.06
There was a slightly dodgy episode in my first year of secondary school where the teacher, who on all other accounts was young, exuberant and generally a nice person, held a group meditation in the class, and her words were "just focus and be calm and look and see god". Then we were supposed to draw what we'd seen in our exercise books.

The issue being not the teaching of practical meditation techniques, optional of course, but the last word in that sentence. It puts a pre-defined form on the experience, too loaded with meanings. If she'd told us to draw "whatever we saw", I wouldn't have had a problem with it, but using the word "god" a) implied that culture was nature, i.e. that you would see the thing called "god" no questions asked, and b) caused a lot of eleven-year-olds to draw old men with beards.

Which about sums up my views. Teaching about religions is good, but advocating any one in particular is obviously bad- the point being it's incredibly easy for even well-meaning people to do this.
 
 
ghadis
00:25 / 25.02.06
But what of the moon itself? Should, for want of a better term, spirituality be a part of the education system? By which I mean, connecting pupils with Spirit, devotion and God/Allah/Jehovah/etc.


I can't see how spirituality could be part of the education system. I feel that the goal of education, whatever the subject, is not so much about teaching a certain subject but allowing that person to develop their own ideas within the subject. Spirituality is a very nebulous thing and we are maybe born with the drive to it within us but the idea that it could be in any way taught or directed leads us on to RE. Apart from taking kids out to look at the trees and the nature and the world about us and trying to explain something about the spirtiual essence of things. Well, forget it. Kids are better than that than we are!!
 
 
grant
03:29 / 25.02.06
I kind of think the only way to get the moon in the class is to talk about as many ways of pointing to the moon as possible; that's what I meant by "expressions of the religious experience."

I don't think spirituality can be taught in any other way because I don't think it's as standardized as most curricula. Although, you know, learning something about meditation and, like, actually giving prayer a shot now or then might do a little something. I'm very uncomfortable with that done in a school though, since schools are inherently authoritative.
 
 
ghadis
03:46 / 25.02.06
Well i think the idea of sitting kids down for a few minutes each morning to 'settle down' is maybe what a lot of morning prayer has been about. I think it's a good idea. In the same way that, as adults, a bit of meditation sorts us all out before we enter into something. Something that we need to think about and be in a receptive state both physically and mentally. Like the way that it's only been recently that schools have allowed drinks into classes (water not fizzy pop) and realised the benefits of non-de-hydrated kids. A few minutes of quiet time and a bit of water can do wonders.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:55 / 26.02.06
There are so many problems with the notion of teaching divinity that I hardly know where to start.

The first is the idea that divinity can be taught. I firmly believe that's impossible. The second is the idea that divinity is in any way tangible- for many it simply doesn't exist or not as religion but perhaps as the earth or in science at an atomic level. My point being that people reach the divine in so many ways with such diversity that really you can only give them a grounding in subjects and let them reach the conclusion that suits them on their own.

Religion has always been about human interaction for me, individual approach, community, stuctures (buildings as well as the formation of the institutions) and god or whatever creature is labelled as divine comes later as the purpose and not the immediate reality. To give children more than the reality I think is to indoctrinate them into another institution and that should be avoided because fundamentally that's not what school should do. To try to teach a child instinct is to ignore that the instinct is already inside them and it's far too easy for a teacher to then forget that a child primarily is a person.

I wonder why, as a society, we have become so totally alienated from any sense of Divinity

Because a good proportion of people don't believe.

It is a rare and esoteric minded teacher who would have it that religion is literal - a reunion with One

All of my RE teachers were Christian and I suspect many of them took religion as literal (at least two were deeply embedded in the evangelical church). I would prefer it if RE was taught by people who didn't believe at all, were deeply objective.

I think your analysis of institutional education is accurate, it is a training ground for society and your views on the bible interest me. I'm not sure of the conclusions you reach from that. Children, I think, do not need to be taught about the divine.
 
 
Olulabelle
00:24 / 27.02.06
Maybe that's true, but they probably should be taught that there are many different religions and basic facts about those religions since a huge amount of the world's population practice them. It's basic education.
 
 
Katherine
09:29 / 27.02.06
I'm all for a unbiased overview of religions being taught at school.

I had pretty awful RE lessons at school, we were taught for the two years about the jewish faith. I always had the impression the teacher didn't know anything but what he was reading out from a book. In a sense he was a pupil in lesson time too. Not encouraging at all, especially when the only jewish student in the class would correct him on points.

I would have loved to have classes where you could learn about other religions, ok you probably are going to have pass over in depth stuff otherwise you probably will only get four religions taught before examtime but the chance to know a little bit about other religions would have been great, afterall if you don't know somethings there, you can't necessary go and find it.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:43 / 27.02.06
I suspect that part of the problem with religious education is that so much of school work is target oriented these days and I don't think there's any way you can meaningfully teach R.E. such a way, testing kids at the end of each time over the key points of the Buddha's life. In my 'umble opinion there seems to be a built in wariness in the curiculum for years now, perhaps decades, of encouraging children to think. Maybe this is results related, a kid that can argue with anybody about anything but is unable to master French or Chemistry is going to appear a failure when it comes to GCSE or A Levels, which will look bad for the school.

Plus teachers seem awfully worried about the possibility of offending the religious beliefs of parents, the Jehovas Witnesses kids didn't have to do RE when I was at school, I wasn't allowed to opt out of maths because I didn't believe in quadratic equations.

The type of class Ghadis describes for his son, God I wish we'd had something half as interesting as that. I might have stayed awake then.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
10:46 / 02.03.06
Because a good proportion of people don't believe.

Which just goes to show how limited and asphyxiated so-called 'religious education' really is.

Believe what? That the Universe is? People don't believe that? Show them to me!

That Isness is Isness? That that which is must be? Already Is? Always Was? Always Will Be?

If everything that is does not be then the whole pack of cards comes down and nothing, absolutely nothing, has any basis in reality or sense whatsoever.

I know nothing of 'a' God to 'believe' in. The idea is, frankly, childish.

Yod He Vav He.

Not, after all, 'I am that I AM', but actually 'I will be that which I will be'. Look it up if you like.

As told to Moses, allegedly. What shall I tell them you are called? 'I will be that which I will be'. Or, even simpler, 'I will be'.

Becoming. Alive. Growing. Unformed. All around and of 'you'. Does this really require suspension of disbelief, or some kind of 'leap of faith'? For me it doesn't. Maybe I'm lucky.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:55 / 02.03.06
By which I mean to say : God is not taught in any of the big religions as, and never has been, a thing. Certainly not a thing to 'believe' in or not.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
12:02 / 02.03.06
By which I should add : traditionally, that is. Simple minded buffoons may have co-opted and sugar-coated and dribbled up the teachings, and, indeed, no doubt have, but this shouldn't necessarily inform notions of what religion is or is supposed to be.

On the other hand, maybe any attempt whatsoever to communicate such notions is simple minded buffoonery, or at best chicanery and cheap salesmanship, even if well meaning, though often not.

Shoddy salesmen selling second rate rubbish in the market of spiritual goods and services. Like death and taxes, it goes on and on.
 
 
Quantum
13:32 / 02.03.06
Best R.E. teacher I ever had was a Philosophy teacher.
I think a variety of teachers is the best solution, so they teach from within a religion and have the knowledge of it, but avoid the brainwashing effect of a single view.
It should definitely be taught to teenagers at school IMHO.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
19:49 / 02.03.06
Believe what? That the Universe is? People don't believe that? Show them to me!

In religion, in religious structure and divinity with regards to that. We're discussing religious education, as in the examination of existing religions rather than lessons in spirituality. I think RE is best kept socially geared because divinity is so varied and difficult to describe.

Simple minded buffoons may have co-opted and sugar-coated and dribbled up the teachings

Which is a good reason to keep it quite narrow, to extend it to physical structures (the layout of churches etc.), so that buffoonery doesn't come across too much!
 
  
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