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English History and records of who said what, when.

 
 
Olulabelle
21:01 / 23.02.06
Queen Elizabeth apparently said a lot of things which were recorded by someone somehow, for example the famous Spanish Armada speech which contains the line: I know I have but the body of a weak and feeble woman; but I have the heart of a king, and of a king of England, too...

What I would like to know is, since presumably no-one was standing there taking it down in shorthand as she said it, how do we know that she said this?

Did she make it up on the spot or was it pre-written? If so, was it written by her? If not who wrote it? Does the record of this speech still exist and if so where is it? Can I see it?

Is there a particular museum or library where the actual historical documents which record the sayings of important historical figures are kept?

There's no real reason for wanting to know all this, I'm just interested and also have a yen to go and look at the actual documents.
 
 
grant
21:23 / 23.02.06
Why do you presume nobody was taking notes?

I presume oppositely.

I can't find any manuscripts in a quick search, but I found this, which makes me think, speech - given at Parliament - body for which records are important - some kind of parchment-based stenography a given.

This site hopes to create a history of record-keeping in England. It seems to be concerned with a period well before Elizabeth, but does mention that monastery records were only inferior to those kept by the Crown.
 
 
grant
21:34 / 23.02.06
Oh, and this thing about how Shakespeare's plays were handed down:

Scholars are often detectives, and Davidson's "big break" in her research came when she was browsing through the Kenyon library in the section on the history of books and printing. "I happened upon a book that the Ohio State University library, where I do most of my research during the academic year, did not own." The book was the obscure Title Page Borders Used in England and Scotland 1486-1640, by R.B. McKerrow and F.S. Ferguson, published in 1932. In looking through the book, Davidson noticed that the picture on the title page of the 1609 Pericles was the same as on the first page of another book, John Willis's The Art of Stenographie of 1602. Both books had been published by the same Elizabethan printer, William White.

For Davidson, the effect of this simple fact "was electrifying." She recalled a past theory, often discredited, that stolen plays of Shakespeare had been surreptitiously copied, while they were being performed, in modern shorthand, which had just been invented. And Willis's stenographic system was one of the most popular. Davidson recalled this discovery with one word: "Eureka!" She had what scholars often hope for but often work years to reach--what she refers to as "that moment of instant insight or recognition."

Davidson now felt empowered to investigate the connections between the contents of Willis's book on shorthand and the plays of Shakespeare, searching for textual evidence to show how shorthand transcriptions could have molded the language of Pericles. Her net widened to include King Lear, which one scholar calls "the bibliographer's [Mount] Everest," as there are two editions of the play dating from 1608 and 1623. Davidson metaphorically explains that she is "trying to make my way up the slopes of this textual mountain, and I believe I have found mypath to the summit in Willis's Stenographie."


The "father of stenography" lived in 63 BCE, invented the ampersand, and recorded meetings of the Roman senate. Things I didn't know before.
 
 
grant
21:36 / 23.02.06
Same timeline mentions that Elizabeth I awarded a patent to the inventor of modern shorthand, Timothe Bright.
 
 
grant
21:49 / 23.02.06
Would you like to see some notes?
 
 
Olulabelle
22:10 / 23.02.06
WOW. Thank you for all that Grant.

I can't believe there might have been someone taking notes in shorthand! That's strangely wonderful.

It would seem that Cambridge holds an awful lot of original documents. Perhaps i should write to them to find out where the original recording of the speech is held and who recorded it.
 
 
Olulabelle
22:12 / 23.02.06
Those original document images are fascinating aren't they? It doesn't even seem to matter when they're about inventories and ordinary everyday things because they look so interesting and are written so beuatifully.
 
 
grant
00:28 / 24.02.06
Yeah, they are beautiful -- I can't decide if it's the beauty of the hand I admire more, or the box underneath asking people to attempt a transcription.
 
 
astrojax69
02:12 / 24.02.06
as an aside, the new parliament house in canberra, australia (my home!) has one of the four original documents (well, exemplifications - contemproaneous copies - the actual original sealed by king john is lost) that was the magna carta it is apparently valued at several many million australian dollars (ie a few pounds sterling!) the date of this 'original' is 1215, i think...

old docs are fantastic and yes, lula, do write to cambridge and get access. have fun!
 
 
Olulabelle
08:31 / 24.02.06
I might try. I don't know what the protocol is for showing the general public documents like that. You probably have to be a brainy historian or something to view them. Just wanting to see them might not be a valid reason!
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
17:19 / 24.02.06
If you want to see original documents, your best bet is probably to try The National Archives (though you might have some difficulty with Tudor State Papers - they're available in a microfilm surrogate and one usually has to beg and plead to see the originals). But they have vast collections of government documents almost from the year dot. More interesting literary stuff is probably easiest to see at the British Library - the Bodleian and Cambridge University Library would probably require letters of reference etc., and the BL may too. Or try your local record office - much easier to get into to look at old stuff, and probably more interesting than state papers (I am jaundiced as spent most of today looking at 1630s State Papers Spain, yawn, treaty this, treaty that).

Now, Elizabeth I at Tilbury is a bit contentious. That speech, alas, was not recorded by a contemporary, and indeed the only surviving record of it is in a printed version of a letter of 1623 written by an eyewitness. However, there are records nearer the time of a different speech given at Tilbury, which seems to have gone something like this:

'It may be they challenge my [sexe] For that I am a woman so may I charge their mould for that they are but men whose breath is in their nostrells' etc. etc.

So she definitely said something at Tilbury, but no one knows what. The 1623 account was probably heavily distorted by all the mythmaking that went on after her death (and in 1623 it became fashionable to be against Spain, after the failure of the Spanish Match negotiations, perhaps another factor).

There is an article on all this on JSTOR, here, which you might not be able to see - I can't tell whether I'm seeing it through my university account or not, apols if this is the case...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
17:40 / 24.02.06
I like the Cambridge site - good fun. I had a pop at this one, which turned out to be a very bad poem (and this is not an exact transciption):

Distillers toyle & beat their busie braynes
Elixer fine or Quintessence to make
Which well they thinke will recompence their paines
Yf they performe the thinge they undertake
Yet seeking what should lengthen lyf & health
Oftetymes spend both & waste their tyme & wealth.
Gould, pearle, & stone ritch, pretious, proud of price
Do overpercke most mightye monarches Crownes
And make moste men all daungers to dispise
Wth life & lyme to hazard their renownes
And whie but yt they all in small Comprise
More power then thinges more base in larger life
And whie then should not this small pamphlett seeme
bye far more right to house far more esteeme.
Ffor all these thinges, yf they be hadd, at laste
serve but as flares [to ] servile bodies vse
And erre they be posseste are gone and paste
And bootlesse helpes their masters must refuse
When as ye Quintessence this booke Contaynes
An peerelesse gemme for evermore remaynes.

(Please excuse my showing off - I rarely get a chance to do it on Barbelith...)
 
 
Olulabelle
19:47 / 24.02.06
I am all amazement Kit Kat! Show off some more please!

I should have known to ask you.

Alas, I do not have access to your link. The page I get says I might have if I am a member of a Higher Education institution, but the University of Central England School of Jewellery where I study part-time is not on the list. Unsurprisingly.

So then, where does the famous speech come from? Who is resposible for recording that she said it?
 
 
grant
02:08 / 25.02.06
Kit-Cat Club, I will have your babies.

Is that signature "Geoffrey"?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
08:50 / 26.02.06
I think it says 'A Collerye' - could be a signature, might also be the first words of the next page (v. frequent).

Lula - of course now I can't access the ruddy thing either - I'll have a look on Monday and see what it says. The chap who wrote the 1623 letter was called Dr Leonel Sharp, but alas I don't know anything about him except that...
 
 
Olulabelle
16:34 / 26.02.06
Thank you very much!
 
  
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