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Drastically altering personal beliefs at will

 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
02:31 / 20.02.06
After I was "liberated" from the restaurant industry, I answered an ad in the paper that vaguely suggested selling art in a "rock n' roll atmosphere". The gallery was located, according to the ad, in a hip part of town. Thinking it was some sort of legitamate art gallery, I set off for the interview.

Some of you may know where this is heading. You can find ads like these in several cities. The "gallery" was not located in a hip part of town. And it wasn't a "gallery", just an office and a warehouse full of art. The job was selling art to companies door-to-door. I felt duped.

The manager who interviewed me said "of course we duped you. If the ad had said anything about sales, would you have answsered it?" No, I admitted. I had never once considered sales as a field I wanted a part of. "Well why not try it, you can make good money and we all drink beer at the end of the day. You'll meet some cool people, hit on receptionists, make some friends..." He didn't need to go on, the promise of free beer was enough to interest me.

So I became a door-to-door salesman. The company I worked for was pretty slick. Follow their program and you could have a lot of fun and make some good money. And the office certainly had a "rock n' roll atmosphere", and there was beer. Lots of beer.

I won't go into all the details, but the job required being likable and charming on command. It involved things like Attracting Attention, Being Excited and Exciting, or Taking Control of Conversations. I'm a pretty low-key guy, so all of this went against my reserved nature. But I tried hard, and it all got easier and easier to do.

But that's not really a belief change, just a personality change. The hard part was coming up.

People still weren't buying art from me. I couldn't understand it. I had as many shows as anyone else (meaning I, a scraggly looking stoner, could stroll into a random office and convince at least a few goons in suits to come take a look at the art I had stashed in the trunk of my car, which is not a very easy thing to do), but I couldn't close the deal for shit. I could get the people to the art, I just couldn't make them buy it. I went to my manager for advice.

He tells me "the reason everyone else is making at least $100 a day except you is because they BELIEVE that the product is great. This belief comes across and people get excited about the product and want to buy it". I told him I didn't buy all that bullshit.
"Of course not" he says. "I bet when you go into one of those giant glass corporate towers you're having fun running around where you know you don't belong, having talked your way past receptionists or security guards or whatever." I say yeah, that's about right. "Because you don't believe in the product. You don't believe you are actually giving them a good deal. You believe you are swindling them". Guilty, I says. "That's why you don't close. Customers can pick up on that. You have every other advantage I can think of, but you'll get nowhere until you start to believe". I hestitated to give him any credit, not least because this whole YOU MUST BELIEVE bit was starting to freak me out. But he had been doing the job for years and had great success with it.

So now I had to believe in the idea of going door to door selling art. The other salespeople agreed on this. Problem was I, in sharp contrast to everyone else at the company, could not in any way justify strolling into a cubicle farm during office hours, distrubing everybody in the room, and trying to sell them art. I didn't think I could ever see that as anything other than very inappropriate. Personally, I would (and do) tell any and all door-to-door people to get the hell out. But I was rapidly running out of money and needed to start selling so I gave it a shot.

Final Analysis: I could, through lots of effort, convince myself that what I was doing was okay. I could believe that I had every right to stroll past "No Soliciting" signs and make a pitch to someone. Unfortunately, cold calling sales involves a lot of rejection, and some of it is pretty intense. People have called the police on me more than once. Voices are often raised. My belief was there, but it wasn't strong enough to stand up to the rejection I was going through. It was a constant battle of will just to go through the next door and face down whoever I had to make the pitch to, much harder than when it was all just a game. In the end I had to quit. I couldn't sustain a level of belief strong enough to make me any money. I got the sense that with practice I could have been successful, but at that point I was flat broke and didn't have the time to experiment.

Too bad. At least I learned some neat shit. Anyone else have any experieces they would like to share regarding a concious shift in personal beliefs, hopefully meeting with more success than myself?
 
 
Andrue
04:46 / 20.02.06
Interesting read. The whole marketing and sales industry is pretty incredible -- you'll hear that same kind of pitch about belief everywhere you go. I almost picked up one of those jobs myself this summer, but decided against it. In reality (and this is easy for me to say, because I've never been in a position similar to the one you're in), it's a good show of character that you CAN'T adopt that kind of belief just to benefit from it. Beliefs are such a principal piece of whatever it is that makes us human, that I think one should be careful which they adopt, and why they adopt them. If you'd like to adopt beliefs just for the sake of ease or convenience, why not simply adopt a belief in line with non-denominational Christianity, accept Jesus into your heart, and be done with the spiritual search?
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
05:55 / 20.02.06
it's a good show of character that you CAN'T adopt that kind of belief just to benefit from it.

Meh. I've been telling people for years that it couldn't be too difficult (which was wrong). I'm confident that with time I could've made it work. Money played a role in both my intial interest and my final decision to leave, so really I was financially motivated both ways.

It wasn't so much a problem of not being able to adopt a belief as not being able to hold it with an intensity that could withstand constant and forceful evidence to the contrary. I wonder if that's a character problem.

If you'd like to adopt beliefs just for the sake of ease or convenience, why not simply adopt a belief in line with non-denominational Christianity, accept Jesus into your heart, and be done with the spiritual search?

Growing up how I did, this was probably inevitable. Jesus was everywhere. In no way did this stop my spiritual search.
 
 
the permuted man
13:13 / 20.02.06
That was an enjoyable read, but it makes a hard act to follow. I know if it were me, I would have responded to your boss's advice by trying to improve my sales while still believing the product was shite. Perhaps my desire to do so would be so intense the end result would be the same. I've just never responded well to statements like "they all succeed because they believe".

I've frequently been accused of "turning a complete 180" or various incarnations thereof. It's probably my most criticized character flaw. Rarely do I feel like I've changed my underlying beliefs however. I just see nothing compelling me to be true to my yesterday's self. Each time I'm asked a question, I reevaluate it on the spot, and if I decide I want to do something which a week ago I said was the stupidest thing in existence, I'm not going to let that stop me.

I don't think that's what you're getting at though. I've also tried to mindfuck myself and use acid for imprinting. I don't know if I'd call it entirely successful. If anything, I find I just now have a lot of conflicting beliefs but see no reason to reconcile them. It's like I didn't change any beliefs, I just added them.
 
 
Sekhmet
16:34 / 20.02.06
I think I've heard that before, the idea that you have to "believe" in the product in order to sell it. Maybe being able to convincingly pretend to believe in the product would be just as good.

(Offtopic, we have people come by my office regularly who do those art sales. They always claim to be from a gallery that's going out of business and trying to liquidate their stock. The same gallery has apparently been liquidating the same stock repeatedly for at least the past five years. They're very annoying, but my office has purchased photographic prints from them on several occasions.)


I'm skeptical about the idea of adopting "beliefs" willy-nilly. You can change your mind, or have an epiphany or a conversion experience, or be convinced through well-reasoned argument, sure. But to wake up in the morning and decide to believe you are a peanut butter sandwich is a mind-trick of which I doubt most people are capable.

This is one of the concepts that really turns me off about so-called chaos magic. The theory, I'm sure, is to avoid becoming trapped in a paradigm (or "reality tunnel" if you prefer), but in practice it seems paradoxical, self-defeating, and kind of pointless.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:17 / 20.02.06
This is one of the concepts that really turns me off about so-called chaos magic. The theory, I'm sure, is to avoid becoming trapped in a paradigm (or "reality tunnel" if you prefer), but in practice it seems paradoxical, self-defeating, and kind of pointless.

Well it didn't do me much good, I'll admit. Trying to believe something in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary was an unpleasant experience.

But I'm still curious about how everyone else managed it. I'm positive they didn't come to the job thinking "It'd be great to hook up companies with framed and matted art for wholesale prices, I mean that'd be really cool", but rather picked that up the first few days in the field. I'm wondering if my prejudice towards door-to-door sales kept me from making any money.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:56 / 20.02.06
You can change your mind, or have an epiphany or a conversion experience, or be convinced through well-reasoned argument, sure.

This is one of my problems with the word "belief". The word, like the word "faith", can have several layers of meaning. When I speak of "changing my beliefs" or "adopting a new belief", I'm refering to a process of radically altering my perspective enough to make room for Random Idea X, something I'm confident everyone is capable of.

But to wake up in the morning and decide to believe you are a peanut butter sandwich is a mind-trick of which I doubt most people are capable.

Unless you convinced them that peanut butter sandwiches feel, see and do just like most people, i.e. they sleep in beds, have arms and legs, watch sports on television, masturbate, eat cantaloupes, whatever. Then it might be pretty easy, although I can't imagine what purpose there would be in people believing they are peanut butter sandwiches other than that it'd be pretty funny.
 
 
the permuted man
19:03 / 20.02.06
But I'm still curious about how everyone else managed it.

They say if you act like you believe something long enough, you'll start believing it. Sounds like something they would say to me.
 
 
Sekhmet
13:33 / 21.02.06
But I'm still curious about how everyone else managed it.

Maybe they couldn't tell that the product was crap, and had no clue about professional etiquette? There are such people, alas.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
17:32 / 21.02.06
it's been my experience that the less you take into consideration (in this case about the art "product"), the less there is to dissuade your "belief"

ie if you don't consider the nature of the business, sales, marketing, mass-production, consumerism, materialism, profit-driven industry, etc... the art is just a print, and easier to consider.

I find it difficult to detach all of the immaterial qualities I attach to material objects. I am atrocious at sales.

Taking the present situation at face value may make it possible to believe that you're providing someone with a piece of art that they might very well appreciate despite the fact that you think it's a piece of crap.

maybe?

--not jack
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:01 / 21.02.06
Taking the present situation at face value may make it possible to believe that you're providing someone with a piece of art that they might very well appreciate despite the fact that you think it's a piece of crap.

Well, the art was solid, that wasn't really the problem. It was all prints of Dali, Monet, Van Goh, stuff like that. Then there were Ansel Adams prints and historic Detroit black and whites. And really, our prices were about 60-70% cheaper than what it would cost to get the prints framed and matted in a frame shop.

So believing in the product wasn't so hard as believing in the method. I had a very hard time believing that barging into offices during work hours was anything other than very rude, regardless of the fact that I was trying to hook them up with good art at discount prices.
 
 
Vadrice
15:58 / 22.02.06
I've always looked at this problem from an acting perspective.

'fake it 'till you make it' I've found that simply preforming the actions and physicalities of an emotional state as complex as belief on a regular basis actually has the side effect of causing that emotional state to blossom and grow.

I don't find it any more difficult or unplesant than going to the gym every day and doing a brisk hour work out (with a day off for Sundays, if you like)... But I've been into acting for a large part of my life.
Might have been harder when I first started. My memory is not so good.
 
 
Frater Treinta
16:45 / 22.02.06
I've done sales, and one thing that I've tried to keep in mind is that I'm not selling my product to me, I'm selling it to them. That means that if I'm going to make a serious effort at doing what's best for a customer, I have to reach and understanding then needs and desires of my potential customers and the context those needs and desires occur in. I might think that Giger is the greatest artist of all time, but that doesn't mean that it's in the best interest of a 65 year-old tax accountant to buy a print from Necronomicon for the front hall.

Even if, in fact, we both love Giger, he's probably still better off with "Sunflowers" or "Starry Night" or an Adams print for the purpose office decor. If you're selling hammers, find people with nails and be happy you could help them.
 
 
Hawthorn
20:35 / 28.02.06
I don't think there are too many smooth sales people on Barbelith; just doesn't seem the type of thing to attract corporate types.

But I would like to expand the topic (or be completely off topic). I've heard several reasons for changing beliefs in the frame of magic, one that it somehow liberates energy to be used for spells (free belief) and another that it helps establish a sense of self independent of belief and the trappings of society, a selfhood that could be useful for changing situations or when the shit hits the magical fan

This last was offered by a sort of mentor or tutor who had me try I guess disbelieving in things and it is hard. I am a pretty political person, very into activism and ecology and have some very strong beliefs. I've been starting with small easy things like negetive self-esteem beliefs, cultural standards of beauty, the existance of time, money, etc. Even that's scary but I at least don't have an ethical problem with it.

I'm not really Discordian, he is.
So I guess my question is, is it *right* to change one's own beliefs?
 
 
illmatic
22:18 / 28.02.06
I don't have time or energy to add to this thread right now, but people might find this thread of interestCan you just stop it by just not believing in it

It's a good one, well worth a read.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
06:29 / 01.03.06
That was a fun read. Lots of good info and some heated exchanges. Here's a phrase that caused a few frank comments:

The fluidity and scope of the logical levels in which successful belief change can filter through becomes wider in proportion to practice.

At first glance, an annoying clump of jargon that has little or no worth. Some posters said as much. But suppose what ze was trying to was say was that belief affects several levels of cognitive behaviour (the levels are seperated by different logical systems, or perhaps different logical values, or something along those lines, which is what I think the originator of the phrase was going for), and that by the practice of altering one's beliefs one can increase the fluidity and scope of the aforementioned levels propotionately to the practice of altercation. No mention is made of what that proportion is, but we can overlook that.

If this is in fact what ze was trying to say (well, even if it isn't), does this hold true? Will things like "scope" or "fluidity" be increased by the practice of altering one's beliefs? On which levels, if any?

Going by my own personal experience, I would have to say that no, I don't feel that the "scope" or "fluidity" of my thought processes (in regard to belief) have been increased. I feel that I gained valuable experience in the field of adjusting personal perspective, but I admit I don't feel any increase in any of my...um...levels.

I dunno. I'd welcome other opinions.
 
 
Seth
09:31 / 01.03.06
It's a reference to Gregory Bateson's Logical Levels, also called Neurological Levels, that were co-opted by NLP. It's a useful model in some contexts but leaves out a great deal... I've added Body and Relationships to the list depending on what I've been using it for. Check out Robert Dilt's site, there's an NLP Encyclopedia that will give a good working definition.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:16 / 01.03.06
The buddhist idea of non self is also useful, a self that exsists purely as a phenomina based on surrounding conditions and the relationships formed to surrounding conditions. Starting from the premise that there is no self, no essence and that surrounding emotionality and mentation create a sense of having a self. Easier if its been an experience rather than just alot of psycho babble.
 
 
dmj2012
00:07 / 06.03.06
Very interesting topic so far. The idea of changing belief systems at will is pretty central to a lot of chaos magic. But I find it's much easier to adopt a temporary belief alone in a ritual setting than it is to do out in the "real world."

I'm having similar issues with beliefs and sales right now, as I'm starting my own business and find myself procrastinating with marketing my practice and I feel that I sound kinda wishy washy when talking to patients afterwards about rebooking.

I'm trying a few different mind-experiments to help me change, including swiping an idea from Alan Moore and making up fictional characters to become for certain tasks (a la Promethea). So far I've had success in some areas and found blocks in others. Still trying to work through it.
 
 
Fell
16:38 / 07.03.06
Good read, I really like the angle you took on this from your own personal experience. I see a lot of people criticising the practise of paradigm shifting, or as I like to call it, paradigm management.

I'm no member of the IOT or anything, but for the past decade I have definitely found more in common with the school of chaos magic. I am also much more of a postmodernist, where I tend to believe that everything is open for debate, from different angles.

The thing is, the more paradigms you can truly lend yourself to, the more you can strip away all the frivolous elements after the fact. A sort of tacit wisdom becomes that of the magician with every paradigm s/he fully embraces, in that they become a true master of that realm.



By remembering the alchemical genius of the work Campbell did by refining the map of the monomyth, we can see how every realm of perception is either of us, or "against us." If it is alien, it represents the so-called underworld by which we can enter via a Call to Adventure. Through the very events described by Campbell (remember, symbolic language here, archetypes can be items, people, events, words, et cetera — learn to see the world as analogy), we can then see how one can enter into an alien paradigm, through trauma or other events learn to master that paradgim (or, at least, be "of" the paradigm), and then move on become of both paradigms. You are now reborn anew, of both worlds. A believer and non-believer at the same time.

People that say, "It's bullshit, it's a paradox," haven't done the work. Thus, they are imprisoned in their own unwillingness to embrace experience and make it their own.

If that is the case, they will never understand this equation:

Knowledge + Experience = Wisdom

Wisdom is occult. Wisdom is subjective, as well as relative. Wisdom is power. Wisdom is confidence.

And ultimatey, wisdom — this wellspring of the will — will lead one unto their own personal Path.
 
  
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