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Good progressive hardcore?

 
 
maryrosecook
09:38 / 16.02.06
What do people think of "progressive" or "post" hardcore? Is it a mellowing and diluting of what should be relentlessly aggressive and fast music, or a necessary diversification and sophistication of a stagnating genre via the infusion of other musical influences (prog, grind, tech)?

What other good bands bands, besides Circle Takes The Square, Maximillian Colby, The Ladderback, Submission Hold and The Red Scare, fit into this genre?
 
 
Sniv
12:23 / 16.02.06
I always thought post-hardcore was just a polite way of saying emo. I think the problem here is that there are so many definitions of what hardcore is/should be, as well as the status of the 'post'. When does hardcore become post? Cave-In, f'rinstance, started as a hardcore/metalcore band, then mellowed to have more space-rock elements, becoming more 'post'h/c. At least, that's how I understand it, as well as the term's origins in the DC h/c scene (which I don't know much about other than Fugazi).

Can't say I've heard of your bands there though. Fall Of Troy are a band I always consider to be 'prog'h/c, like Cave-In. What about the Mars Volta? Start life as a post-hardcore band anyway, then become... what? Prog-post-hardcore? Argh! Labels!!

I would be interested in finding some cool post-h/c though, as I find it a fun, heavy and interesting variety of music. I always find the punk off-shoots more interesting than metal though, but I wouldn't like to clarify my thoughts on that outrageous statement right now, for fear of exposing my ignorance. Must read more...
 
 
maryrosecook
13:09 / 16.02.06
Strictly, 'post'-[genre] means [genre] with sophistications. So post-hardcore is hardcore with more complex song structures, perhaps attempts at multi-layered instrumentation, perhaps unusual time-signatures, perhaps some singing. However, in practice, post-hardcore has come to mean anything that's a bit harsher than rock. There is definitely an element of, "I find that hardcore stuff a bit difficult, but I want to be cool so I can say I like hardcore if I listen to [insert emo band here]."

Being post-hardcore has nothing to do with a band or band member progressing from being in a hardcore band to being in a new, non-hardcore band. Cave-In were a hardcore band, but when they went space-rock, they were stopped being hardcore in any form.

If you like punk-influenced progressive hardcore, I'd DEFINITELY try Circle Takes The Square. They are almost symphonic in their progressiveness. Also try Submission Hold (fairly sprawling h/c punk with flute and upfront political content). You might also like some screamo bands like Saetia, Orchid, Love Lost But Not Forgotten. They have the speed and agressiveness of punk, but take it in a new, ear-splitting direction. Not prog-hardcore, but a progression of the genre.
 
 
Sniv
15:50 / 16.02.06
Cave-In were a hardcore band, but when they went space-rock, they were stopped being hardcore in any form.

Surely, that's the definition of post-hardcore - going beyond the original template for the genre. btw, have you heard their last album yet? It's awesome, and has a nice reflection of their heavier roots.

I will post more on this later, promise, I just need some food and stuff first (and checking bittorrent for the albums you flagged).
 
 
Locust No longer
15:29 / 17.02.06
Like most labels formulated by brainless music critics, "post-hardcore" doesn't really describe any of the music that supposedly falls within it's nebulous borders. I've heard so many disparate bands, all drawing from tremendously different backgrounds, referred to as post-hardcore that it boggles the mind. I think it's a lazy and obnoxious term that has become yet just another signifier of how clueless most music critics are about just about everything that comes from an underground source. But this is a rant and isn't directed at any of the posters here.

I've always thought that progressive hardcore/punk being cordoned off from their more straightforward brethren is a good indication of how stale and straight jacketed punk and hardcore music has become. I always thought that, originally, punk and hardcore was all about embracing the way ward influence-- from free jazz to reggae-- into a punk schema. Somewhere along the way, hardcore/punk became traditionally minded, retro and, frankly, boring. In my experience, most bands that tried something new, some of which are named in this thread, got pushed into this other thing-- post punk/ progressive punk/ post whatever, a place where most punk and hardcore kids feared to tread. Many of these bands, if not completely ignored within the scene they originated, gained cross over appeal with indie rock and emo kids. I'm not sure if this is to do with these bands taking on easier to swallow influences than hardcore and punk (although that appears to be the case at most times) or what. It's funny, that of all music scenes, punk has become some of the most fiercely retroactive in their music.

Submission Hold and Orchid are both bands that definitely came from a punk background. I like both of them. Orchid, in fact, is still one of my favorite bands. I'm not sure how tremendously progressive they were -- musically, they were very influenced by Canadian doom punk bands like Union or Uranus and One Eyed God Prophecy, just adding a faster element and situationist lyrics-- which is probably why they did pretty well within the punk scene. But they definitely were one of the first bands to really popularize the whole screamo thing with bands like Frail and Reversal of Man. If I were to put in a progressive punk/hardcore band from that period (late 90s, early 00s) that strove beyond the template and were overlooked, I would include: In//Humanity. This band from South Carolina made some of the most abrasive thrash ever but added electronics, strings, odd song structures, time signatures, and all their lyrics were dominated by a hilarious "Occultonomy" theme (Aleister Crowely mixed with situationist thought and Clue). They realized how ridiculous genre names like "emo," and emo's musical antithesis, "power-violence," were, so they beat everyone to the punch and half jokingly labeled themselves "emo-violence." "Emo-violence," unsurprisingly I suppose, caught on and actually became a label for bands like End of the Century Party, Orchid, Asshole Parade, and Combat Wounded Veteran (all of which are worth checking out). They didn't really sound the same but shared a similar and, yes, emotional but crazed/experimental aesthetic. The singer of In//humanity, Chris Bickle, went on to Guyana Punchline, another overlooked, pretty strange, great band, as well. In//humanity, of course, never achieved much fame in or out of the punk scene but have gained a bit of cult following. They have a discography CD out on Prank Records which is easy to find. I'll stop now.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
00:59 / 18.02.06
'Meat Puppets 2' and 'Meat Puppets 3'

You won't be disappointed.
 
 
Totem Polish
01:06 / 18.02.06
I know they buggered it up with their last album, but if any band epitomizes 'progressive' hardcore, then it's Converge on their Jane Doe album.

The songs flow into each other in an entirely improvisational manner and there are even entire songs of drum solos/Jake Bannen screeching away.

The song Jane Doe itself is the most slowed down and beguilingly beautiful that I've ever heard a band in the 'hardcore' scene ever be. More like a chant than a scream. Shame they never play it live...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
01:23 / 18.02.06
Actually, I take that back - the kinds of bands being discussed here would appear to be about something quite a bit different.

I'd be interested in hearing about how any of this could be definied as 'progressive,' though, in the sense that any of these mis-alligned brown rice 'emo' twits would deserve anything other than a hard slap.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
01:58 / 18.02.06
I should take that back also - Very soon, I'll be in my chintz-covered bed.
 
 
maryrosecook
12:16 / 19.02.06
Thanks for the great recommendations, LJT. I'll check out those bands. I agree that post-hardcore is a moribund term, but it can be useful to indicate bands that have some hardcore influences, but have tried to be a bit more sophisticated.

I used to be very impressed with Jane Doe, and it is a fantastic, concentrated blast of noise and bile. However, it is not that progressive, and still just boils down to being a very well put together metalcore album.
 
 
MacDara
18:32 / 19.02.06
'Meat Puppets 2' and 'Meat Puppets 3'

You won't be disappointed.


'Meat Puppets 3'? Maybe I'm missing a private joke here, but there is no 'Meat Puppets 3'. Unless you mean 'Up On The Sun', which is one of the greatest albums ever committed to vinyl (and not at all hardcore, post- or otherwise, in any way).
 
 
damon jablons
13:31 / 20.02.06
What exactly is considered post-hardcore? Anything that has evolved from hardcore? To what limit? I ask not to annoy, but only because I would say that Refused, and Glassjaw are excellent. But I'm not really sure if they're post-hardcore. And many people don't like glassjaw, I think I may hold a certain affinity for them because I'm from Long Island, as are they.
 
 
maryrosecook
13:53 / 20.02.06
Post hardcore, as has been discussed in this thread, is a populist term that doesn't really mean anything because it is applied to such a wide range of bands. However, one could look at it as indicating bands that try and do more than just spit out aggressive 4/4 blast-beating generic hardcore. I would put Glassjaw in the straight-up-metalcore bracket, but Refused could be argued as being progressive. See the rest of the thread and the summary for other bands that could be labelled progressive hardcore.
 
 
T Blixius
03:26 / 03.03.06
Nobody has mentioned the band Isis. I think 'Panopticon' is the best work, although it's the most progressive and least hardcore. I could also suggest 'Oceanic' by them. I really like Panopticon the best.

They certainly are one of those bands that draw on so many influences it's hard to describe where they exactly stand...
 
 
werwolf
06:12 / 03.03.06
it's been more than 8 years now since i followed the going-ons in the "hardcore" scene (any form of it), so i can only talk about some older bands that i know from back when.

2 have already been mentioned: CONVERGE and UNION OF URANUS. i think CONVERGE's "Petitioning The Empty Sky" is still something like a blueprint for a lot of more complex metal-oriented punk- and hardcore bands to follow, both for "straight" metal-core bands as well as the ambient and prog inclined ones. the double 7" of UNION OF URANUS is among the best that early screamo bands have put out. of course, there's also the legendary SWING KIDS, but i'd think they'd fall more into the bracket of taking old hc-punk and breathing new life into it, same as one of my favorite punk bands, ASSFCTOR 4. then there's early BOTCH material, the droning distortion-undulations of COALESCE, experimentalists SYSTRAL, the highly original RORSCHACH and the (imho) underrated ICONOCLAST. which, while writing it down, reminds me of 2 bands that did some proto work into beefing up 90ies hc: ECONOCHRIST and NAUSEA, the former more for the "new school", the latter more for the "straight punk". talking of new school, if anyone cares to go back to a time when there was no "metalcore" but only a big heap of "new school hc", i can recommend SHAI HULUD. and of course the forefathers of all things considered "new school": UNBROKEN (cross-index here w/ SWING KIDS).

now that i have done my share of "labelling", let's sum it up with: all of the above are gerat bands that deserve to be checked out for one reason or the other.
 
 
werwolf
06:13 / 03.03.06
oh yeah, i forgot to mention ACME. a bit overrated, but still very important for the (back then) newborn, nameless and upcoming metalcore scene.
 
 
Locust No longer
19:38 / 07.03.06
werwolf, your posts bring back some fond memories. I used to listen to a ton of those bands. I still listen to Rorschach, Uranus and Econochrist once and a while. Assfactor 4 was, indeed, a great band, albeit with a completely silly name. They were great being super fast while still carving out some great hooks. Have you heard Insult To Injury? It's probably an obscure reference, but they were a pretty good band that was highly influenced by Assfactor. Of course, there were probably a bunch of bands influenced by them that I don't know about. I think the early to mid nineties had some really great and influential bands come out out the US (many that you name above, but especially, Born Against, Rorschach, Citizen's Arrest, Econochrist, Uranus and almost everything on Ebulliton records. It's kind of sad that the US scene appears to be treading water at this point; all the bands are either diving into trendy fashion grind or just emulating Japanese or Scandi thrash. Oh well.
 
 
werwolf
06:53 / 08.03.06
there were a few INSULT TO INJURY scattered over compilations and mix tapes a couple of my friends gave me back then. i remember one song, i think it was called "f-word" or something similar. quite liked it, but (for some reason i can't think of now) never followed it up.

i agree. the us hc scene of the 90ies really something. lots of innovative bands, going into all sorts of different directions. just look at the crust core of that time coming from the us, especially on profane existence or skuld. for a genre, that is by definition not very prone to progress, STATE OF FEAR did a hell of job of pushing it forward. on the same token the fantastic CITIZEN'S ARREST. talking about ebullition, i have some... let's say problems with the label. i think that kent mcclard is an arrogant bastard drowning in his own self-rightous and judgmental bullshit. but there were quite a few good releases on the label: the SAWHORSE 7", all ICONOCLAST releases, ECONOCHRIST of course, then there was a LOS CRUDOS split with SPITBOY (i think?) on which the former rocked and the latter sucked (as always), i also think i remember several SEEIN' RED things coming out on ebullition.

i think that the entire hc scene these days is pretty much stuck in a rut, not only in the usa. the "scene" is imo to preoccupied with not being commercially relevant and staying out of the "mainstream" that they are starting to forget about making music and get delayed over petty squabbles. ( % is HATEBREED hardcore or metal now that they are successful? can i play a show with that band although they are not straight edge? did [insert any band here] sell out, because they released on label [insert any label name here] instead of [insert any other label name here]? % ) this was one of the main reasons i dropped out of the entire thing (i used to be the first singer of MAR until the "to the beat of a cold heart") and wouldn't care about it anymore. too much bs-spouting, not enough content.

i just remembered 2 other bands i think are worth checking out: 400 YEARS and STALINGRAD. and a friend of mine swears that YUPPICIDE were one of the best bands of their time. can't fully agree on that but they sure had their moments. as did SNAPCASE in their very early days (thinking of "lookingglassself").

and let me plug austria a little bit: FALLTIME and KONSTRUKT for anyone who is interested in psychedelic fuzzy hardcore (the former) and very aggressive and harsh experimental combination of hardcore and grindcore (the latter).
 
 
Totem Polish
10:07 / 08.03.06
On the commerce front I have to agree with werwolf, I remember a few years back when Hatebreed, Thursday, Cave In and Poison the Well had all been signed by majors there was a flurry of excitement and revulsion in the hc scene.

It was all slightly perverse, in that people were at once excited by the prospect of 'their' music finally getting the recognition it deserved while at the same time fretting at the moral implications of 'selling out'.

As we know it was all a non-starter since all these bands' major label debuts sucked major balls, PTW in particular, and nothing came of the 'extremo' explosion (as NME termed it...ngh). Except for Thrice ofcourse, then again they sound enough like Steve Vai on a speed binge to appeal to that whole market thing.

Now where's my Phantomsmasher album, that really is progressive hardcore at it's most challenging and spazzed out.
 
 
Locust No longer
02:24 / 10.03.06
Stalingrad from the UK, right? I really dug both their picture disc and LP on Armed With Anger. Stalingrad's singer sounded like a fucking maniac which is always good in my book (at least when it comes to punk).

Kent McClard was definitley a polarising force within the "scene" for sure. I think it was probably due in part because he put so much of his own writing/philosophy in the records he released, always a dubious move at best. But I have to say, many of the records he and Ebullition put out were very important to how I viewed punk and the community of punk. That label and the Heartattack 'zine were interested in creating dialogue and fostering critical thought which I thought was needed in such in a dogmatic and slightly hermetic community. Not only that, Ebullition and Heartattack were and are still a good counter point to the Profane Existence label/zine IMO. I figured they encompassed such different aspects of punk rock-- Anarchism and, uh, booze with PE, emo and sXe with Heartattack-- while still remaining intertwined and representative of a real underground scene. Speaking of PE, I just heard Resist's "Ignorance Is Bliss" LP at a friends house the other day. That was really strange as I hadn't heard it in many years. It's actually not that great of an album but still cool to hear. You're right, Werwolf, State of Fear was a great band and probably the best at the d-beat, scandi thrash style. Hell, they did it before anyone else did.

As for the whole selling out thing, it doesn't sound like much has changed. I remember when Green Day "sold out" and the uproar that incited. I always figured the bands that did it were shitty musically anyway. Unfortunately you have ideologically terrifying bands like Hatebreed will have a larger platform on which to sell their macho, homophobic bullshit that will inturn incite clueless kids to come to punk shows and ruin them by performing kick boxing moves in the pit. Jack asses.
 
 
werwolf
08:44 / 10.03.06
[quote Totem Polish] It was all slightly perverse, in that people were at once excited by the prospect of 'their' music finally getting the recognition it deserved while at the same time fretting at the moral implications of 'selling out'. [/quote]

absolutely. and many got completely lost in this ambiguity and forgot all about the music and the things that they were supposed to mean, as opposed to the things that they WANTED them to mean.

@ Locust Joking Thorax __
yeah, those are the STALINGRAD that i mean. i remember a show in a small student's club, where the singer jumped off stage, slipped on the tile floor and cut his head but kept on nevertheless. which reminds me of the furious DROP DEAD. [this thread turns out to be a rollercoaster ride through fond memories for me.]

yes, i agree, kent was a polarizing person and ebullition and heartattack played a major part in the hc scene in all its manifestations. no doubt about that. still, i couldn't stand the bugger's holier-than-thou attitude.

RESIST! *sigh* ah, yes, the memories. true, "ignorance is bliss" might not be the most glittering pearl in the chest, but it was quite a milestone and inspired many, many bands to follow.

i don't agree with the sentiment that bands who are accused of "selling out" are musically inferior. first of all that's a matter of personal taste, but leaving that aside,there are examples of actually musically very demanding and prolific bands opting for deals with major labels or larger labels, simply because of the opportunities that would grant them. sometimes this backfired on the bands, sometimes it worked out.
 
 
Sniv
12:14 / 10.03.06
So no-one here likes Jimmy Eat World then? heh...

Totem Polish - As we know it was all a non-starter since all these bands' major label debuts sucked major balls, PTW in particular

What?? Are you deaf or something? How is the first-major-label Poison the Well record anything but one of the meatiest, rocking and most satisfying albums to come out of that whole scene?

Seriously, that record has the most amazing, churning sound I've ever heard, and some of the songs are spectacular, with a lyrical subtlety and with something to say (at least, IMO) that most bands would kill for. Thrice on the other hand are just another widdly-solo post-h/c band with the imagination of a brain-damaged two year old. I can no longer trust anything you say. At all.

Anyway, I think my tastes are much too mainstream for this thread, so I'm going to take my major-label emo elsewhere. Hrrmph!
 
  
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