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MA/MFA programs, yay or nay?

sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q

14:28 / 15.02.06

I just got accepted to an MFA program in fiction and was wondering if there are other people here who've gone/are going and can talk about their experiences. Also, people who've decided not to go and their reasons why not.

I'm visiting soon and trying to figure out the right questions to ask, and also how to pick between programs if I end up being lucky enough to be in that position. I just got accepted to Cornell, and am particularly interested in people who know about Iowa, Brown, Michigan, Johns Hopkins, or UT Austin.

All Acting Regiment

23:12 / 15.02.06

Quick question, does MFA= British Master of Arts, anyone?

11:58 / 16.02.06

oh! the M in MFA stands for Master? I read it as Mother, and that clearly derailed the rest of my understanding of the question.

sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q

13:25 / 16.02.06

oh dear.... maybe I should edit the subject line. as far as i know, british MA and american MFA in fiction are basically equivalent, though not entirely sure.

16:04 / 16.02.06

If I hear you right, it might be exciting to note that Pynchon went to Cornell... though I don't think he did the Masters program.

As for the Yea or Nay, I think the best observation that I, and others of my sometimes published friends, is that an masters program doesn't create good writers, and getting approved for it is not at all the same thing as getting published. Essentially, it's a very detailed, but very expensive, workshop expereince for as long as the program lasts.

Or said another way, doing it can improve your writing, but having done it doesn't equal a publishable writer, if that makes sense.

18:59 / 16.02.06

mean bitter unpublished writers in america consider mfa programs to be nothing but networking tools. you cant get published unless you're good, most usually, but usually knowing even one insider from a good mfa program is exactly one more insider than anyone not in an mfa program knows, and that can be the difference between being published and not being published.

all workshops are what you make of them. listen to the good stuff, ignore the bad stuff, enjoy ithaca and the wine trail.

sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q

14:11 / 17.02.06

yes, thomas pynchon went there for undergrad, and toni morrison got an m.a. in english there. cornell's best known mfa program graduates are lorrie moore, junot diaz, and stewart o'nan. not a bad list.

so yeah, i guess i'm going regardless. i'll have to see about other schools though.

18:40 / 17.02.06

I've looked at MFA programmes in Creative Writing as well.

Heres what I have generally found.

1. It is the terminal degree in the discipline. If you want to get a doctorate then it would be in another field (I think I've found a Programme in Lit and Creative Writing at USC though). Some people have an MFA in Creative Writing and a Ph.D. in English/American Lit.

2. Its more on the practical application of the art then the underlying theories.

3. I've been told by a number of professors that it is not a 'real' academic degree. or that it is damn near impossible to get a teaching job with one unless you know someone.

Honestly, I'm looking at a Ph.D. in history right now but I might get an MFA too.

10:31 / 18.02.06

>mean bitter unpublished writers in america consider mfa programs to be nothing but networking tools.

i have a couple of friends who have spent their entire working lives making a damn good living off their networking at MBA school. most mba schools in america teach you almost nothing (i am particularly thinking of the ivy league) but make a big song and dance about how you are meeting and studying with the leaders of tomorrow etc. and the bulk of graduates go work for previous graduates, then later hire later graduates.

given that publishing in any country is more about who you know that what you can write, i would be staggered if the american MFA situation was any different.

in which case, i'd recommend you not bother too much with getting high grades etc, but make a point of networking your little arse off -- "hail fellow well met" each and every one and try to get yourself into a visible position on any social-life org. therein.

08:39 / 19.02.06

I've studied on an Mphil, the Scottish equivalent, to an MFA. I don't know if it's different to an American course,but I found that my course was about was a lot more than networking. I developed an ability to self criticise an edit my writing, things that I found, difficult, and practically impossible before studying the course.
Who you know, does help you get noticed,but the quality of your writing is still important. The people on my course who networked like mad, often looked a bit desperate, and probably should've spent more time improving their writing in order to get published.

sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q

00:22 / 20.02.06

thinking about it, the biggest thing an MFA will buy me is time. not having a full-time job will allow me to write to my heart's content, and research obscure topics i've been meaning to look at but haven't had the opportunity.

cornell's program is fully funded so i don't even have to go into debt. it's really small so not much opportunity to network. that's more of an iowa thing i think.

09:57 / 20.03.06

The programme that really impressed me was UC-Irvine.

It depends though. Would you rather focus on a programme that would help you network to get published, one that would help you advance your writing as much as 2 years can or one that would prepare you to teach at the university level?

You might get different programmes for each.

And I don't think ANY MFA in Creative Writing programme has an acceptance rate above ten percent. At least in America, not sure about other countries.

BlueThunderArmy

18:39 / 21.03.06

And I don't think ANY MFA in Creative Writing programme has an acceptance rate above ten percent.

This is what I'm running into, and it surprised the hell out me. I'm well on my way to not getting in anywhere for the second year running. My writing is good, but I want it to be better—isn't that what school is meant to be about?

They'll be sorry when I'm famous!

sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q

19:58 / 21.03.06

I've committed to Cornell since first posting. They picked four people out of somewhere around 400-500 application, so less than one percent acceptance rate. This seems to be the rate for the most competitive programs.

One thing I've learned is that while writing quality is definitely a factor, it's also very much a process-driven system. Too many people show promise, so it's important for work to be polished, even if it's not as ambitious as work-in-progress. I got ridiculously lucky.

06:51 / 22.03.06

BlueThunderArmy:

Seriously, the ones that I've seen generally have maybe a five percent acceptance rate. I'm sure the big schools like Iowa are worse.

My advice is either:

1. Apply to 20 schools. By simple math, at an average of five percent acceptance, one will take you.
And, by extention, I mean apply to as many as you can. And apply to them more then once because you can get a totally different crop the next year. Maybe you're a great historical fiction writer but they had someone who was better at it the year before.

sibyline:

Are the writing workshops in MFA programmes more dedicated to helping you to find your voice as a writer or polishing the way in which your work as seen through a voice that already exists is presented?

Do they tend to be a bit conservative and favour "safer" work in lieu of wild experimentation?

Do they try and help you find one thing that you write well and stick to it and do that really well?

sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q

13:42 / 22.03.06

I think it really depends Nolan, probably more on the person than the program. The Cornell program is quite open as far as I can tell, but of course they accept people according to certain tastes. It's not as experimental as a progam like Brown for instance. Different programs have leanings that are not completely quantifiable but are definitely there.

It's highly unlikely for a program to attempt to try to completely rebuild your voice. Given how selective they are, I"m sure they already like the voices of the people they accept in the first place. So I would say the more selective the program, the more likely they are to just guide you and help you with the aspects of your writing that need improvement. The less selective programs are probably more likely to work with a student on fundamentals.

BlueThunderArmy

02:56 / 23.03.06

Nolan:
Thanks for the advice. I was pretty confident in the net I cast this year, but as you've said there are so many factors. And I'm the first to admit there are aspects of my writing that could use some work—my feeling is that I'm somewhere between "promise" and "professional." Perhaps by this time next year I'll have progressed down that line a bit.

sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q

11:38 / 23.03.06

BlueThunder, if you end up not getting in anywhere you want to go this year, I would suggest going to a summer writers' conference if you haven't done so already, because there you'll meet a lot of people who are in these programs and also people who teach in them. It's hard to get a gauge in terms of the quality of one's work and also some of the necessary conventions that exist in these programs otherwise.

My experience was actually a pleasant surprise, since I considered myself a dabbler in fiction until I went to a conference last summer (I already have an MFA degree in visual art, and had taken one online fiction class). I came to the realization there that my work was comparable to other people who are already getting their MFA's, and also that I had technical quirks in my writing that really bothered people. So I revised and decided to apply. Less than a year later, I've been offered four years of funding just to study, teach, and most importantly write fiction. Kinda crazy, really.

BlueThunderArmy

14:41 / 12.04.06

Just got word I've been shortlisted for the U of Glasgow programme. I'll hear in early May whether I'm in or not.

Jesus Christ, this month has been full of ups and downs. Most of my grad school responses have come in (and all save this one in the negative), a book I edited was featured in an entertainment magazine, I botched a pitch to Macworld, and I'm interviewing for a job at DC Comics on Monday. The fallout in May should be fascinating.

Sorry, just had to tell someone who doesn't give a shit.

sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q

17:16 / 12.04.06

i totally give a shit. good luck! wiating to hear from a couple of journals and summer conferences right now. the applications never end!

BlueThunderArmy

18:10 / 12.04.06

Ha. Thanks!

08:57 / 20.04.06

Hi Blue Thunder, good luck with getting on the Glasgow Course, it's the one I did, and was really good.

Whisky Priestess

21:26 / 25.04.06

A hearty YAY for UEA! (I miss it so ... back in 2 wks)

But make sure you either live on campus or in the centre of town - ring-road residences are so not good.

00:11 / 26.04.06

A stab in the dark Miss Priestess, but you didn't happen to be one of the writers forced to talk at the recent UEA open day..one of em had the distinct aura of the barbeloid, I swear..

sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q

14:10 / 26.04.06

um, UEA = University of East Anglia?

14:29 / 26.04.06

Indeed

Whisky Priestess

17:47 / 26.04.06

Yes indeed, I was one of the show dogs - the slightly manic, logorrheic one with the dress made out of what looked like beige towelling.

I hope you enjoyed the open day. If not, can I say in my defence that I had just come from a three-hour class, hungover and having had very little sleep? (Tuesday night is bar-crawl night for the Prose people ...)

18:21 / 26.04.06

I knew! I knew you were a barbeloid! Ha!

The question is, I suppose, whether that's necessarily a good or bad thing..

19:00 / 26.04.06

But did you get in?

19:19 / 26.04.06

Funny thing, they e-mailed me to say they have my refs and sample piece but the form itself got lost on the interweb.
I pray this is a good omen and they already love what they see...otherwise it's re-applying after a year of artistic yet fruitful labour (any suggestions?).

BlueThunderArmy

17:46 / 02.06.06

!!!

Found out today I've been accepted to the CW course at Glasgow. Decided I'm definitely doing it, just need to sort out the details.

Any advice for relocating across an ocean? I was terrified enough when I thought I'd be driving a moving van across the US...

sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q

19:07 / 05.06.06

woah bluethunder! no relocation advice, but congratulations! i know nothing about the glasgow program. what's it like?