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Saints' Relics

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

16:53 / 13.02.06

Discussion about a Voodoo head has gotten me thinging a bit about the Catholic Saints and the cult of relics.

I know very little on the topic other then a quick googling just now and what little I have learned from the Medieval Studies majors around campus.

I was curious what people here might think about this, is it something the church nicked from older faiths to help convert people (like many of the Christmas rituals are borrowed from early paganism in various areas of Europe), or is this something they came up with all on their own.

For some quick info here is the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Relics.

Another interesting bit of relic history is the fake relic trade, which was immensly popular and lampooned in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales when a man claimed to have a saint's mitton for sale. I think (from memory) that there were also over 12 of Christ's foreskin in the 12th-15th centuries.

So, Barbelith, what is your thought on the power, if any, inherent in the bones of someone who was said to do miracles? If there is a fake pinky of John the Baptist, but people have been praying to it and kissing it for 500 years, is it still worthless, or by their worship have people imbued it with, something?

20:17 / 13.02.06

There's a great riff in Umberto Eco's Baudolino, which gets repeated quite a few times, about the belief making the relic genuine. The main character, at one point, is traveling with eight heads of John the Baptist, trying to recover his father's wooden wine cup that he'd convinced people was actually the Holy Grail (and thus, in its own way, became so).

The official Church position has always been something along the same line -- as long as it increases devotion to Our Lord without becoming an idol unto itself, then it's OK.

There's some famous line about there being enough fragments of the true cross to build 12 crosses, but I can't remember it.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

21:47 / 13.02.06

I have been meaning to read Baudolino for about a year, loved Name of The Rose and Foucaults Pendulum.

23:51 / 13.02.06

of course the xians nicked it from somewhere else... everything in the big 3 religions (xianity,islam,jewish) are nicked from somewhere else...

I do find the fake relics more fun and alot more intresting from a magic point of wiew. being into chaosmagic it doesnt matter if its real or not just as long as you belive in it hard enough...

now i wanna learn how to make my own relics... i would realy dig to getahold of King Arthurs right hand... a finger would be enough...

00:21 / 14.02.06

If it's ok with you Elijah, i'd like to open this thread out a bit and look at the general idea of using human remains as a religious or magical aid or tool or whatever. It's something i'm interested in but i'm not that familiar with a lot of historical Catholic stuff so i'll just babble about Egypt a bit.

Egypt has a lot of history with carting dead humans about the world and has a huge amount of baggage that goes with it. The word 'Mummy', that a lot of us read with visions of a staggering monster covered in bandages, is derived from the Arabic word 'mūmiyyah' and also from the Persian 'mūmiya', both of which refer to a black, waxy, burned substance. A lot like the remains of (or the preserved remains) animals. When Egypt was in some ways 'introduced' to the West (and i want to make a point about the history of history here... there are some fantastic books coming out at the moment that deal with the history and archaeology of Egypt coming from, and looking, at the writings of Egyptian and predominantly Islamic writers from the last few hundred years...something that has been overlooked horribly) after Napolean, there was a huge amount of human remains going from country to country.

Now, a lot of these larger remains went to Museums and private collectors, but there was a huge industry set up for wealthy western peoples to buy small samples (i:e- bags of 'Mummy') for their own use. Superstitions stuff mainly. For some reason, the biggest intake of 'Mummey' in the UK was Scotland. Don't know what to make of the figures with that apart that maybe there was a huge importer in Scotland at the time. The trade in 'Mummy' still goes on in occult circles. For a lot of money as well.

Well, I’ve gone massivly off thread. Sorry Elijah if I’ve de-railed it somewhat.

There are some really interesting thoughts to come from this. One, of course, is just the general idea that Human remains, be it from some pre-conceived 'powerful' source like a Saint or a Pharoah' or just 'anybody' could have any sort of gain to a modern day to day practice. I'm inclined to say yes. There are all sorts of benefits to be had from getting in touch with 'the past' with what you are doing. I'm being a bit flippant. Seth posted about the taboo of death (or somthing like it)in the mouldy head thread.

00:32 / 14.02.06

Sorry...posted before i was finished!...What i was thinking about was Seths thoughts of Taboo and Death. There is so much in that. I'm sure that there has been another thread talking about this, but to be honest i'm a bit too drunk to seek it out.

12:16 / 14.02.06

Of course, in Egypt at the time of the big mummy-exporting boom they were being used as firewood....

I love old European churches (as witnessed in the Catholicism, Wow! thread), and I especially love reliquaries, the ornate gold boxes, bowls, busts or cases used to store & display relics.

Like:

Bits of St. Ludmila inside!

And

The Reliquary of St. Anthony of Padua, including a special container for his incorrupt tongue,

and, above, another bust for his jaw and incorrupt larynx.

From the Basilica of St. Anthony website:

(emphasis theirs)

We must instead focus on the most prestigious relics of St. Anthony which are in the central niche. The Saint’s tongue (in the centre). Do not expect it to be a tongue which is bright red in colour. It is still however an inexplicable fact, given that it is a very fragile part of the body that is usually among the first parts to disintegrate after death. More than 770 years have passed since St. Anthony died and this tongue is a perennial miracle, unique in history and full of religious significance, a seal marking the work of re-evangelisation of society carried out by the Saint.

This might seem a little grisly, and it is -- but it's a logical outgrowth of the memento mori in Christian art -- the reminder that we're mortal and death comes to us all. (You can hear another survival of this theme in the recently trendy bluegrass song "O, Death," that was covered by Camper Van Beethoven in the late 80s and appeared on the 2002 Grammy-winning O, Brother, Where Art Thou? soundtrack.)

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

13:58 / 14.02.06

Ghadis, no derailment as far as I am concerned, interesting info.

Reliquaries are indeed one of the coolest looking/disturbing things the Catholic Church has to offer I think.

I did a little research last night and found an interesting bit of info. Apparently during the middle ages it was common practice to "charge" your own relics. The basic idea was you would take a piece of cloth (i assume cloth was used because there was little fear of it being stolen) and leave it on the tomb of a saint or martyr for a period of time (usually about a day I think) and then when you collected it it would have had some of the saintly goodness transferred to it. This seems very very "magic-y" to me, more so then a lot of the things the Catholics have done over the years.

This is easily one of the more interesting things my medievalist friends talk about.

14:09 / 14.02.06

Read the chapter on the medeival church in Keith Thomas' "Religion and the decline of magic". At a local level, pre-Reformation Catholicism was a full-on magico-religious tradition comparable to something like Santeria.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

14:20 / 14.02.06

Complete with Gods in saints' clothing.

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

16:15 / 14.02.06

Ah, shit! GL...I picked that book up at a book stall near where I live, but didn't buy it for some reason...was in a hurry I think.