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Underground > Creation >

I'm not entirely sure about...

  
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
14:18 / 10.02.06
Sort of in response to matt's complaint about the general deaditude of the Creation. The idea here is to make a place for the discussion and critique of those projects you finish and then are never quite satisfied with. In that there might be more movement if there's several simultaneous critiques going on at once, rather than in different threads each. Or something...

Anyway, I'll start.

I've recorded this song (4.17mb mp3 file), and I'm extremely unsure about it. It's meant to be a sort of live mashup between the Righteous Brothers' "You lost that lovin' feelin'", and Hawkwind's "Spirit of the Age", because the production on the former always struck me as making the song sound like it was being sung by a lonely astronaut, and the tragedy of the latter always affected me quite a bit. Also, they both rely on consecutive chords throughout, which makes the vocal lines sort of blend. However, although I'm happy with the a capella (sort of) section, the verse vocals are...sort of dodgy. They're meant to be simultatneously spacey and vulnerable, and I'm not sure if that comes across. Also, various qualms about arrangement that are far too tedious to go into at length.
So: What do you make of it, and do you have any projects you're unable to come to a conclusion on?
 
 
Chiropteran
13:17 / 13.02.06
Overall, I like the track. I'm with you on the "Loving" verse vocals, though - they do sound both spacey and vulnerable, but they are a little indistinct, or maybe inexact, especially on some of the high notes and ornaments. Like there wasn't quite enough breath support to hold up the emotion, if you know what I mean. It's similar to (or is) that fine line you walk when playing pianissimo espressivo, where it has to sound like it's so soft and plaintive as as to be barely audible, but it still needs to have enough "core" to cut through the accompaniment and reach the back of the hall. The chorus and acapella bit do this better. (Also, I like the delivery on the "Spirit" verse, but it could probably be mixed a little higher.)

That said, it doesn't "not work" very much - or, to flip that around for clarity, it still actually works pretty well. The more I listen to it (it's on repeat as I type), the less I notice - and, admittedly, your post primed me to listen for the "dodgy" vocals the first time through. The spare instrumental arrangement is very appropriate to your stated intent.

Always glad to hear new material from you.
 
 
Chiropteran
14:22 / 17.02.06
I wrote something a while back that I'm not entirely sure about. I'm too close to it to make the kind of evaluation I need, and I'd like a fresh set of eyes:

Mooncalf

This piece was very explicitly an experiment, in that I had no idea if it was going to work or not. My intention was to see what would happen if I tried to translate the idiosyncratic use of language in my poetry into prose, to tell (what is hopefully) an intelligible and enjoyable story. The linked selection is only the introduction to what could eventually be a longer work (in other words, this is not a complete narrative arc), if I decide it's a worthwhile effort.

Notes:

- I will almost certainly scrap the "fairytale" prologue paragraph. Never really liked it, anyway.

- My earlier poetry was semi-automatic writing, with some strange (strained) syntax and a lot of alliteration. My later poetry was usually drawn from heavily-edited cutups. Both styles are used here, the latter mainly in the bracketed asides, a different 'voice'.

- I wanted to contrast the 'scattershot' style of the prose with excessively formal, fairytale-ish dialogue. I'm not sure, in hindsight, if I was just being 'clever,' or if the effect is worthwhile. What do you think?

- If alliteration makes you spit blood, turn back now.

I'm looking for a couple things:

1) Is this even intelligible? I mean, can you follow what's happening? As the writer, I know what's going on, so it's hard to judge how well it translates.

2) If the unconventional sentence structure, etc., is intelligible, is it worth it? That is, can it be enjoyed as a kind of prose-poetry - appreciating the language for its own sake - or is it just unnecessarily abstruse, and an unrewarding slog?

"Experimental" fiction and unconventional language, at its best, can be exhilarating and challenging. That said, James Joyce I am not. Be gentle if you can, but more importantly, be honest.

Thanks!
 
 
Sniv
10:49 / 18.02.06
Withiel - I really dug that mix actually. It was one of the most disturbing things I've heard for ages. I'm not too familiar with both of the original songs you were referencing (beyond the pop-culture-detritus of Loving feeling), but are those the original vocals, or yours? Either way, I like them. They do sound very fragile, like the singer's been crying a lot and then recorded the song, and obviously most of this effect has come from the manipulation of the vocals, which I like a lot.

I think the sketchy quality of the vocals at the start of the song, combined with the glitchy, antique electronic effects help the song, rather than detract from it. They make the listener focus and attempt to pick out the words, drawing them in.

It's cool in that the song is it's own thing, like the best mash-ups, in this case, it sounds kinda like HAL's just been dumped, but I like that. If anything, you should go further, fuck the vocals up even more, make them snarly and distorty, draw out the creepy, obsessive-stalker elements that your mix has introduced. Or not. Good work though, even if you don't think so yourself.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
21:35 / 18.02.06
Yeah, that was good, that, Withiel. Again, I'm not familiar enough with the original songs to rate it in those terms, but it was disturbing and poignant. Made me think of a film of the PK Dick android falling slowly apart, bits hitting the floor, sparks in slow motion, with no sound except for this song.
 
 
Chiropteran
12:07 / 28.02.06
I'd like a fresh set of eyes

Nobody?
 
 
TeN
21:21 / 28.02.06
i'd read it, but the link is broken for me
 
 
Chiropteran
00:52 / 01.03.06
Oh dear, um... *checks* It's working for me, right now (I think my site went wonky earlier - I wasn't getting my mail, either).
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
01:08 / 02.03.06
Thanks to everyone who posted about the song above - I now feel considerably more sure about the aforementioned recording, and have grown to actually like it (especially when the PK Dick android image pops into my head - I like the idea of it as part of a film).

Secondly, many apologies to you, Lepidopteran- life has been Happening to me again, so I've been unable to comment for a bit. However:

I really, really liked "Mooncalf", and didn't think that the prose was too intrusive at all - in fact, I rather liked the way that, it's unclear what the precise morphology of the Painter is, for example. I reallly *enjoyed* some of the more self-knowing use of bizarre descriptive language ("protean protheses"), and the contrast between the very long and short, broken sentences gives the piece its own jolty, idiosyncratic rhythm. There's also a real sense of a wider world which can be explored and escaped into (albeit one designed by a Nick Cave high on transhumanism and Dave McKean), and the "singing toward the deepest dark" has a sense of bittersweet journeying and freedom to it that really strikes a chord. It's definitely intelligible, and I do think that the prose style is "worth it" - I'd be very dubious about a version of the story that *didn't* have the charmingly macabre, opaque and archaic language. In a way, it's very reminiscent of Mervyn Peake and China Miéville, which is in my eyes very high praise indeed.

Having said/gushed all that, I'm a bit nonplussed by the formatting: having adopted a highly poetic and internally formal tone, it seems a bit of a waste to have the whole thing in long lines with paragraph breaks: the first paragraph, for example, if broken up at the half-rhymes, would seem a lot more Dunsanian and would then it with the archaic dialogue. But then again, that might not might be your intention - I can't help seeing it in a sort of fin-de-siecle aesthetic context, possibly because all the moon-business reminds me of Wilde's Salome.

Basically, I really, really like it (with a couple of really minor reservations), and would like to know more about the world it's set in and the thoughts behind the piece.
 
 
Chiropteran
18:44 / 02.03.06
Withiel, thank you (and also Skeleton Camera, who shared hir opinion off-board). High praise, indeed! Thus encouraged, I think I am going to resume work on the piece (though I have all but finally decided to scrap my original outline). Your comment about the formatting intrigues me, and I think I'm going to play around with that a little.

Re: "thoughts behind the piece," I was actually inspired, in large part, by Erik Davis's essay on Lee Perry and Dub, even though I hadn't listened to any dub at time of reading (a condition since remedied; dub featured big in my writing music, alongside Tom Waits). My approach to the world of Mooncalf, as reflected in its language, was inspired by passages like "[Dub] proclaims a primary postmodern law: there is no original, no first ground, no homeland. By mutating its repetitions of previously used material, dub adds something new and distinctly uncanny, vaporizing into a kind is doppelganger music. Despite the crisp attack of its drums and the heaviness of its bass, it swoops through empty space, spectral and disembodied." The world through which Mooncalf moves is like the self-sustaining echo of a missing sound or the afterimage of a light that went out before we opened our eyes, so that the effect is less descriptive than evocative.

As an aside, W, I think you probably would've enjoyed my old group, Kaecyy and the Deadly Nightshade Band. Our frontbeing, Space Commander Kaecyy, wrote lyrics very much in the spirit of your juxtaposition - particularly "Plastic Flesh, Beating Heart," as sung by an aging scientist to hir gleaming android lover (old hat for Hawkwind fans, perhaps, but a pleasant alternative to vampires for our late-90's Goth/Deathrock squad).
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
00:16 / 06.03.06
Lepidopteran: Your old band sounds fantastic - there isn't, by any chance, some way in which it's still possible to procure any recordings of the aforesaid music?
In a non-rotty direction, I'm very interested in the "Dub approach to mythology" angle on the "Mooncalf" piece: it explains, quite possibly, why I see it as referencing my favourite writers while being a disparate entity from their various bodies of work: it's a sort of palimpsest or carbon paper, taking and subtly merging impressions from a number of sources. This makes the "automatic writing" angle make a lot more sense in context - the method of writing reflects the ethos's attitude to existing complexes of culture. Or something.

Anyone else want to have a go? There should be More Critique in the Creation, dammit.
 
 
Chiropteran
18:55 / 23.02.07
I've got another one I'm Not Quite Sure About (NQSA):

Brotherhood [Edit: link removed]

There are some instant objections to the piece: it's all telling, no showing; there's really not much story, just a string of reminiscence, etc. I feel like it works nonetheless, but it's different enough from the "tightly plotted stories with memorable characters" that a lot of magazines ask for that I'm nervous about sending it around. I actually had something rather specific in mind as a model, but I'll save that until some of you have read it.

I'm also NQSA the ending, which has changed drastically over several drafts (the latest not 15 minutes ago).

So, kind readers, what say you? And thank you, in advance.
 
 
Chiropteran
19:07 / 23.02.07
(One thing that bothers me, reading over the story again, is that I talk about the dwindling supplies but I never mention concerns over what will happen to the electric fence when the fuel for the generators runs out. But where to put it?)
 
 
Chiropteran
17:20 / 02.03.07
A week later, and I'm still not sure.

Or: *bump*
 
 
Crestmere
05:52 / 05.03.07
I was thiking about writing a comedy about two incompetent terrorists.

At the start, they try to do a suicide bombing but they can't afford real explosives so they have to use fireworks. And then they mess is up and people think they are entertainment so they end up on the run from the other terrorists and law enforcement.

And its a white guy who is totally gung ho about killing infidels and an arab who has his doubts.
 
 
Janean Patience
07:05 / 05.03.07
And its a white guy who is totally gung ho about killing infidels and an arab who has his doubts.

I actually really like the idea of that dynamic.
 
 
Crestmere
09:04 / 05.03.07
I tried it a few years ago and I only got about 40 pages in.

Its really rough going because the dynamic either ends up too dark (like freaking Se7en dark) and not comical at all or it ends up bieng like a Tom and Jerry cartoon and completely overlooking the fact that blowing yourself up to get in to heaven isn't bloody funny.

Originally, i wanted to go for something like Saved but now I'm thinking I want less dark comedy and more out and out comedy. By showing the absurdity of everything, maybe I can point out just how stupid terrorism is.

Any suggestions? PM me because I really need some help on this.
 
 
Chiropteran
14:32 / 05.03.07
Nolan, I like the idea. I can imagine it being very very funny, but it would also be so easy to make it go very very wrong... I can't really make any specific suggestions without seeing what you've got, but I do hope you'll keep working on it - it's an idea that's worth developing.
 
 
Cowboy Scientist
17:37 / 05.03.07
I had this idea for a comic called "Atom Heartbreak" that I never developed... its a romantic comedy that goes like this:
Mad Scientist (R) is about to die from some terminal disease, and since he's never been loved and wants to punish the world for it, he creates this robot/android/whatever boy that looks like him in his teenage years; and when this boy suffers his first heartbreak, his nuclear heart will explode destroying a big chunk of the world. The scientist dies and the boy is set loose in the world, thinking he's a real kid, etc.
After a while, he falls in love with this sorta punkish girl that wants nothing to do with him (remember, he's like the scientist when he was a teenager, so he's a big geek). Just when she was about to tell him that, she's contacted by a secret agency (sort of Steranko's SHIELD; with the mandatory Nick Fury/Dirk Anger figure). They tell her about the situation, so she has to play along with the robot boy, at least till they discover a way to desactivate him.

It was supossed to be written in a "Warren-Ellis-meets-Shöjo" way. I don't know if I will end up writing the thing or not, right now I'm both writing and illustrating another project.
 
 
Crestmere
23:50 / 19.03.07
Heat Vision, thts an awesome idea.
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
11:24 / 09.07.07
I'm Very Unsure about: this.

It's meant to be a cover of Roxy Music's "Remake/Remodel", inspired by the rather sexy Berlin performance (Youtube link). The idea is to bring out the Eno influence a bit more (due to being utterly bowled over by the retro-synth solos), especially by putting it into other tracks (such as the drum loops) in an attempt to purge some of the 70s-rockist stylings. Also, adding in a bit of Cave-esque vocal and electroclash.

HOWEVER.

Almost everyone who's been played it hates it (apart from the bloke who's going to remix it). This has distressed me quite a bit, and I'm no longer sure quite what I've perpetrated (a feeling I always get while recording, but that normally goes away after a few weeks).

THEREFORE:

If anyone's got any idea either why they should like it, or indeed what's wrong with it, then do tell. Because I've no idea.
 
 
Chiropteran
02:58 / 10.07.07
Well, I certainly don't hate it, but I agree that there's something not quite there about it. I like each of the sounds/elements individually, but I think the mix is kinda busy, with a lot of sounds in a relatively narrow frequency range, so it blurs together into cacophony. Also, there are a couple places where the synchronization falters a little bit, which is an interesting effect when the mix is thinner but, again, makes the full mix even more nervous.

I wouldn't say that it doesn't work at all, but it might benefit from a retread - maybe bringing some of the synths down further into the midrange?
 
 
iamus
20:41 / 10.07.07
I really like it, but the best way I can describe it (without the techy knowhow) is that it needs more room to breathe.

Which is probably exactly what Chiropteran just said but less useful.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
01:32 / 11.07.07
i feel that maybe you should try singing it differently, experimenting with how you actually sing. right now its sounding like an impersonation. you can sing the same song, but you should sing it completely in your voice, whatever that is. now it sounds to me like an eno impersonation instead of a cover coming from the heart.

the clash of the synth sounds and lofi instrumentation is a cool direction to go in, and some bits of the mix sound as if the white light / white heat era VU had electronics. but agree with everyone that the mix is too busy and thick in the same frequency. its weird how some of it sounds very technically clean and someof it is lofi. is the lofi on purpose or is it the result of how you are recording it?
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
13:04 / 08.09.07
Again, thanks to everyone for writing words about the sounds, and renewed apologies for lack of reply - criticisms accepted and taken on board: the drum-synch issue, for example, was meant to come out like Simon King's work on Here Come The Warm Jets - coming in and out of synch with the music in a fairly natural way. Which I now see can't be done with a drum-machine without some really heavy time-stretchy effects that, frankly, probably aren't worth it in this case. Mystery Gypt - interesting comments on the vocals, as I was really trying to go for more of a Nick Cave-style intonation (possibly I have been listening to too much Brian Eno). Also, the lo-fi issue is a difficult one - partly personal choice (especially on guitar and piano tracks, to which I tend to add endless layers of distortion and fake LP crackle effects), but also sadly unavoidable because my recording equipment is horrifically primitive by financial necessity. To be honest, I think this is something that I am now Sure about - that is to say, I'm sure it needs to be redone. Having relistened to the live version (which is here by the way), I think the backbone of it is the sax part, so I'll probably be redoing it with a solo clarinet high in the mix, and less...mannered vocals. Therefore, thanks to everyone for feedback, because it is Really Good for creative process.

Chiropteran: I didn't think there was anything wrong with "Brotherhood" at all, to be honest: the atmosphere of the creepy and inexplicable (although "creepy" is too soft a word - I'm just trying to avoid mentioning bloody Lovecraft again) combined with the tragicomic pathos of the monsters themselves creates enough momentum for any technical difficulties to be pretty much swept away, to overextend a metaphor. Great first line, fantastic, understated ending. I'll stop gushing now, but in short, yes.

Heat Vision: that sounds great. I now really, really want to draw it. Although I do have a Pavlovian reaction to the mention of Steranko. Clever mix of awful impending doom and cute relationship stuff. Which is the point, I assume, but it works.

Finally, I've got yet another track that I'm NQSA.
(Seriously, if people think I'm just spamming the thread I'll stop doing it and suffer creative indecision in Barbe-silence).
It's called "Insect Heresy Metaphor Blues", and can be found here. (apologies for myspace link - I don't have access to my hosting at the moment). It's meant to be a song about escaping from a terrible controlling relationship/insidious insect empire/oppressive state or all of the above, and it's in a sort of mishmash of styles. One of the many things I'm Not Quite Sure About is what genre, if any, it might be described as. Another of those is whether it's complete and utter wank or not. Any help would be greatly appreciated, because I'm not sure whether to be quietly pleased or horrendously embarrassed.
 
 
Chiropteran
12:48 / 09.09.07
Withiel: wow, thanks!

I'll take a listen to Insect Heresy Metaphor Blues (the title of which has inexplicably made me think of the Stanford Prison Experiment every time I've seen it) and report back.
 
 
Chiropteran
04:16 / 11.09.07
Withiel: I love the bass entrance at about 3:40.

The song is solid; I have no reservations about it, whatsoever. In fact, I'd put it alongside Forget-Me-Not as my picks of the Fearful Symmetries songs.

That said... stepping back for a moment, I can see how some listeners might be put off by the increasingly liberated approach to ensemble playing that develops at around 2:50. That sort of playful chaos is familiar from your solo work, but if I recall, there's not so much of it in the other Fearful Symmetries songs I've heard (Too Pretty To Live, etc.), so someone hearing it for the first time in that context may wonder what's happened to the straight-ahead stomp of the beginning.

Would you mind posting the lyrics?
 
 
Chiropteran
18:34 / 11.09.07
Update: after a little bit of minor tweaking, I've submitted Brotherhood to a horror/"dark fantasy" magazine. I'll let you know how it goes.
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
13:44 / 12.09.07
Lyrics:

I see power lines
-Roadside café helpless in the dimming day
I see motorway signs
-I've not seen you for thirteen days
-It's about time for a parting of the ways and I'm

Out of here, I'm all above your insects,
I'm the apostate of man
I'm the apostate in Bedlam

-I'm all caught up between the hummingbird and the hive
Your wasp-faced justice don't want me alive
-The hummingbird and the hive,
Carapace carapace keep the pace I don't know where you're going
-I look into the sky, I look into the sky,
And I dive

Got my weapon
In my hand
-Calling O calling out for the world I left behind,
I am not a warrior but I've not got an alibi
-Caught up in this metaphor I've got no charts to go by,

I'm away from here and your liturgy of buzzing
I'm a heretical man and I've got a holy plan,



-I'm all caught up between the hummingbird and the hive
Your wasp-faced justice don't want me alive
-The hummingbird and the hive,
Carapace carapace keep the pace I don't know where you're going
-I look into the sky, and I dive,
And I dive

I'm all alone and my boots are broken down
I am very cold and I can't find my way
I ask a man in the village shop if he might help
His mandibled face tells me what I need to know
aa-aaaaay, aa-aaay

I'm out of here, I'm all above your insects,
I'm the apostate of man
I'm the apostate in Bedlam
I'm away from here and your liturgy of buzzing
I'm a heretical man and I've got a holy plan,

-I'm on my way
With the sight of giants
-I'm on my way
With the claws of birds
-I'm on my way
With the arms of mountains
-I'm on my way
--With a terror-tread, terror-tread.


Interesting idea - I've always seen the Symmetries stuff to be more "challenging", with more emphasis on difficult harmonies and horrible noises - like, for example, the end of Voluntary Jetsam. Anyway, this is the Featured Song on the local Oxfordshire chart thing today, so we'll see how it does...
 
 
Chiropteran
14:42 / 12.09.07
The end of Voluntary Jetsam does have the challenging sonics, but the timing is still tight, which is what I'm talking about. In the relevant section of IHMB, it's the beat that starts to disintegrate, before the bass asserts itself and takes the song in hand. It's a great moment, really: the guitars start phasing out of synch with the pulse in an unsettling way ("deprivileging the beat," we like to call it), chaos threatens, there's what sounds like a brief rally with a newly centered groove that instead just trails off, giving the listener just time to think, "would've been nice if it had just-" then whoomp, the bass is back. I'll be embarrassed, of course, if this turns out to be unintentional, but I think it's a great effect.

Thanks for posting the lyrics, too.
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
23:44 / 10.10.07
Chiropteran - I just actually got around to /reading/ your post (computer issues again), and I am, quite frankly, stunned that someone else knows what's going on there. You, sir, are a musical scholar and a gentleperson of repute.

Might post a couple more tracks from the next solo album, which is the covers one (although about a third originals, proportionally). Then it's onto the next one, which is going to be a soundtrack to a musical. It's called !LOVETERRORIST!. It's got four romantic leads and a love dodecahedron. Mystic guitars, police chorus, multiple leitmotifs. I am going to die.
 
  
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