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Runes, tarot, language and reality

 
 
Naked Flame
13:07 / 22.02.02
quote: There's a similarity here with Cabala, as I'm sure you're all well aware. The Hebrew word for 'thing' (is it daleth?) also means 'word', and I think is a letter of the alphabet. No doubt it also has an esoterically significant numerical value.

Point being, the notion of words, symbols, and reality being missible or interchangeable runs across cultures. The principles of sympathy and contagion...hence the Judaic tradition avoids writing or saying the word God (G'd). The tradition leaks down into notions of blasphemy and not saying the name of an evil thing (The Devil, sickness, misfortune) lest it come to you.


Been meaning to talk about this since the rune-library thing got started.

I've worked extensively with both tarot and runes over the last ten years. My headspace is such that I can use them pretty much interchangeably... in fact, I can 'read' anything if I look at it the right way. But Nick's post got me thinking afresh about the differences between systems that I cheerfully skate over in my practice.

Those of you who know tarot/qabbalah know that you can reduce all 78 cards to a pair of influences: numbers/spheres on the one hand, and elements on the other. Thus, the major arcana represent the paths between spheres, the number cards are the interaction of an element with a sphere, and the court cards are the interaction of elements. There's an extremely coherent and systematic cosmology inherent in tarot, and this ties directly into language, as each point in that cosmological space is understood as vibrating with the original sound that spoken language is understood to imitate. The whole, the Tree of Life, is a structure that extends through multiple levels of consciousness and reality and provides an armature upon which to sculpt reality. Pretty spiffy.

On the other hand, we have the runes, which are IMO far more directly tied into language and don't exhibit the same structural perfection, but still provide a set of tools for the same job.

So, the question is this. Given that both the runes and the tarot are effective mechanisms for describing and creating reality, and given that they appear to be, structurally, radically different, how do we reconcile the differences in the systems? Are we talking about co-existent magical realities, or two ways of describing the same thing? Can we locate the runes in the qabbalistic model, or vice versa? If we manage any of this, can we start integrating other systems into this and create a metacosmology that embraces a larger universe than yesterdays?

hmmm.
 
 
Rev. Wright
15:03 / 22.02.02
quote: So, the question is this. Given that both the runes and the tarot are effective mechanisms for describing and creating reality, and given that they appear to be, structurally, radically different, how do we reconcile the differences in the systems? Are we talking about co-existent magical realities, or two ways of describing the same thing? Can we locate the runes in the qabbalistic model, or vice versa? If we manage any of this, can we start integrating other systems into this and create a metacosmology that embraces a larger universe than yesterdays?


From my perspective, all systems paint a very similar system. Propp's universality of narrative, points to this, and language was invented to communicate and tell stories. So there should be correlation between the sytsems/language as there is in the narrative/philosophy

As Lothar will point out, the similarities in Medicine Lore, the basic elements. These are the core structures or building blocks of civilisation. Thus the common core to language.

That is why I have liked Chaos Magick so, it unites the systems in its condemnation of them.
 
 
cusm
15:20 / 22.02.02
Well, Yggdrasil is pretty clearly the tree of life. It extends through all levels of reality, touches all the realms etc. The only difference is, the Norse are a bit more literal in representig it as an actual tree, the Ash.

Freya Aswyn makes an interesting comparason between the Norse realms and the spheres. Not direct, but there are enough of them for the system to translate. She also shows how some of the runes line up with the spheres, by placing all the non-invertable runes as representative of spheres. There are, incidently, 9 realms and 9 uninvertable runes.

If you really want, you can probably go back over the Eddas and find an appropriate 10th to patch it. I mean, its all a bit hazy as to what was where. You might list Bifrost (the rainbow bridge) as a sphere even, for example, or one of the many halls.

24 Fu|>ark, 23 paths of wisdom. There is a lot here to play with.

I'll probably have more to say about it once I finish the stack of books I'm currently going through. Aah, for a month off from responsibilities to cram on the subjects I love!
 
 
ciarconn
01:52 / 24.02.02
I think the runes describe phases of a process and states in it, (similar to the I Ching, which describes the phases of a cosmic cycle). This cosmic cycle/process can be distinguished as the relationships between the Spheres/cards. If it's not clear, can write more latter, I'm falling asleep right now
 
 
Naked Flame
01:52 / 24.02.02
quote: Chaos Magick... unites the systems in its condemnation of them.



Nicely put. Very.

I have a feeling, though, that while CM's condemnation/embracing of systems allows for the widest range of experience, it limits how far you can go within any given paradigm (other than CM, obviously) and doesn't seem to provide a route to the sort of integration I'm looking for. The further you go with CM, the more you can do but the less you 'know'- instagnosis on the mutability of truth aside, for me this is a percieved limitation with CM as it stands at the mo.

cusm's ideas on how to integrate runes and tarot are good, and there's some instant correspondences popping up that hadn't occured to me. I'd be very interested to see both this and ciarconn's I Ching thing taken further... ciarconn, are you suggesting that we might imagine the hexagrams as 'paths between paths?' some replication, and some 'shortcuts' within the tree of life paradigm?

indeed, are we all taking the tree of life as a 'primary' and theorising around that? why? it might be right, but... why?
 
 
ciarconn
00:20 / 25.02.02
My jead almost popped when I read your post and your question. I rarely get to think so hard.

I might stick my foot in my mouth, because I am not speciailized in the Caballah, so, if I make a mistake, feel very free to correct me, I am here to learn from all of you.

Through 64 phases, the I Ching describes the cosmic flow of events, which metaphorically can describe everything and anything. The divination part allows one to see how are things in THIS moment; the wisdom part allows one to understand how things will go after now.

The three of life, as I understand, describes a process of (almost neoplatonic) emanation which can be interpreted in many ways, both descendant: the creation of the universe, the mind sustaining the reality, etc. , and ascendant: the progress the soul must follow to achieve "enlightenment", the alchemical basis of immortality...

The runes, set in the right (relative) order would do something like the I Ching: describe the steps in a sequence (of nature)

So we are talking about two diferent schemes used to understand processes of reality

(taking a break to chomp an oreo with nutella) (no, two of them)

So, both the I ching and the runes (in order) should be able to describe the steps of the progresion from sphere to sphere, and/or from bottom to top of the tree.

I am going to sleep now. If I think something better, I'll post.
 
 
Tamayyurt
02:39 / 25.02.02
Great thread. I think I'll just watch cause I don't know enough to join in. Thanks for the learnin' though.

quote: The Hebrew word for 'thing' (is it daleth?) also means 'word', and I think is a letter of the alphabet.

Flame on- Can I get a pic (or a link to a pic) of this word/letter?
 
 
Rev. Wright
07:38 / 25.02.02
quote: I have a feeling, though, that while CM's condemnation/embracing of systems allows for the widest range of experience, it limits how far you can go within any given paradigm (other than CM, obviously) and doesn't seem to provide a route to the sort of integration I'm looking for. The further you go with CM, the more you can do but the less you 'know'- instagnosis on the mutability of truth aside, for me this is a percieved limitation with CM as it stands at the mo.



Attempting not generate thread rot, but.
I found CM released me from previous stagnation, but does not go the whole hog, personally. It allowed me to continue my spontaneous tradition, and helped me validate my experiments into Medicine lore/ Wounded healing by stripping away much illusion between traditions. This is my forte and I am developing a personal 'post modern' tradition, attempting to assemble a more universal tradition. CM helped the ground work.
I'll post more of my idea, when time permits.
 
 
Naked Flame
08:15 / 25.02.02
imp- the quote was from Nick and I'm not up on my Hebrew, but this may help, as may this...
 
 
cusm
14:49 / 25.02.02
Will, nicely put. That sings with a lot of where I've been/am going. CM broke me, so I could actually start to learn and find my own way.

Now, to ward off threadrot, here are some things to consider:

I-Ching = 64 = 8 x 8
Runes = 24 = 8 x 3

I've been playing a bit with breaking the runes into 4 aetts of 6 rather than the traditional 3 of 8, so as to assign quarters and elements to each aette. Since there are 6 in each, one could draw a hexigram of each element with them. The Hexigram is a powerful key to the tree of life, symbolizing the planets around Tipharet (the sun) and used as such in ritual. As well, seeing each part of the tree 4 times (once from each element's perspective) is another common approach, and the system behind mapping the minor arcana to the spheres in the Golden Dawn.

Alternately, you can jump to the Armenian interpretation of the runes, where they form a complete system by forming the world crystal. I'll note the Armenian runes consist of 18 runes, which would make 3 aetts of 6. Hmm...

[ 25-02-2002: Message edited by: cusm ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
15:10 / 25.02.02
I'm not a big Tarot expert so my impressions are those of a very beginning journeyman.

My impressions regarding the Tarot's relationship with the Futhark is that while the Futhark deals with big primal and universal energies the Tarot deals with how those energies work specifically within the realm of human existence.

The Tarot to me seems more humanocentric while the Futhark seems to deal with energies that exists whether we (as humans) do or not.

The I Ching strikes me as more like the Futhark than the Tarot but I don't really feel confident saying that for certain as a Westerner who doesn't speak their language or really understand the ontologies that formed the I Ching. I suspect a lot is lost from the I Ching by way of English translation.
 
 
cusm
00:13 / 26.02.02
I'll tell you what. As fun as it is an excercise, I really dislike the overused tactic in occultism of attempting to unify all systems into one through their escoteric relations. I mean, if you want that, there are enough tables of correspondance in 777 to keep you busy for a lifetime.

I think each system that is complete is valid on its own, and while some references can be made, they do work in diffrerent ways and do not directly match up. The whole is diminished by it.

That aside, a friend of mine has a Norse tarot deck, which retells the tarot in the perspective of the runes and Gods of Norse Mythology. It looks like tarot, clubs you over the head with a mallet like the runes. Very nice. That sort of thing I dig. All this over comparisons between systems I don't think is necessary.

(*goes back to comparing futhark to major arcana and numerical systems between 24 and 64 with combinations of 8, 6, and 3, with hexigrams made of runes and suits of aetts, looses track of days*)

But like I said, its still awfully fun.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
00:47 / 26.02.02
I hear ya. As I've said in other threads, Viva la Difference (yes... I know my french STILL sucks )

I think the 'proof in the pudding' thing for me in regards to the separateness of the systems is in divination.

For myself, I've found that different systems work better for different types of questions.

Questions that I would use tarot for I won't use Runes or I Ching for. Same for the other two. They aren't the same.

I'm a big Edred Thorsson fan but his likening the nine realms of Yggdrasil to Kabbalah and the tree of life in Runelore made me roll my eyes.
 
 
cusm
01:30 / 26.02.02
Aye. I'm in the middle of reading that one now.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
05:21 / 26.02.02
It has always struck me that both systems derive from early shamanic systems. The Tree and the horse. The tree of life is the axis mundi where the shaman climbs up and down to reach the otherlands. Just as a drum is frequently referred to as a shamans horse ygg'sdrasil is sometimes referred to as odin's horse. Odin hanging himself on the tree is a death/rebirth ritual and like a shaman he brings something back to help the "community". The Hebrew letters are considered keys to the divine powers in much the same way that runes are. The qabalah is just farther away from the shamanic roots.

But that just my opinion.
 
 
Naked Flame
08:29 / 26.02.02
quote: I'll tell you what. As fun as it is an excercise, I really dislike the overused tactic in occultism of attempting to unify all systems into one through their escoteric relations....

I think each system that is complete is valid on its own, and while some references can be made, they do work in diffrerent ways and do not directly match up. The whole is diminished by it.


Ahah. Threadmeat.

Most of us are assuming that these disparate systems describe the same universe. cusm and Lothar, you appear to be arguing that they don't: care to expand on that? It seems to me that there's a valid idea in there with some pretty profound implications as to the nature of these systems and their components: surely, if the systems are truly plural, we have multiple co-existent universes in which the Futhark sun is actually a separate entity to the Qabalistic sun, and so on. That's radical and entirely plausible, but at the moment seems to me less likely than the idea that there is one sun which is represented differently across separate systems. Which idea is more useful? or do we chop and change to suit the moment, in time honoured chaotic tradition? (oxymoron there, I know...)

To an extent we're only on preliminaries here. We're all limited by experience and language and therefore can only describe systems either in terms of themselves or in terms of others, hence some of the above posts looking for connections between systems. Regardless, this is yielding some interesting ideas...
 
 
Indigo
11:39 / 26.02.02
I think that there will definitely be similarities (correspondences) between the various systems. All were created by human beings, and (at the risk of generalising here), human beings face the same things. Granted, ech individual will have unique experiences and so on, but the primal human reactions, trials etc. are pretty much the same. We all have happiness, grief, loss, change, challenge, decisions, uncertainty etc. in the great stroll down the road that is life.

The point I'm trying to reach, is that as all systems were created from human/divine experience, the pattern is going to be there in whatever system you look at. The core is the same (humanity) so, although the expression is vastly different, the base pattern of human experience is present.

Haven't done the maths to put it together though...
 
 
cusm
15:14 / 26.02.02
Escoteric systems are an attempt to describe the totality of human experience and understanding of reality within one codified set of relations that can apply to all things. Each attempts to do this, and each succeeds to some extent in describing the reality of its people as they understand it. Another people may understand reality differently, see things others may have missed, or missed things others have seen. So, the systems vary, as does their applicability. Some are more universal than others, some more culturally tied and limited.

An an example, any full pantheon is an escoteric system. A complete pantheon has dieties which describe every aspect of the human condition and environment as understood by man. Thus, you will continually have gods of different emotions and natural forces, as well as important things to society like crops, hunting, warfare and wine. The occultist sees this, and sees wisdom in it. By comparing pantheons, one can see which elements are universal, and speak of a deeper truth to the human condition. So, he makes tables of correspondances to understand the gnostic truth behind each system to find some more universal applications. Only, the bit I don't care for is assuming that because Gods are of the same aspect, they are the same Gods. Not so, if they are spiritual beings as we believe them to be. Thor and Shango might be similar, responsible for similar traits, and may even get along great with eachother, but replacing one for the other or invoking them as one being might not necessarially work out, regardless of how hard Joseph Campbel tries to shoehorn them into metamythic archetypes.

Looking past gods to occult references and systems, the same is true. As a simple example, duality. It is observed that all things can be describe in terms of duality, so this is an easy truth. Something is either here or there, you or me. The duality is the simplest and most complete escoteric system, as its simplicity includes all things. As well, it is easiest to add 1+1=1 to understand the trancendental unity of all things. Yin and Yang.

But perhaps that's not enough detail. You can see the world as a trinity: maiden, mother, and crone. Past, present, and future. Creator, preserver, destroyer. These work, and seem complete as well. Unifying 1+1+1=1 is also pretty easy math to understand the trancendental. But again, there is little detail in only three elements. Still not much to grab on to for practical workings.

What about 4? We have 4 elements, 4 seasons, 4 states of matter. This works well, and allows us to further divide human consciousness into 4 elements so as to better understand it. But interpretations begins to become less universal. What if there were 5 elements, such as used in the east? Or 6 planets? Or 7 chackras? The Taoists have 8 chackras, Tibetians 9 psychic centers. It gets more and more confusing, and difficult to map all things as detail is understood. So, systems increase in size.

We seem to have hit on a good one with 10, with the quaballa. We're really good at understanding other systems from its perspective. It again seems to describe all existance, and may well be another perfect system, abstract enough to describe all things. But its still too abstract, we need more detail. So, we add the 23 paths between the spheres, which together are also a complete system. This maps well onto alphabets.

This tradition is continued by the Norse, who do much the same with their own tree of life, and alphabet. Each element describes a different aspect of reality, and together they describe a whole. But is it the same whole? Is it a perfect whole? Maybe, maybe not. Our understanding is imperfect. What worked for 2 or 3 may not work as well for 23.

But even if a system of 9 and a system of 10 both described reality in full, do they match up directly? Well, try diving 9 into 10. Its not even. You get 1.11_. Most of them mostly match up, but there are differences, variations. You can look at each as a whole and they are complete, but within them they do not translate over directly. You can use one as a guide to understand the other, but you can't fully translate. You have to work from within the system you are using for it to remain valid. Otherwise, you end up with 1+1+1+1.111+1.111+1.111 etc not quite = 1. Though for some this can work, as 12/4 is 3, so elemental mappings can fall on the Zodiac and be easily understood. Some systems can include others effectively, some can not.

*runs out of steam*

Hm. Did I actually manage to make any points, I wonder? I think I managed to argue both sides again...
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
16:33 / 26.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Flame On:


Ahah. Threadmeat.


Excellent. Now that Flame on and cusm have gotten the barbeque started, I'll take my threadmeat rare.

quote:
Most of us are assuming that these disparate systems describe the same universe. cusm and Lothar, you appear to be arguing that they don't: care to expand on that?


Surely. I don't think they describe different universes but I do think they are different tools that can be used in slightly different ways to describe the same universe.

To use a tool analogy, a flathead and a phillips head screwdriver are both screwdrivers and they can both help me build things. But, they aren't the same and they work best and/or only with the appropriate headed screws.

Now, as for the divinatory systems, I'll get valid answers from each system. The difference lies with how easily each system communicates to the individual diviner.

By saying they are all one and trying to force a hybrid creature, the practitioner runs the risk of losing some of the really cool aspects that make each one unique.

In regards to magic a good example is in the voodoo sigil thread a week or so ago. Grant made the very good point that a Voodoo veve is not a sigil and can't be charged as such. They're different.

The runes are also different than chaos magic sigils (even though there is a strong linguistic connection between the rune 'Sowilo' and the modern term 'sigil'). In my experience, you don't need to forget your runecastings while you do need to forget your sigil castings. Both are very similar, do similar things, and even have similar linguistic sources but also have very different attributes that if not recognized can really muck up your intended results.
 
 
Naked Flame
09:16 / 27.02.02
reading this, I can almost hear my brain evolving.

quote:The point I'm trying to reach, is that as all systems were created from human/divine experience, the pattern is going to be there in whatever system you look at. -Indigo

Esoteric systems are an attempt to describe the totality of human experience and understanding of reality within one codified set of relations that can apply to all things. Each attempts to do this, and each succeeds to some extent in describing the reality of its people as they understand it. -Cusm


This is where I started from. Universalism. There are patterns. And instinct tells me that they all describe the same universe. But I'm starting to question to what extent that 'instinct' might be programmed. If I'm making the assumption that they all work together and describe the same world because they all work for me, I'm making a solipsistic judgement. After all, any magic I try happens in my universe first of all...

quote: What if there were 5 elements, such as used in the east? Or 6 planets? Or 7 chackras? The Taoists have 8 chakras, Tibetians 9 psychic centers. -Cusm

Clearly we have no trouble building systems of thought around whatever we percieve the structure of the macrocosm to be.

Lothar, I like your flat-head/philips-head argument. It gets very interesting when we consider Cusm's point about variance in the cosmology of the body. If I practice both Tibetan and Taoist techniques, do I have 8, 9, 17 or an unspecified number of psychic centres? Clearly that's a problem. But the screwdriver metaphor tells me that I have as many psychic centres as the tools I am using are equipped to deal with. This seems to me to be profoundly important. If the human organism can be taken as our universal signifier in these magical languages, the co-existence of different sets of psychic hot spots on the body (mirroring the differences in the 'bodies' of the associated cosmologies) suggests strongly that these various 'psychic points' are actually secondary in nature. In other words, the system creates the magical body- not the other way around. If the same is true on a greater scale... how much more complex did the universe just get? because those disparate magical realities still have to co-exist.

quote: By saying they are all one and trying to force a hybrid creature, the practitioner runs the risk of losing some of the really cool aspects that make each one unique. -Lothar


But if we actually find out precisely in what manner they are all one, we'll be smarter. The truth is in there...


edit: not enough brain left to close my ubbcode tags...

[ 27-02-2002: Message edited by: Flame On ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
09:16 / 27.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Flame On:


But if we actually find out precisely in what manner they are all one, we'll be smarter. The truth is in there...


Agreed. The trick is to recognize when to bring them together and when to keep them apart. Also, when to theorize (like we're doing here) and when to use the practical aspects (magic out in the field, not in the laboratory).

I think cusm's and my reticence is that quite a few occult authors put feathers in their caps by noticing connections that may not be useful in a practical sense. These connections sounds really cool but you can't use them.

A cautionary tale for the novices in all of us.

My real question is what I Ching hexagram corresponds to the 3 of Cups?

[ 27-02-2002: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
eye landed
04:36 / 06.05.04
I hope this is worth exhuming the topic for.

I found a page on runes that places them in the seed of life. As we probably know, the QBL tree of life can grow from the SoL as well.

The lines of the runes (i.e. paths) can vibrate at various frequencies depending on their length and location, like strings between pegs. But I don't know how exactly the runes should be placed on the SoL, so I don't know how they resonate compared to the sephirotic paths. The runes may map out a different system of paths on the ToL than the sephirotic system, just as the English alphabet is claimed to do.

In fact, if I fill in the SoL with runes as I think is indicated, I end up filling all of the red lines (see the link) except the right-hand point of the star. It's possible to chart all the runes on the SoL and fill in even fewer lines than that.

On the other hand, it's impossible to fit all the runes as they stand into the paths of the sephirotic tree. Most of the paths are at the wrong angle to do any good, and the paths I need aren't there. The English tree, with four more paths (link above) fits all runes except jera, and it can do jera with a slight rotation.

I figure I don't even need to limit myself to these lines, since the seph. ToL doesn't bother limiting itself to the SoL lines.

So far, no brilliant system presents itself to me. It would be nice if some of the spiffing wizards around here would throw some suggestions.
 
 
cusm
19:26 / 06.05.04
substatique, have a look for the Armenen runes. They are an alternate set of 18 runes which fit into the hexagonal seed crystal. The Futhark does not fit this mold, as you've noticed, but the Armenen was designed to from the start.
 
  
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