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A failure question

 
 
Jack Denfeld
07:14 / 10.02.06
This isn't about me. It's about some other person.

Are you a failure if you never really set out to do anything anyway? You didn't fail. Or are you a failure because you never set out to do anything? Is that an automatic fail, or is not having the goals a failsafe?
 
 
modern maenad
07:37 / 10.02.06
I know I'm derailing this thread before its even started, but have to say that if I could eradicate a word/concept from our language/culture fail(ure) would be a pretty hot contender. My main objection is that the label itself does nothing to counter the outcome it describes, in fact it seems to be all about the re-enforcement of the value-judgement-laden negativity. I'm really talking semantics as its the meaning and implication I want to annihilate.......
 
 
Dead Megatron
09:59 / 10.02.06
yeah, but then how would you describe when someone attempted something and didn't manage to achieve the expectec results. I think it would be better to get rid of the concept of "looser", instead of the concept of "failure".

Additionally, a life without goals, be they professional or personal, such as the afore described, would feel empty, would it not?
 
 
nameinuse
13:53 / 10.02.06
I'd rather there was a word for a valiant attempt made with good intentions which just didn't work out, as opposed to just being rubbish at something. Pretty much all successful (defined for the purposes of this post as people who get what they want out of life) people have a string of failures behind them, but then so do a lot of unsuccessful people. Failure alone is not an indicator of a positive or negative experience, we really need finer words to describe the mode of faliure.

I mean, to take a personal example, I dropped out of University at the end of my second year there. This, by most standards (including mine at the time) was probably a faliure, but I got far more mileage out of it in terms of personal experience and motivation than I would have done had I got a slightly rubbish degree in a subject I didn't want to pursue further.

So yes, either rephrase faliure with more positive conitations or find a word that means something that went different to how you expected it but was a good attempt and was valuable in the great scheme of things. I'm sure I remember reading that an eastern langauge had a word for that, but I can't remember which language or what word. Can anyone enlighten me?
 
 
Dead Megatron
14:15 / 10.02.06
something like "nice try", perhaps?
 
 
nameinuse
14:42 / 10.02.06
"Nice try" has too many connotations of sarcasm, and doesn't really fulfil the positivity. To me, "nice try" means "well done for trying but you're still a bit rubbish". I think I'm getting at something that means "a success that just didn't turn out quite how you intended it".
 
 
bacon
15:34 / 10.02.06
isn't there a saying along the lines of "falling in shit and coming out stinking of roses"

and what the fucks the point of this thread again?

if you succeed in aspiring to nothing you can't be considered a failure
 
 
astrojax69
20:23 / 10.02.06
if there isn't, there should be.


surely great success is possible only through understanding failure and striving against it? if you don't understand failure - and the best way is experience - then perhaps you won't understand success.

and perhaps that is truly failure...

use adversity to your advantage. embrace failure and seek out difficulties to overcome. understand something and you are not afraid. don't fear failure, so change the perjorative, mm, through changing how we understand what failure is.

perhaps what we need is a word for the not really being very good at something sort of failure and leave this word for the valiant attempt but still fucked up type...

'ordinary'? then 'failure' is a grand concept!
 
 
Mourne Kransky
18:50 / 11.02.06
 
 
Jack Denfeld
09:31 / 13.02.06
Xoc, that cartoon is like the Chumbawamba "I Get Knocked Down" song. So does perseverance prevent you from being a failure? Just tiny victory after tiny victory? At first I thought that Lex Luthor would think that was ridiculous.

But then again Luthor will always fail to destroy Superman. Always. He'll be failing over and over again for as long as Superman stories continue. But he does gain some residual goodies while trying to destroy Superman. He's rich and powerful.
 
 
Seth
10:38 / 13.02.06
There’s that NLP presupposition: There is no failure, only feedback It’s tied into ideas that if you try something and it doesn’t work, use it as a learning experience and try something else. Which is lovely, because so many people have so many negative connotations surrounding the word failure, mainly because of the meaning described in number two below:

failure

1. The condition or fact of not achieving the desired end or ends: the failure of an experiment.
2. One that fails: a failure at one's career.
3. The condition or fact of being insufficient or falling short: a crop failure.
4. A cessation of proper functioning or performance: a power failure.
5. Nonperformance of what is requested or expected; omission: failure to report a change of address.
6. The act or fact of failing to pass a course, test, or assignment.
7. A decline in strength or effectiveness.
8. The act or fact of becoming bankrupt or insolvent.

But then, is being *one that fails* even possible in the first place? You might fail a lot, and it might be possible that failure becomes deeply bound up in your identity, which is a tragedy because it is impossible to *always* fail at *everything.* Taken to its conclusion it’s ludicrous. Flip it around, what about calling someone a success? When? And in what context? Honestly ask yourself whether you’d have an issue with calling yourself a success. It’s just as misleading and untrue as calling yourself a failure, but it fewer unpleasant connotations (not allowing for everyone’s idiosyncrasies in the way they understand words).

I think this is potentially more about wounding a person’s ego than anything else, and I think that the NLP presupposition described above is also about helping people to save face. It’s sometimes useful to allow people to do this. But then it’s also an extremely useful thing in other contexts to fail, to fail utterly, to fail when it was something that was really important to you, so that you can grieve and understand your mistakes and spend a good deal of time building the lesson into who you are as a person.

There are some people who really need to hear that they’ve failed. I can think of a lot of extremely self-important, self-deluded people on my NLP course who could have benefited from such a temporary wound, if it was done in a way that would have allowed them to pay attention rather than justifying themselves in their ego. I do this quite a lot on the phone every day with callers, when they come the line with righteous fury against a neighbour or an ex-partner and you can see every failure they’ve made in the situation themselves.

And there are some people who don’t, and who need to be built up instead. People who might quite readily but unrealistically see themselves as a failure, because they have a number of personal failures that loom large in their field of attention. Either way, you’d want to be careful about how you use the word fail around either arbitrary category of person, and you’d want to be careful about how you’d use it to describe yourself.
 
 
Seth
10:42 / 13.02.06
Heh. Reading that back. Were they only self-important and self-deluded because of the training context we were in, as a defense mechanism? The problem with trying to question these assumptions about the way we use words is you notice the ones you readily question yourself and the ones you allow to slip through the net without noticing, and everything that says about your personal prejudices that bubbles under the surface.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
11:13 / 13.02.06
But then, is being *one that fails* even possible in the first place? You might fail a lot, and it might be possible that failure becomes deeply bound up in your identity, which is a tragedy because it is impossible to *always* fail at *everything.*
That makes me feel a little better. Thanks Seth.


p.s. I mean it makes my friend feel better. Because it was about them not me, Jack Denfeld.
 
 
Seth
11:27 / 13.02.06
WWND?
 
 
Seth
11:27 / 13.02.06
What Would Nimrod Do?
 
 
Mistoffelees
17:57 / 13.02.06
I just remembered one of my favourite married with children episodes. The one, where Al after about 25 years returns the book to the library and faces the librarian. She is giving him a really hard time (like he knew he would, and like she had done, when he was a kid) and is calling him a loser.

But then Al has one of the best moments in the entire series and says this right to her face:

You think I'm a loser? Because I have a stinking job that I hate, a family that doesn't respect me, and a whole city that curses the day I was born?

Well, that may mean loser to you, but let me tell you something. Every day when I wake up in the morning, I know it's not going to get any better until I go back to sleep. So I get up. I have my watered-down Tang and my still-frozen Pop Tart. I get in my car with no gas, no upholstery, and six more payments. I fight honking traffic just for the privilege of putting cheap shoes onto the cloven hooves of people like you.

I'll never play football like I wanted to. I'll never know the touch of a beautiful woman. And I'll never know the joy of driving through the city without a bag over my head. But I'm not a loser.

Because, despite it all, me and every other guy who'll never be what they wanted to be, is out there, being what we don't want to be, forty hours a week, for life. And the fact that I didn't put a gun in my mouth years ago - that little fact makes me a winner, baby.


You go, Al!
It´s just like Shakespeare said:

Al that lives must die,
Passing through nature to eternity.
 
 
Dead Megatron
19:22 / 13.02.06
I remember that episode. That's when I fell in love with Al... Note that, shortly after, he took the sugar out of the woman's desk and -fulfilling a promise he made 25 years ago and never went through with - poured it all in the woman's car's gas tank.

Sweet, sweet vengeance
 
 
Chiropteran
19:30 / 13.02.06
But then Al has one of the best moments in the entire series and says this right to her face:

That whole quote gave me chills, seriously. Beautiful, in a strange and uncomfortable way. It just about makes that whole (IMO) wretched series worth it.

Meanwhile, Xoc: where is that picture from?
 
 
Mourne Kransky
20:01 / 13.02.06
It's a portrait of Samuel Beckett, by Tom Phillips, that hangs in the National Portrait Gallery. The quote's Beckett's, from Worstward Ho.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.
 
 
Chiropteran
12:22 / 14.02.06
Xoc: thank you.
 
  
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