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Christian Voice & The BNP

  
 
Tom Paine's Bones
14:23 / 04.02.06
There have been reports in the Observer that the BNP have been involved in Christian Voice's campaign against Jerry Springer the Opera, both at meetings and leafleting.

Local BNP leader Graham Green said: 'We are totally opposed to this theatre production, and our members have been helping to hand out pro-Christian leaflets.'

Christian Voice don't seem to be denying this as such. They say:

'There may have been BNP members present at our meeting - there may also have been Labour supporters. We don't ask people for their voting records.'

which is hardly the most convincing of defenses. To compare the BNP to the Labour Party in terms of their members is farcial in the first place. And that really doesn't come across as an attitude of someone who's genuinely bothered about BNP infiltration.

The BNP themselves give a detailed rundown of at least one meeting. (BNP Website, both highly offensive and NSFW) which does seem to confirm that they were there.

If further evidence of Christian Voice's, at best, apathy on this issue, Gay.com has this:

The group has been hit after it emerged that members of the extremist group British National Party would be attending the protest and distributing leaflets for Christian Voice.

The BNP says the musical is offensive to the majority and argues that similar takes on minority groups would be barred. One member told the BBC that he would be “helping to distribute leaflets for Stephen Green" in Plymouth.

Christian Voice says it is not linked with the BNP, with some of its Plymouth members saying they were “appalled” by the suggestion.

However, they said it would be difficult to bar members from joining the protest.

"I don't go around asking our leaflet people what their political persuasion is,” Reverend John Hollins said.

"They claim they've been supporting us and maybe they hold the same view on this issue but we would repudiate their involvement with us absolutely."

If you're not even bothering to find out who your leafletters are affilated to, I think it's reasonable to treat any claims of repudiation with contempt.

I think all of this leads to an interesting question. Not only does Christian Voice's bigotry make them worth opposing on general principles in my view, there is now serious concrete evidence that they may have fascists on some of their activities, with no action from them to stop this. Considering the long established 'no platform' policy as far as fascist organised activity is concerned, I think it's time for people who support that policy to seriously consider if Christian Voice now fall under its remit.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
09:09 / 05.02.06
Absolutely. Wasn't one of the CV people on television saying that it was ok to offend muslims but not christians?
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
12:11 / 05.02.06
I think I missed that. Just to clarify, was the CV person saying that, in their view, it was ok to offend Muslims? Or were giving the line that "in this country you're allowed to offend Christians but not Muslims"?

Either's interesting, but the second would be particuarly so, as it's pretty much word for word the BNP's stance on this.

Does anyone know how CV decide their policy? I'm just wondering if it's at public meetings.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
19:46 / 05.02.06
It was Our Lady in the Danish Cartoons thread:

Watching Newsnight on this last night as the guy from the charmless bigots of Christian Voice was pretty much ignored once he said that it was perfectly fine to ignore Islamic beliefs because they were wrong but Christian rights needed to be respected because they were right.
 
 
Dead Megatron
12:20 / 06.02.06
Ah, those fundamentalists. They are always fundamentally sure their fundaments are more fundamental than other fundamentalists's fundaments. It cracks me up (in a fundamentally cinic way)
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:24 / 06.02.06
Do you have anything to contribute to this thread, DM?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:55 / 06.02.06
I certainly think that CV's fuss about JS:tO is a good comparison to flag up when looking at the recent riots about the danish cartoons, especially when people try to make out that there is something inherently "anti-free speech" about Islam (as opposed to strongly organised and traditional religion in general, which is a position I have more sympathy for).

Hopefully their involvement with the BNP will cause mainstream Christian institutions/persons to sever links with them, which will be profitable, as Christian Voice come across as an unpleasant group anyway- I mean, labelling yourself as the voice of an entire religion? That takes some ego.
 
 
Dead Megatron
17:51 / 06.02.06
Do you have anything to contribute to this thread, DM?

Fundamentally, no. But sometimes humour is the only defense against madness. And fundamentalism is a form of madness, in my account (one that's particularly opposite to humour, I might add)

Sorry if I made a "non-post", sometimes I just can't help it. Ignore me is the best policy
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
18:24 / 06.02.06
Don't worry Megatron, they're just jealous because they don't turn into a gun, even if you never manage to kill anyone before this year.

I think this is more a case of fellow travellers rather than 'infiltration', both groups are still marginal in British society, the charmless bigots more so than the fascist scum, so it makes sense to combine forces when they have elements in common but not to do so formerly, that way both groups can claim more support than is actually the case.
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:51 / 06.02.06
Hey, i've crushed Optimus with my bare hands. The fact that I'm now Unicron's puppet is merely incidental.

Sorry about all that. back to subject, please. This is a serious thread, after all.
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
00:49 / 07.02.06
I think this is more a case of fellow travellers rather than 'infiltration', both groups are still marginal in British society, the charmless bigots more so than the fascist scum, so it makes sense to combine forces when they have elements in common but not to do so formerly, that way both groups can claim more support than is actually the case.

Hmm, I certainly understand what you're saying. But to suggest that they're fellow travellers, suggests to me a level of conscious operational links that, while it's certainly possible, I don't see enough evidence to support at the moment.

I'd see it as possible not that important though. I think it's reasonable to say that both groups ideologies are repulsive. And, the most charitable explanation I can think of, is that Christian Voice are not particuarly interested in whether fascists turn up on their activities. Which isn't much of a defense.

Amusingly, in a bleak way, there's currently a bit of an uproar on Stormfront. Where some BNP supporters are claiming that working to closely with Christian Voice will give them a bad name.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:36 / 07.02.06
Dead Megatron: I'd like to make a modest proposal. In the Switchboard, The Head Shop, the Laboratory and the Temple, try not posting unless you have read at least one thing outside Barbelith about the subject under discussion. Also, that you do not post unless you can relate what you are posting specifically to the thread - so, in this case, a post about fundamentalism in general would not be posted, because this is not a discussion of fundamentailism in general but a discussion of the infiltration of Christian Voice by the BNP. If there is something you desperately need to share with the class that does not meet these requirements, start a thread in the Conversation and put it there.

I suggest this with love, as at the moment you are doing little but convince people that you aren't really interested in talking to them or with them. but only at them, and this will harm your burgeoning popularity.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:38 / 07.02.06
Figroll: I'd be fascinated to hear more of the thinking behind that unhappiness. Is it that Christian Voice is open to all races?
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
19:36 / 08.02.06
I certainly think that's an element in there, but I think there's more to it then that.

Just to give a brief overview of the two main ideological currents in the BNP, because I think it provides some useful context to this.

On one side, you have the leadership and their supporters, the 'moderniser' tendency. They're trying to reinvent the BNP as a Le Pen style 'Euronationalist' party, and have had a great deal of success with that. The adoption of a Jew as a candidate was a good example of this strategy. And I'd see this attempt to work with Christian Voice as similar- it links into the whole idea of a "clash of cultures" beloved by much of the right. While Griffin supports this strategy, he isn't its architect. Griffin is an (unfortunately fucking savvy) media operator and political strategist. He's never been a theorist. The main mover behind this is the BNP deputy leader, Tony Lecomber who is less publicly known.

The other main strand is the far more traditional 'old guard' Moseleyite fascists. They don't like the new direction that the BNP's taken. At the moment they don't have much political influence at the leadership level, though that may change if the BNP's relative election successes dry up. They were mainly Tyndall loyalists and organised round his magazine Spearhead. His death has them thrown into something of a state of chaos.

Onto the specific reasons why I think some BNP members are unhappy with this.

1. The idea that Christianity is a "Jewish religion". It's important not to overstate this as a reason. While there was still a significant number of Nazis in the BNP back in the early 90s, they've almost all been expelled/walked out and joined other groups.

2. Anger at the (in my view unconvincing) attempts by Christian Voice to dissociate themselves from the BNP. As a Stormfront poster put it:

If you check the Christian Voice website, you will find they have no right to condemn the BNP. They basically have the same ideas, no to Islam, no to gays, child protection.

so there's a real feeling that Christian Voice are betraying their natural allies among BNP members.

3. Tactical issues (mainly an argument being put forward by the modernisers), in essence that it's a mistake to support censorship because it could be used against the BNP. From Stormfront:

While I don't particularly like "Jerry Springer: The Opera" or what it represents (as I am a Christian), I'm not sure the BNP should be getting involved in something which is actively seeking to repress others right of expression - remember, we're only ever a step away from being caught on the flip side of this particular coin another time.

It's all to easy to condemn something like this without considering the consequences.

4. The fact that some members of the BNP are unhappy about associating to closely with a religious group. The BNP aren't actually a Christian fascist organisation. They have atheists and agnostics in the group. And some of the Old Guard are Odinists. (Obviously, I'm not accusing all, or most, Odinists of being fascist here. Just the ones in the BNP). A lot of BNP members support the church as a "white historical identity" as opposed to a religious belief system. Particularly as, obviously, all the churches have condemned racism and the BNP. Stormfront:

m not so keen on this new alliance with religious groups. Let the play go ahead I say or we will be made into hypocrites, and the the last thing the BNP needs is to be linked to religious organisations. If they go too far down this route I fear they will be able to close the party down as supporting "religious extremists" or whatever bull they can come up with. Support the church, defend our identity and historical basis, but be wary.

That Christian Right group or whatever it was, the one where they had a guy on Question time once, is not where we wanna be heading. We dont need another bible belt type situation happening I feel.

Hope that sheds some light on the situation.

Apologies to anyone who's offended by the amount of fascist crap I've quoted in this post, but I do believe that sometimes it's important to understand the enemy in their own words.
 
  
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