BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


What next? Fiona Horne

 
  

Page: 1(2)

 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:44 / 09.11.05
I think that's a motto to live by.

There's also, I think, an argument that 'mainstream' incursions, no matter how terrible, can reach people who might find the subcultures/spaces of serious magic intimidating/cliquey - riffing partly off beautifultoxin's line on aesthetics, it can be very off-putting if you're a nwecomer to an area of knowledge if it appears you have be/look/speak a certain way to be into it.

I tend to think that being able to buy books on such subjects in Borders/Barnes and Noble etc is a good thing, as it allows for greater access/reach. If something whets someone's appetite, they're going to go further into it, but they have to be able to get at it in the first place.

A bastardised version is better than nothing in these terms.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:53 / 09.11.05
That is, if it *is* a bastardised version, I don't know enough about the specifics here to judge. I'm dubious that someone getting their kit off is *still* linked to their lack of credibility.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
16:30 / 09.11.05
Fiona Horne's association with Playboy makes her some sort of dupe, whereas RAW's editorship of Playboy makes him what?

For God's sake, you just don't understand anything do you? Can't you see she is FEEBL WOMEN while Robert Anton Wilson wrote the Illuminatis trilogies? If you just shifted out of your narrow and conformist "reality tunnel" (READ HIS BOOKS) you would understand.


I'm not even into RAW and my views on Playboy would be the same if gender was reversed. I think this line of conversation has been played out, but just to clarify, I'm not saying what was parodied in the second quote.
 
 
SteppersFan
18:53 / 09.11.05
Toxin:
> "Personally I think it's cultural appropriation of Wicca"
> Oh, no you DIDN'T!

Oh yes I did.

I did not say I think Fiona Horne is necessarily appropriating Wicca's cultural capital. I did say I did not know for sure whether she is actually a Wiccan or simply adopting the term.

I suggested that the blurring of the meaning of the term "Wiccan" is largely a result of cultural appropriation.

And I still don't think her books are much cop.
 
 
SteppersFan
18:57 / 09.11.05
> the easy answer to that is to write a good one yourself and
> put into the world! Raise the bar for tacky, accessible
> books on magic!

Well, get on with it, then!

(I don't believe for a minute that Gypsy's generous-hearted embracing of tacky magick books will last more than ten minutes before normal, bilious broadcasting is resumed )

Steve Wilson has done centrefolds? Now I know why he grew his hair. The mind boggles.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:42 / 09.11.05
I'd agree that the broad misapplication of the term "Wiccan" both by the mainstream media and by not-really-Wiccan practitioners dilutes the term (and pisses off those of us who've got thoroughly fed up with explaining why we're not Wiccans). However, I'm not familiar with the concept that one has to be initiated into a coven to be a 'real' Wiccan. I mean, regardless of the historical basis of its componants and the claims of some practitioners, Wicca as we know it has only existed since the 1950s. How important is lineage in the context of such a recently created path?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:43 / 09.11.05
(Of course, having said all that I'm not very familiar with Wicca, so I could be talking out of my arse.)
 
 
beautifultoxin
07:24 / 10.11.05
When we're talking about "pure Wicca" then, I'm assuming we're talking about Gerald Gardner in the 40's and 50's and the resultant trads -- British Traditional Wicca, as it were.

Then, of course, just as legitimately not out of any historical lineage but simply because they're so damned loud, is the Wicca pushed in this manner -- by people uncomfortable with the word witch, by people who think any Pagan working is Wiccan, by people trying to sell a book and looking for a cultural signpost. These folks -- theses days -- far outnumber the BTW's.

I was amazed that in LaSara's book (seriously, I'm not her publicist, I'm just loving her book), she had a statement about how she is NOT a Wiccan, she is a Witch. That Wicca was one set of practices, and she felt neither the practices if encomapssed nor what the term now means applied to her work. It's both these days when it comes to Wicca -- history and current practice.

Not that I think this is going to advance the conversation here with you, any, as you seem convinced that posing naked in Playboy would cancel out anyone's agency as a magician or otherwise. Feh.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:04 / 10.11.05
Not that I think this is going to advance the conversation here with you, any, as you seem convinced that posing naked in Playboy would cancel out anyone's agency as a magician or otherwise. Feh.

Uhhh... was that addressed to me? Because I don't recall actualy writing anything to that effect. I certainly don't think that.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:11 / 10.11.05
Well, get on with it, then!

It's not really my job at the moment. Got other business to be getting on with. I think tacky occult books serve a purpose, they can be done well or they can be done badly. They don't really piss me off to any extent if they are done badly, as I think they cater for a very different market to, say, the market I might aim my own writing at. For instance, Fiona Horne's books are likely to be picked up a lot more readily by a certain demograph of people interested in magic, than a lot of more "serious" books about magic. If someone gets something out of it, feels comfortable with it, and it leads them somewhere - then that is a good thing. God knows, I had my fair share of rubbish magic books when I was a kid, and they were an important stepping stone for me at the time.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
09:57 / 10.11.05
How important is lineage in the context of such a recently created path?

The emphasis on "lineage" is very much a feature of early Gardnerian Wicca, and might well have been 'borrowed' by Gardner from his research into South Asian religious practices during his time in Malaysia (although the notion of a 'unbroken lineage' was also present in Margaret Murray's writing).

The shift in emphasis away from lineage towards self-initiation is laid at the door of Ray Buckland (at least by Wiccan friends of mine who were initiated in the 1970s). It's well-known that Buckland started the first Gardnerian coven in the USA and did much to promote Gardnerian Wicca in America. Buckland 'created' the Seax-Wicca 'tradition' in 1974 which made no claims of historical continuity, and moreover, allowed for self-initiation, rather than the rather stricter insistence on initiation and oral transmission of knowledge in the British Gardnerian manner. Apparently, its been claimed that one of the reasons Buckland created "Seax-Wicca" was that he wanted to bring Wiccan principles to a wider audience, and was becoming increasingly aware of the problems of geographical distance in the USA between would-be practitioners.

The whole issue of 'lineage' has of course led to many arguments and a lot of bad blood between lineage-initiates and self-initiates (claims of authenticity, exclusion etc.), but I think there's also another side to 'lineage' that's worth considering - the social dimension - in that accepting someone as a fellow 'initiate' makes it easier to establish a level of trust between individuals that otherwise, might take much longer to build up. So for example, when I was in a Wiccan coven, my high priestess would often introduce me to other Wiccan priestesses she knew in the region. Being 'accepted' not only meant that I didn't get excluded from certain levels of conversation, but also that I'd get invited to stay with people, offered hospitality and help, and generally accepted as 'one of the family'.

In the early 1980s, there was a 'scandal' in the UK Witchcraft community that cut to the heart of this dimension of mutual trust through recognition. Chris Bray's "Lamp of Thoth" magazine ran a column penned by a couple jointly writing under the pen-name "Galadriel" who claimed that they were hereditaries and described some of their practices & beliefs which were quite radically different from either Alexandrian or Gardnerian Wicca, and led to some contraversy. So much so indeed, that a fairly well-known Wiccan 'spokesperson' (who's dead now) decided they had to be 'shut down' lest they bring the Craft into disrepute. So, through intermediaries, he brought to this couple's attention a 'fellow initiate' who was in some kind of trouble. They invited this person to stay with them, accorded him hospitality; freely discussed their beliefs with him and so were shocked and surprised when, a few weeks later, they found themselves 'exposed' in the pages of the "News of the World".
 
 
SteppersFan
14:59 / 10.11.05
Mordant:
>>Not that I think this is going to advance the conversation
>> here with you, any, as you seem convinced that posing naked
>> in Playboy would cancel out anyone's agency as a magician
>> or otherwise. Feh.

> Uhhh... was that addressed to me? Because I don't recall
> actualy writing anything to that effect. I certainly
> don't think that.

No, it was addressed to me.

I didn't write that either, nor do I think that. In fact I specifically mentioned something entirely contrary to that. Oh well.

I am aware that the term Wiccan has been debased as a means of, for example, selling books. So it goes. The term still means something. I'm not bothered by Buckland's adaptation of the term (Seax is a perfectly good current of magic so far as I can gather). I am bothered by Wicca's ersatz Llewellynisation, as are many other Wiccans.

I don't know whether lineage is good, bad or indifferent, but it's a feature of Wicca proper. It has its uses as Trouserian points out. The episode he describes is one of those which makes one grind one's teeth in frustration at the sheer stupidity of occultists in general and Wiccans in particular.

BTW, the "British Traditional" is not a term usually adopted by Gardnerian Wiccans. British Traditional Witchcraft is however a term often adopted by Witches claiming pre-Gardnerian roots, often though not always associated with Cunning Men traditions. Some of them would be most annoyed at being called Garnedrian. I find this amusing.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:18 / 10.11.05
Witch Fight! Witch Fight!
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:02 / 10.11.05
Wicca, adult DVD not suitable for work

This girl is attractive and plays Sarah the witch. We find her outside doing some magic and poof, two young studs with pointy ears are there to fuck her. The fun begisn with plenty of action. There isn't very much focus on oral sex, it's mostly the girl getting pound. While there was a lot of energy in this scene, I really didn't enjoy it. The girl seemed to be screaming far too much, which just left the action feeling dry and my ear hurting.
 
 
beautifultoxin
21:28 / 10.11.05
2stepfan:

BTW, the "British Traditional" is not a term usually adopted by Gardnerian Wiccans. British Traditional Witchcraft is however a term often adopted by Witches claiming pre-Gardnerian roots, often though not always associated with Cunning Men traditions. Some of them would be most annoyed at being called Garnedrian. I find this amusing.

BTW on BTW, I've only ever heard the term used by traditions that trace lineage back to Gardner. Maybe it's an East Coast American thing. Gardernians, Alexandrians, Blue Star, etc. There was a brilliant semi-private email list called "amberandjet" that was all hardcore conversation on BTW. I'm not BTW, and got a hell of a lot out of it.

I can totally see the frustration around the dumbing-down of Wicca. It's become all but shorthand, and its' original potency has been muddied -- in the outer court of pop culture, so to speak. But the inner court juice is still there, crappy marketing or no. Let the Goddess bless the hucksters on their way (out of circle), right?

It did seem like earlier in the thread there was this subtext of, "Well, anyone who poses for Playboy can calls it empowering is obviously deluded." If that was misattributed to you, I apologize. I scan/read these threads fast enough to keep up (and likewise, Mordant, of course I know you'd not buy into that, and didn't mean it towards you, not a lick.)
 
 
ghadis
21:34 / 10.11.05
Well, i'm sure there are plenty Harry Potter (Hairy Plonker) pornos getting made or out now.

It's interesting how the titillation aspect has been used or portrayed in occult books and magazines over the years. Like Trouser said above, tits and arses have played a role in occult publishing for the last 40 years or more. I for one, remember as a barely pubescent boy, weaning my magic wand over images from the periodical Man Myth and Magic. Lots of Alxandrian witches, male and female, at work naked, hovering over a stuffed goats head or a grave or something.

I was looking through some of these old 70s books and magazines today and i was struck by how real and downright creepy and disturbing some of them still appear. They are, of course, just pictures taken during a ritual, but compared to what you see in books today there is a rawness to them. I can't see many books on witcraft today being so bold as to have stuffed, or real, goats and blood feature so heavily in their interior photos.

The same thing struck me with the number of slightly disturbing images of victims of spontaneous combustion that a lot of books on the supernatural had in the 70s. I don't see many books published today on 'the spooky' with photos of burnt grannys in stairwells.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
07:48 / 11.11.05
Ghadis

There's a video company that's actually churning out what could loosely be described as "pagan erotica" (can't recall their website url but I have met a couple of people who've been in their movies) - blurbs like "Alex and Otto met at a Eurofaerie gathering, watch their sacred sex-magical invocation to the God Pan" sort of thing.

I can't see many books on witcraft today being so bold as to have stuffed, or real, goats and blood feature so heavily in their interior photos.

I think the relationship between Witches & the media, and notions of self-representation have changed considerably since the 1970's. Christina Oakley put it in terms of "Wicca has changed from being a 'secret society' to a 'society with secrets'." Alex Sanders, for example, played up to journalists' expectations and organised several media stunts- one of his more infamous exploits being "raising the dead" on Alderly Edge. The downside to the 'goats and blood' media image, with the corresponding notion that witches did secretive rituals behind closed doors was highlighted in the late 1980's, when the Satanic Child Abuse panic started stirring in the UK and Christian fundamentalists & politicians started using pagan & occult imagery to justify their claims of mass satanic child abuse going on. I can remember Patricia Crowther bravely going on TV to counter Huddersfield MP Geoffrey Dickens' claims about the evils of Witchcraft (he was lobbying for the revival of the Witchcraft act). That was a dark time indeed.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
09:03 / 11.11.05
Some links describing elements of the Satanic Child Abuse era in the UK:

Satanic Media Watch and News Exchange - useful website with many articles detailing media reports throughout the "satanic panic" period, with notes on key personalities.
The Jet Report - Nottingham County Council's infamous report on Satanic Child Abuse - the council resorted to the High Court in an attempt to stop the report being disseminated on the World-wide web.
The Devil Rides In (pdf) - Essay examining the satanic panic & its relationship to evangelic Christian groups.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:30 / 11.11.05
I remember that period fairly vividly. Especially after the Orkney case, all the other home-ed families we knew (many of them pagan or with pagan leanings) were living in a state of gnawing paranoia, as taking your kids out of school was supposed to be one of the signs that you were a Satanic child-abuser.

Some of the families that were broken up by this never got their kids back. I heard that a few of the children were actually allowed to be adopted by new families, even though there was never any evidence of abuse.
 
  

Page: 1(2)

 
  
Add Your Reply