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Devotion to an Obsession

 
 
Perfect Tommy
21:49 / 27.01.06
I'm going to speak specifically about something that's been kicking around in my head, but I am also hoping that others will draw make the appropriate generalizations and open this up.

I have been thinking about the fact that I'm not at all ready to do some of the heavy, no-fucking-around work with real live gods that some of you are engaged in, and that I'm perfectly happy with that--my time for that will come, or it won't, and in the meantime I am satisfied with my very modest magical practice of divine a little here, find a lost object there, counsel someone like I know what I'm talking about over yonder. To use an architectural metaphor, I'm not building any cathedrals, but I can putter around and keep the hinges from squeaking and the chimney swept.

But lately, the phrase "A god is that which cannot be ignored" has been stuck in my head. I may have gotten it form one of you folks, I'm not sure. And the thing that I can't ignore is mathematics. I am finishing up my bachelor's, and ought to be attending grad school in the fall (hopefully with a teaching assistantship to pay the bills and infect math-averse students with my raging enthusiasm for the subject). But looking beyond the academics, my love of math is entrenched in my soul. From one point of view, math is fundamentally the study of pattern; nature is made of pattern, it creates pattern, and it exploits just about every class of pattern it can. Math doesn't need us puny humans. But from another point of view, math is a purely human activity of encoding ideas into symbols, manipulating them according to various kinds of logics, making connections between kinds of patterns that only exist in our minds. Math is entirely dependent on human minds.

The obvious comparison: a god is larger than us in both space and in time, and yet is nothing without the worshippers.

So, I have this thing which I am devoting my life, my conscious mind, and much of my subconscious to. A subject that I deeply understand, by which I mean to say I know practically nothing about it. It is something which is larger than any mathematician, yet lives only because there is a community of mathematicians.

So, the question becomes: would it be interesting and useful to engage Mathematics in a religious sense, or am I already doing exactly that?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
22:04 / 27.01.06
WWIND?

(What Would Isaac Newton Do?)

I think math and mysticism have a long and illustrious history of intermarriage and impressive luminaries, from Godel, Escher and Newton up to Einstein and Feynmann, who may not have been a mystic per se, but may as well have been.

I find math to be absolutely beautiful and in no way incompatible with SCM (so called magic) practice.

What were you specifically thinking of, though?
 
 
Perfect Tommy
22:17 / 27.01.06
I guess the fact that I have no idea is sort of why I posted this. My SCM (heh) up to this point has been on-the-fly sigils and derive-based divination, basically; that has served me well. But, it's also not leading me anywhere new. I suppose that begs the question of whether I actually need or want to be led anywhere new; my life is proceeding more or less swimmingly. (Oh, huh... that unpacks into a question of 'what role does magic play when everything's groovy,' which is a question I also need to ponder. Boxes within boxes.)
 
 
illmatic
08:45 / 28.01.06
I find math to be absolutely beautiful

So do I, when I understand it. Had a bit of a shit schooling in the subject, but can see the wonder in it.

would it be interesting and useful to engage Mathematics in a religious sense, or am I already doing exactly that?

I think, as you say, you are doing this already. It sounds like maths is fundamental to your self expression (your Will, in a thelemic sense), and you are lucky enough to have found a route through life where you can express that. I think one of the problems with Thelema is that people get it mixed up with it's (very interesting) trappings: Crowely's life, and his compex ritual/magical synthesis. I think the whole idea of Will/creativity/self-expression is something more fundamental to that, and doesn't need these elements to function.

Math sounds like a fundamental part of what you do, your creativity. The best magicians seem to me to do the ones who give expression to their creativity through their practice. I think you don't have to "go looking" for anything - you are already doing it, and if you do take a deeper interest in any specifc area of magical study, I think you'll find maths there - it's in the I Ching, it's in the qabalah and gematria and a million other places besides. I'm sure a synthesis of the two will come to you in time.

BTW I don't actually do "big God" magic myself, and come at things fromn a slightly different angle. Possibly I will now try and get round to articulating the difference.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:23 / 28.01.06
Couple of random thoughts: This sort of ties in with a very drunken conversation I had with Lurid Archive + a few others during the hols. Lurid said something along the lines that one has to come at mathematics almost as if it is a conscious being, or a collective of conscious beings, that one must get to know and to understand.

I think that a sort of animistic approach can work very well in relation maths and related topics. Something I've heard described more than once--and have personally experienced--is the phenomenon of dreams in which mathematical concepts or formulae appear as people and you learn more about them by interacting with these personifications.

Don't know if that's much help to you but it seemed relevant.
 
 
Quantum
14:20 / 28.01.06
Have you seen Pi? "As soon as you discard scientific rigor, you're no longer a mathematician, you're a numerologist."

"You want to find the number 216 in the world, you will be able to find it everywhere. 216 steps from a mere street corner to your front door. 216 seconds you spend riding on the elevator. When your mind becomes obsessed with anything, you will filter everything else out and find that thing everywhere."

Both quotes from the excellent character Sol. For 216 there you could read '23'...
 
 
Liger Null
22:02 / 29.01.06
A former employer of mine once said that "mathmatics is the language of the gods."

I've always believed that to be true on some level.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
20:30 / 30.01.06
Illmatic: It sounds like maths is fundamental to your self expression (your Will, in a thelemic sense), and you are lucky enough to have found a route through life where you can express that.

Oh, yeah... I am so very grateful for having found my calling. I don't know enough about Thelema to have come up with the idea of it being my 'will'--I like the sound of it, but what does it mean?

I think you don't have to "go looking" for anything - you are already doing it, and if you do take a deeper interest in any specifc area of magical study, I think you'll find maths there - it's in the I Ching, it's in the qabalah and gematria and a million other places besides. I'm sure a synthesis of the two will come to you in time.

I think that the I Ching or the qabalah are definitely things I would be interested in learning more about. The maths that leap immediately to mind... when you quantify 'information', something is maximally informative (in a technical sense) when it is indistinguishable from a random sequence; for example, if I give you the sequence of words, 'Belgium, narcoleptic, sinking, Freebird, marzipan,' you have no way of guessing what the next word is, and so each word is a surprise. But the sequence, "The I Ching originates in..." there are very few words that can follow--the word that follows is less surprising, and has less information. But the first sequence isn't meaningful. So with the I Ching you've got maximal information but the meaning is dependent on the context of what the tri- and hexagrams mean. I don't know enough about the qabalah to comment on anything but the fact that it's a graph, and I know some neat stuff about graphs =)

Whoa, tangent. Anyhoo, I've tried to pick up a 'system' a couple of times and keep failing to figure out the right starting point. A post of grant's made me think that the way to go about the I Ching was to learn about the trigrams first--only 8 of those instead of 64.

Mordant C.: Lurid said something along the lines that one has to come at mathematics almost as if it is a conscious being, or a collective of conscious beings, that one must get to know and to understand.

Ohhh yeah. Sometimes mathematics just feels physically BIG. Like, you're brushing your hands over a surface to understand it, and you have a reasonably good idea of what the area in your reach is like, but you can tell you're touching the surface of something planet-sized. As for the being aspect, I feel almost like it is, I don't know, a sort of oracle--it will tell you many things, but only if you can solve the riddle. I.e., it will tell you that all Q-framistats are right-trapezoidal, but only if you are able to prove it. Once that's done, for all time any Q-framistat you come across is certainly right-trapezoidal.

As for the animism... this is yet another thing that I have much interest and little information about. I believe I've heard you mention animism recently; do you have any experiences to share on that front?

And yes, Quantum, I have seen Pi... For all my open-mindedness to things magic, I'm with Sol on the numerology front. My interest in numerology kind of went out the window when I noticed that reducing a number is really just a complicated way of finding the remainder upon division by 9 =)
 
 
Quantum
10:51 / 31.01.06
reducing a number is really just a complicated way of finding the remainder upon division by 9

Yup. There's a sarcastic saying in my house 'We've got a team of numerologists working on it around the clock right now!' meaning we're doing nothing.
The study of numerical correspondences with concepts is fascinating though (the Qaballah springs to mind where 1-10 represent Astrological planetary themes e.g. Mars) and sacred geometry is more fascinating the more math you know. There's lots of interesting numerology, but personally I don't think the method of finding your representative number is plausible, it's Anglicised gemetria.
 
 
illmatic
16:56 / 31.01.06
the way to go about the I Ching was to learn about the trigrams first--only 8 of those instead of 64

The way I've learnt is just through repeated divination. I don't have the hexagrams memorised or anything. I just divine and see if I can apply the messages of the hexagrams and moving lines to my life.

I don't know enough about Thelema to have come up with the idea of it being my 'will'--I like the sound of it, but what does it mean?

I'm sure you heard the phrase "every man and woman is a star". You could say that the "will" is your own unique orbit. I don't know if I'd want to nail down a definition really. It's more an idea to play with and see if meaning coalesces around it for you.

BTW this thread inspired me to dig out my copy of "The Man Who Loved Only Numbers" a biography of Paul Erdos. It's a fascinating read, though hard in parts for the mathematical illiterate like myself.
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:03 / 31.01.06
I would advice caution when dealing with math and magick. Every mathematician I know is a bit crazy. (Craaaazy, I tell you.) I'm just not sure if they got into math because they are crazy, or if they are crazy because they got into math.

Anyway, I'm starting to study the I-Ching (need to get more literature) and it's already amazing me
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:12 / 31.01.06
Explaining better my last post: I always tought people who have the mind of a mathematitian seem a bit odd because they have a completely different set of symbols ans co-relations to interpret the universe aroud them, as oposted to people who think with words ("verbaloids") instead of numbers ("math geniuses"). And that's why there are so many mystical/magick traditions based on math: as Galileu would put it, it is the language with which God has designed the Universe. Getting to deep into it would be like hearing the secret language of angels or the Voice of God: quite madening for those not prepared to deal with it.

guess that's it.
 
 
illmatic
18:20 / 31.01.06
To qualify my first post: rather than saying "here!Study this! " I meant to suggest that, if you're that into maths, you'll see it wherever you go, and in whatever you check out.
 
  
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