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Quantum Physics and Magical Theory

 
  

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Unconditional Love
13:26 / 02.11.07
It also suggests the more common idea of you create your own reality, i do not think that's accurate, a more complex network of integrated relationships seems to be taking place, than a single or mono structure maintaining a perception of reality. That process has resembled to me an empty chaos (unscientific use of the word). i find a one model method very unacceptable to explain what i perceive and experience when i contemplate.

Often where one model ends or becomes inadequate to garner perception or insight another is adopted to try to re frame, but the initial wonder remains at all this....stuff i guess.

The wonder and sometimes wonderful frustration seems to be a constant even when its behaving inconsistently to any template provided.

Hard to explain.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:38 / 02.11.07
I wonder if this inherent need to order or create a structure is an attempt to not face the reality of an empty chaotic structure which seems to contain no inherent meaning or value.

Science and religion seem to have this inherent need to create a system out of nature without allowing it to rest in a natural state (those terms need to be unpacked), that natural state for me seems to be one of wonder.

With no islands of thought to cling too, no attachments to thoughtful conception. In this experience of chaos there is a freedom of form and motion, a recognition of its empty temporal nature. Every theory of its time for its time, yet empty of value and meaning in its totality.

(really hard to explain without sounding like a pretentious hippy)
 
 
EvskiG
14:09 / 02.11.07
Instead of posting four times in a row, perhaps it makes sense to take some time to gather your thoughts and make one well-organized post instead.
 
 
Papess
14:10 / 02.11.07
I wonder if this inherent need to order or create a structure is an attempt to not face the reality of an empty chaotic structure which seems to contain no inherent meaning or value.

Yes, it is all empty. Having an understanding or an explanation doesn't make anything any less empty in it's absolute nature. In relative terms, everything DOES have meaning and value, but only relatively so. I think QP/M is coming to this conclusion as well. So, in fact, you are quite off in your estimation, Wolfangel. If QP/M is coming to these conclusions then how is it an attempt to NOT face the "reality"? Your idea of "no value" or "meaning" is confusing absolute nature with relative nature. Being "empty" is the absolute nature. That doesn't translate as no value or meaning in a relative sense - relative nature being the dependent arising of phenomenon - which, is still empty, but gives the appearance of having various and even innumerable qualities. I think there is Quantum theory that relates to this.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
19:09 / 02.11.07
Explanation is in a sense or could be seen as an act of limitation, any definition creates a limit and an understanding.

Well that certainly sounds like something we'd find in Zen teachings, and even pop culture explorations such as the Matrix in regards to knowing the path and walking the path, and to me points out the value of an explanation in the first place - it takes away some of the 'magic' but still leaves it to be discovered, and yet points out to where more magic can be found.

For instance, I often explore the physical sensations which can arise through meditation and body awareness exercises, and their effects on my mind and spirituality - these things have been well described by Taoist schools of thought, yet even these schools are limited in both their ability to teach (though perhaps these limitations belong more to the students than the teachings) and what they have explored. Western science can learn from them, as evidenced by accupuncture, just as they can learn from western science, as evidenced by developing Taoist theories that some aspects of human chi is perhaps best described as bio-electricity.

I really don't think that magic has to be irrational anyway; cause and effect is rather prevalent in many schools of magic, whether it be as complex as the Sephirotic system or as simple as coloured candle workings. In either case, having guidelines doesn't prevent magic from occuring, though it doesn't ensure it either - burning a red candle doesn't ensure passion, though it does put one in the right frame of mind for it, especially if this is a self fulfilling prophecy.
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:19 / 02.11.07
I think i need to re-examine quantum physics and science in general to be honest, it sort of slipped out of my reading and watching in about 1999 and never properly re-entered, sort of brief dives in but no real long term investigation. so most of my knowledge comes from what i can remember RAW wrote and others in that area, time to re-evaluate. I will start with an audio series called modern physics for non scientists, and move on from there.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
21:14 / 02.11.07
May I suggest a Beginners Guide to Reality by J Baggott, which delves into reality in terms of social, philosophical, and scientific schools of thought? It's rather good, if only for the occasional quote by Einstein such as "God does not play dice" and "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one" which may help you to rethink any 'science is gunning for god' prejudices, if you have them.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
21:17 / 02.11.07
For some reason I think that Einstein at a picnic with Lao Tzu would make for a rather pleasant day, even if they never got around to discussing what they're known best for.
 
 
Quantum
11:47 / 03.11.07
even if they never got around to discussing what they're known best for.

...or discussing quantum physics- could we please all try to veer *toward* the topic to maintain a semblance of coherence in the thread? Ta.
I'd recommend a three minute read of wikipedia or something to grasp the basics of quantum physics, everyone, before reeling off spontaneous beat poetry about it's relation to magic- wolfangel, I'm looking at you.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:20 / 03.11.07
Well i just started with classical physics and the laws of motion really interesting, everything is moving at a constant uniform progression unless other forces interact etc.

I wonder how that applies to ideas of being internally still, meditation etc, if consciousness is entangled with matter how then does stillness lead to a more natural mind as assumed by some meditational schools, surely a constant motion that is uniform, mantra, breath focus, drumming, repetitive dance etc makes more sense than this idea of a still mind.

These laws of motion also seem to suggest that since everything is in a uniform motion and progression that everything is in an equal state, thats also interesting.

Anyhow, I have to catch up to this quantum stuff, i seem to be learning stuff i could never pay enough attention too at school to properly comprehend.
 
 
Brother Tim
19:20 / 06.11.07
At risk of enraging previous posters or people with a superior knowledge of physics here goes. I find this subject particularily interesting, though my knowledge of physics is strictly pop science, which suits me as it allows me to day dream about how it all fits together quite neatly. Couple of things spring to mind whilst reading this thread. We could of course go off on tangents of definiton of the labels we are using, for starters we would struggle to come up with an agreeable definition of magic(k) which I'm sure is being dealt with else where on these discussion boards. My understanding in a pop kind of way is that the potential of magick to relate to physics lies within the un-predictable way in which sub-atomic particles behave. Quarks etc. Seeming to behave in different ways sometimes as if dictated by the experiments expectations, implying that we have some sort of influence over the physical realm. Matter being made of atoms which themselves consist of little matter and vibrate a lot which sort of leads to ideas of everything vibrating at different frequencies. Creating a perfect hippy 'oneness' which mystics and many of us have probably 'felt'. Experiments on pre-cognition seem to yield results overwhelmingly towards us being able to predict certain things in 'double blind' conditions favoured by science. This implies some sort of pattern or bigger picture which we all fit into. The problem I'm having, if it is a problem, is that I also look at magick as part of psychological/hypnosis model which is intertwined with perception. The world is filtered through our perception, we can alter our perceptions but so too can scientists. 'The world is as we dream it' and other new age stuff. Science has a different set of criteria to which it has to answer but is rooted in observation. If someone comes up with a theory be it scientific or subjectively 'spiritual' does it not affect the way we all then go on to 'perceive'? Do we actively seek out results to back our new paradigm and find them? Presuppositon is a powerful tool for hypnosis. Are we not just inventing systems to affect perception? The world used to be flat. I sound like a luddite, these are just half baked ideas, I just wanted to get on my soap box?
 
 
Unconditional Love
21:58 / 06.11.07
Talking of changing perception, M-theory, this is so amazing, the big bang caused by two parallel universes colliding, all of matter joined by what is called a membrane. This string theory stuff with its 11 dimensions, the whole notion of physicality caused by the vibration of dimensional strings.

Some of it reminds me of Hinduism in its ideas of sound or vibration as a precursor to creation, two membranes rippling into each other (sex comes to mind as well). A lot to take in thou.

The idea that gravity leaks into this universe even more astounding, also this idea of universes solely composed of electrons.

It all gave me pseudo scientific ideas of magic being about conjunction points between universes, the idea that the particles of string vibration contain a hologram like structure of all the universes, would in a sci fi kind of way mean we already have access to a multiverse.
 
 
Quantum
08:13 / 07.11.07
Welcome Brother Tim, hope you enjoy the board. I'm interested to hear you say Experiments on pre-cognition seem to yield results overwhelmingly towards us being able to predict certain things in 'double blind' conditions favoured by science. could you point toward those experiments? Which experiments on precognition do you mean?

Wolfangel- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brane
You're talking about (super)string theory, not quantum physics, although it is mind blowing too.
Superstring theory is an attempt to explain all of the particles and fundamental forces of nature in one theory by modeling them as vibrations of tiny supersymmetric strings. It is considered one of the most promising candidate theories of quantum gravity. Superstring theory is a shorthand for supersymmetric string theory because unlike bosonic string theory, it is the version of string theory that incorporates fermions and supersymmetry.

So, like, everything's connected in oneness and giving off vibes man, and like, higher dimensions are all curled up inside our atoms like really tiny sleeping kittens, and the whole thing is, like, super symmetrical...
 
 
Digital Hermes
16:04 / 08.11.07
I've been away a bit longer from the discussion then I intended. Part of it has been trying to accumulate more 'proof' to emphasize my point: that the as-above-so-below maxim applies, through quantum mechanics, as related through information systems. I'm fairly certain I've read this, but I'm now at a loss to find the source for reference.

The lack of reference is fine for me, since all of this is theoretical anyway. What I find exciting about quantum theory is not that it has now 'proved' magic as we know it, but instead it seems to have a sliver of possibility that allows you to consider 'magic' rationally as a byproduct of what might be happening at a quantum level. With a broad enough view of what defines 'information,' and following that patterns at a quantum level might cycle up to information patterns throughout the universe, I can have a modicum of faith that my Tarot readings have a connection to patterns in the world, simply by being part of it. Quantum theory allows me the wiggle room to posit that it is repeated information patterns, and not a benevolent angel/fairy/what-have-you, guiding the cards.

I haven't yet heard any retorts here that invalidate or close the door to that beleif, in that someone has proved that these theories and postulations are not true. I might be off base on this, but being involved in magic seems to demand equal parts skepticism and wonder. For me, quantum theory (as well as superstring theory, or the holographic universe theory) happen to sit fittingly between the two.
 
 
Brother Tim
20:29 / 19.11.07
I was referring to the work of Brian Josephson when talking about the double blind experiments on pre-cognition. I should point out that I do not have first hand knowledge of these said experiments but that I have a friend who is currently writing a book and quoted these experiments to add validity to his own experiences and to cover his back. He interviewed Brian Josephson, who is a Nobel prize winner, and as I trust him and his opinions are relatively alligned with my own I have no problem in referencing them. I have since discussed similar experiments over lunch with people here in Edinburgh who took part as a couple at the college of para-psychology yielding similar results. A nice example of synchronicity in itself. I believe it goes like this... A computer generates images from a larger bank of images, some are benign others are emotive, something that should stir the emotions unless you are a cold psychopath! The subject is hooked up to something monitoring brain wave patterns. Before the emotive images appear the subject has a brain wave response, they pre-empt the shocking or painful image. The experiments in Edinburgh apparently tested the couples partner in an adjacent room who also got a brain wave response. People collating the data are able to do so without having any knowledge of the experiment, satisfying 'double blind' criteria. This implies a human emotional capacity to transcend the here and now whether this relates to string theory or other. If scientists are showing that emotions or consiousness can relate to the physical realm beyond our structure of time within an area of proximity this has some interesting implications for those of us working with consciousness. Some experiments measuring effects of directed intention or emotions would be nice! Not sure how you would formulate such experiments that would answer to science, still seems like more of an 'art' to me?
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
23:47 / 19.11.07
That sounds something like the hypothesis I've come up with to explain acts of precognition I've had - basically my guess is that if an event is shocking enough (good or bad) that the initial momment creates a strong enough psychic disturbance, than the energy* spreads back in time. It also spreads forward by means of thought, and this may strengthen the signal, as precognition and current cognition bounce back and forth.

For me, this requires a conception of time as a block as well as individual momments - a holographic view of time if you will - similar to a stone thrown in a pond, where the stone is the psychic disturbance, the ripple extends as far as the force of the stone allows it, and I'm at various places in the pond. Whether or not I can sense the ripple however, depends on whether or not I'm in a state which allows for it, whivh tends to be something along the lines of running on automatic - i.e. when driving a car and meditating.

Of course, it could all be co-incidence and delusion - I'm open to that too.

*ala Jung on psychic energy.

Regarding parapsychology, the most interesting findings I'm aware of were those of RECORDON, E. G., STRATTON, F. J. M., & PETERS, R. A. (1968). Some trials in a case of alleged telepathy. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, 44, 390–399 where a Mothers bond with her mentally impaired son was tested - I'm unable to find it online, however it's mentioned in this paper on Deception by Subjects in Psi Research and states:

In one study of apparently genuine telepathy, several members of the Magic Circle attempted to detect a code between a mother and son but were unable to do so (Recordon, Stratton, & Peters, 1968). Abb Dickson and Artur Zorka performed some tests with Uri Geller and reported positive findings (Zorka, 1976). These magicians were well known and well regarded by their colleagues. Obviously, some critics will not be satisfied with evidence even when it is certified by a magician.


This case came to my attention via The Sense of Being Stared At where on pgs 54-56 it states:

"...The case concerned a mother and her son with complex needs. The boy was born with impaired vision, was partially paralysed and was also mentally retarded. When an opthalmologist tested him at regular intervals, starting when the boy was five, he was suprised to find that the child did much better in standard eye tests than his vision would have allowed. 'I was amazed when trying to estimate his visual acuity by his astonishing guesswork when asked to identify letters, etc. It gradually dawned on me that this guesswork was peculiarly interesting; and I came to the conclusion that he must be working through his mother'. The boy could read the letter only when his mother was looking at them. This discovery raised the possibility that they were somehow communicating telepathically.

Peters and his colleagues did some preliminary experiments at the family's home. The mother and son were seperated by a screnn, so no visual clues were possible, and in any case the boy was almost blind. The mother was shown a series of written numbers or words of one syllable, and in many cases the boy guessed correctly what they were.

The next experiments were carried out over the telephone and were tape-recorded. The boy was 19 years old at the time. The mother was taken to a laboratory in babraham, six miles from Cambridge, while the boy remained at home. The experimenters prepared cards on which numbers or letters were written, and these were piled up, face down, in a random sequence. One of the researchers turned up the first card and showed it to the mother. The boy, six miles away, then guessed what it was. The mother responded to his guess by saying 'right' or 'no'. Then he guessed the next card, and so on. Each test only lasted a few seconds.

Out of 58 tests with numbers, the boy guessed 20 correctly the first time (34.5%), and 19 correctly on the second attempt (32.7%). The numbers 1 to 10 were used, hence there was a one-in-ten chance of guessing correctly by chance (10%). The boy's actual result was far above chance, and was highly significant statistically, with odds against chance of 50 million to one.

In the tests with letters there were 45 trials, and the boy guessed right the first time in 17 (37.8%) and the second time in 12 (26.7%). Here the probability of guessing correctly by chance was only 1 in 26 (because there are 26 letters in the alphabet), and the odds against this result being due to chance are greater than 10^16 (10 with 16 zeros after it) to one.

Peters and his colleagues carried out further tests over the telephone with similar results. In a total of 479 trials with numbers, the boy was right 32% of the time on his first guess, with astronomical odds against chance of 10^27 to one. In the total of 163 tests with numbers, on his first guess he was again right 32% of the time; the odds were even more astronomical, 10^75 to one..."

When Barbelith gets upgraded, a predictive text function would be appreciated :/

Sorry for not linking any of this to Quantum Physics - I'm doing some research on the subject so that my thoughts on how it does link up, don't come out like psuedo-scientific garbage.
 
 
Quantum
07:25 / 20.11.07
Brian Josephson, for reference.
 
 
Unconditional Love
08:48 / 20.11.07
This idea of time as past present and future in a field or on a line seems to have some consequence to thinking about precognition or pre hypnotic progression. I was once introduced to it being a very western representation of the phenomena of motion measured as time.

Another way of relating is to define all time as now, this begins to throw up ideas that the moment of your birth is happening now as is the moment of your death and everything in between, the universes expanding and contracting, birth and death all in the same moment as you type at the keyboard, with every potential experience also taking place.

This seems to fit in nicely with ideas of precognition but goes against the instinctual recognition of what motion is, also keying in the ideas of one set of matter existing in all multi verses. As if their is only one set of matter in one permanent state of now containing all potentials.

Pre cognition then becomes a glimpse into potentials that already exist and are happening now, but in that context you have just been born and are already dead also.

Its a bit mind bendy and i have no idea if this idea of time has been explored scientifically.

Has anybody heard anything more about this guy and his theory E8 Is this the theory of everything?
 
 
Brother Tim
20:38 / 20.11.07
Mako:"Of course, it could all be co-incidence and delusion - I'm open to that too."
Delusion as a mental state has to have a stage as it were. Having had first hand experience of 'delusional' people it struck me that many of the things they reported were in a sense in line with the sorts of things we are discussing if slightly skewed towards their own problems or pre-cursors to their delusional state. Delusions brought on by an emotional fatigue or inability to cope often have a pseudo spiritual tinge. There seems often a fine line between 'spiritual experiences' and delusion the difference often lying in the subjects ability to assimilate such experiences. Ideas of the Shaman as healed Schizophrenic, delusional in a context that is able to accept delusion. I would agree with the idea that significant events likely to create strong emotional responses seem to cause 'ripples' which can be percieved before the event.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
02:36 / 21.11.07
There seems often a fine line between 'spiritual experiences' and delusion the difference often lying in the subjects ability to assimilate such experiences.

“Voices Within”, Cosmos Magazine Australia, Issue 13, feb/mar 2007, pp 72-74.

"…Perhaps no other symptom is associated with insanity. But while some 70 per cent of schizophrenics hear voices that regularly interrupt their thoughts, as do 15 per cent of those who have mood disorders, auditory hallucinations are not necessarily a sign of mental illness. They can arise as symptoms in any number of conditions, including Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s diseases and temporal lobe epilepsy. And episodes can occur in the absence of any physical or psychological problem.

Although such experiences are heavily stigmatized today, many famous thinkers, poets, artists and scholars of earlier times described hearing voices: a wise demon spoke to Socrates, the saints emboldened Joan of Arc, and an angel addressed the great German poet Rainer Maria Rilke, inspiring his Duino Elegies. The list goes on: Carl Gustav Jung, Andy Warhol, Galileo, Pythagoras, William Blake, Winston Churchill, Robert Schumann and Gandhi, among others, have all reportedly heard voices.

In fact, auditory hallucinations may not be an uncommon phenomenon. Because it is difficult to define the experience with true precision, date on its prevalence differ from study to study… roughly 70 percent of the 375 college students they questioned admitted to having heard voices at least once. Subject attributed the voices that they had heard to deceased relatives, divine beings or their own thoughts. Some had heard their name spoken, often before falling asleep. Acoustic perceptions during waking or pre-sleep phases – reported by 40 per cent of subjects - are generally viewed as psuedohallucinations, or hallucinations that a person knows to be unreal. By including them in their tallies, these researchers may therefore have produced a high estimate.

Nevertheless, in 1991 a U.S National Institute of Mental Health survey found that nearly five per cent of the 15,000 American adults who responded has experienced hallucinations – most of them auditory – during a one-year period; but only one-third of this group also met criteria for a psychiatric diagnosis… at lead three to five per cent of the population of western Europe and the United States hear voices. Schizophrenia, in comparison, affects only about one per cent.

…Acoustic hallucinations may arise from “too much inside” or “too little outside”. On one side of this theoretical coin, Bock suggests that, psychologically, some affected people maybe hold too much on the inside. Sufferers have often experienced some kind of trauma in their lives, such as neglect, physical, emotional or sexual abuse, or a sever accident. Many then suffer from unresolved conflicts or find themselves in situations that overwhelm them. In these cases, verbal hallucinations may serve as signals that they need to pay attention to their own inner voices.

…They found that during the hallucinations, the greatest increase in brain activity took place in Broca’s area, a region involved not in hearing speech but in producing it. Other speech-processing areas of the brain, including the superior temporal gyrus in the left temporal lobe, are under close scrutiny. This gyrus, or bump, is responsible for speech perception and plays a crucial role in the integration of acoustic and speech information… In addition they found activity in the primary auditory cortex, which normally processes sounds from the outside world. No wonder these patients believed their hallucinations were real: their brains responded to them in much the same way as they did to actual speech.

…On the flip side of Bocks theoretical coin, hearing voices is not always a consequence of neurobiological change. Sometimes the brain simply receives too few stimuli from the outside world. People who hear voices often live extremely withdrawn livers – and the hallucinations, in turn, fuel social rejection. Some sailors and hikers, for example, who have endured stimulus-poor conditions for prolonged periods, have reported auditory hallucinations. Indeed, the poet Rilke’s ‘angel’ spoke only after he had lived for two months in isolation at Duino Castle… the brain stores auditory information that it has captured over an extended period. If the external output is cut off, the deposited signals may take on a life of their own.

Whether hearing voices presents a medical problem depends largely on how much a person suffers… The mentally ill, however, far more frequently described negative voices… the other study participants usually heard benign voices that encouraged them… Most people who experience acoustic hallucinations attribute a purpose to their voices. How they view their voices – well meaning or out to destroy them – is almost always a function of what they hear.

…Frequently it is enough to reframe the voices. Even if they are overwhelmingly negative, other intentions may be attributed to them through therapy… the main goal is to make sufferers “masters in their own house” again. Patients can sometimes regain this control not only by listening to the voices but by answering them, concentrating on positive messages and agreeing to specific, limited talking times. Another mainstay of treatment involves changing a patient’s social interactions. Often a person’s interaction with his or her voices mirrors their relationships with real people…. People [who] usually subordination themselves to someone else, they will tend to hear dominant voices. The net effect is that the hallucinations become increasingly real..."

I find it of interest that some schools of magic, such as Franz Bardons take on Hermetics, actively encourage students to learn how to hallucinate at will as part of their magical education. It makes me wonder how much of invocation and evocation is a matter of becoming aware of ones own mind 'speaking', as opposed to being visited by a third party entity. It also makes me wonder if such visitors are only able to communicate to us through such indirect means, and whether or not the voices in the night are genuinely attached to these visitors.
 
 
Papess
03:21 / 21.11.07
Wow Mako, I think I just started a thread on that.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:57 / 21.11.07
Sorry, but how did we get onto auditory hallucinations? What the fuck have have auditory hallucinations got to do with quantum physics?
 
 
Digital Hermes
16:49 / 22.11.07
I'm assuming it had to do with the 'action-at-a-distance' connection to a holographic universe theory, which was my fault, I beleive. In the same post, I discussed how information systems on a subatomic level could cycle up to information systems on the macroscopic level, involving individuals, social groups, even society.

That was the concept, and my inroad to how quantum theory seems to at least leave the concept-door open, though still in a fairly un-provable scientific state. It also demands a pretty wide definition of what information is considered to be.
 
 
Quantum
07:52 / 23.11.07
I don't think it did, I think the thread got rotted by offtopica about voices. Nothing to do with quantum physics, just generally riffing off the conversation.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:03 / 23.11.07
I apologise for my tone in that post. Yes, long posts about hallucinations which are not tied into quantum physics in any way are off topic, but there was no need to be all grrr.
 
 
Quantum
12:19 / 23.11.07
I didn't find it overly grr, but I'm coming from a position of massive frustration. The lack of a basic grasp of quantum physics, physics and indeed science has made this thread largely pointless and actually quite painful. I count it among my failed threads.
In fact I'd like to propose a lock, unles we'd all prefer to just let it sink.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:33 / 23.11.07
I'd be sorry to see it locked, because I still have hope that we could actually have a discussion of magic and quantum physics one of these days. I do wonder though if this is just one of those discussions it's impossible to have on Barbelith because of the general anti-science bent on the board.
 
 
Quantum
13:36 / 23.11.07
I've reluctantly come to that conclusion. Next time I'll try in the Lab. It can be lock time now? The discussion has turned to schizophrenia and I am sad.
 
 
Digital Hermes
15:09 / 23.11.07
If this thread is locked, may I open a new one, with some stronger linky-fu with various texts that lend a smidgen of credence to my theories? I'll also try to have a more cogent position of what I consider information to be, and how it relates to quantum mechancics.

I don't want the subject to die, even if the thread is considered rotten, mainly because in the last week I've read/heard interviews with Robert Anton Wilson, Terrence Mckenna, and tarotist James Wanless all hint towards a connection to Quantum theory with their more esoteric theories. I also think Barbelith as a virtual location, and the Barbeloids in the Temple or otherwise, as a prime group to discuss those possible connections.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:09 / 23.11.07
Okay, that sounds like a plan. I'll put my vote in for the lock, and we'll start over.
 
  

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