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Hamas Victory

11:58 / 27.01.06

With the advent of a Hamas victory in the Palestinian authority’s legislative elections, how will international relations in the region be affected? Will this victory lead to a fundamental policy shift in the Bush administration’s universal promotion of democracy?

13:13 / 27.01.06

Well, I'm not shocked, TriDove. From The Guardian, Tuesday,

Hamas, known for its suicide bombings and calls for Israel's destruction, has emerged as a formidable political force, attracting voters with calls for clean government and an end to Fatah's corruption, while pointing to its own popular social and education programmes.

Google '+fatah +corruption +chaos' or read Juan Coles on Salon

... Bush is saying that even though elections are democracy and democracy is good and powerful, it has produced unacceptable results in this case, and so the resulting Hamas government will lack the legitimacy necessary to allow the United States to deal with it or go forward in any peace process.

I think this was the obvious thing for the Palestinian people to do, and it might eventually lead to some sort of meaningful compromise. It won't be easy though.

13:15 / 27.01.06

I'm sorry, Juan Cole, not Coles (or whatever I wrote).

14:38 / 27.01.06

I really wonder if there's anything to be learned from the way the ANC came to power in comparison to this.

Israel and the US have both refused to talk to the new government, and a lot of aid money has just vanished.

It's... difficult, the situation.

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:42 / 27.01.06

As has been said elsewhere, it's bizarre for the world to be "stunned". What else did anyone expect?

16:54 / 27.01.06

Does no one else see the humour in Hamas being democratically elected?

17:31 / 27.01.06

Not enormously. Alanis says no.

19:28 / 27.01.06

The question is if they'll use this opportunity to move away from "terrorist action". I mean, armed fighting, of (almost) any kind, is perfectly justifiable if the fighting group has no political voice, but that is not Hamas situation anymore, not by a long shot.

But, Bush saying the election is not valid because they don't like the results, and therefore it is not democratic, is a huge mask-dropper, if you ask me...

Regrettable Juvenilia

21:32 / 27.01.06

I mean, armed fighting, of (almost) any kind, is perfectly justifiable if the fighting group has no political voice, but that is not Hamas situation anymore, not by a long shot.

Could you explain this in a bit more detail, Dead Megatron - what exactly is meant by "political voice" here?

23:15 / 27.01.06

"political voice" as in a way to change one's nation (for instance) within legally sanctioned methods, i.e. election, legislation, that kind of stuff

06:33 / 28.01.06

or, say, extensive charity and community works programs? like the majority of hamas' activities have always been?

and before you say it i'm not downplaying their atrocities. but lets put em in a bit of fucking context eh?

also worth noting, this wasn't a general Palestinian election, it was about the PA areas of the West Bank (i.e. see here). and Israeli tightly and pretty arbitrarily restricted voting rights (to about 6% of Jerusalem voters, for example) - see this Guardian article:

>>Last year, Palestinian negotiators tried to open talks on expanding the Jerusalem voting arrangements to include the entire electorate. Israel ignored their requests until the last minute, despite its obligation under the Road Map to facilitate "free, fair and open" Palestinian elections. Under international pressure, the two parties sat down to discuss arrangements a week into the three-week campaigning period. In few democratic societies would election experts and lawyers be negotiating the right to campaign with secret policemen and soldiers. Such is the absurdity of building Palestinian democracy under the boot of Israeli.<<

Our Lady Has Left the Building

08:47 / 28.01.06

Does Hamas have an equivelent of Sinn Fein, or is it all one big organisation without even the pretense of seperating the fighters from the talkers?

Our Lady Has Left the Building

08:49 / 28.01.06

Oops, answered my own question.

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:54 / 30.01.06

Israeli army shoots and kills nine-year-old girl for "behaving in a suspicious manner reminiscent of a terrorist". World not described as "stunned" by anyone.

Aya was the second child killed by the Israeli army last week. Soldiers near Ramallah shot 13-year-old Munadel Abu Aaalia in the back as he walked along a road reserved for Jewish settlers with two friends. The army said the boys planned to throw rocks at Israeli cars, which the military defines as terrorism.

...

"Hamas has kept the calm for a year. Israel is still killing our civilians," said the Hamas leader in Gaza, Mahmoud al-Zahar. "Why is it that the Israelis can continue to kill our people, innocent people walking down the street, and there is no criticism from those who tell us we must give up our historic struggle against occupation? Why are they so afraid to criticise Israel but tell us what to do?"

He's got a point, hasn't he?

18:27 / 30.01.06

A major point, if you ask me...

The army said the boys planned to throw rocks at Israeli cars, which the military defines as terrorism.

What happened with "proportional response" anyway? If those guys say it's alright shooting children in the back for that reason, maybe what we need is a very serious discussion on the definition of "terrorism". By that account, I'm guilty of terrorism myself (oh, those confusing teen years...)

What we need, I believe, is some sort of independent international board to set parameters to define a terrorist, who can be acused of breaching those parameters, and enforcing them. The US and Isreal are not really unbiased judges, are they? UN, where art thou?

18:30 / 30.01.06

Good luck with that one...

18:45 / 30.01.06

yeah, it's a far-fetched hope, anyway. But, if we don't dream of a better world, how can we build it?

21:27 / 30.01.06

If Hamas agrees to recognise Israel then it's possible that aid will continue. Hamas have tried to reassure the world that aid money will be spent on 'salaries and day to day living'. I realise that saying, in effect, "we promise we won't spend it on guns" isn't the ideal hard and fast agreement, but is it not a start?

21:50 / 30.01.06

The quartet are in an unenviable position.

They really don't want to be seen to be giving money to terrorist organizations at the moment, particularly not ones that have been actively singled out and proscribed as being a terrorist organization.

On the other hand - if they withold aid the people that are going to be harmed most are ordinary Palestinian refugees and the Palestinain civil service, police etc. Many of the police aren't actually linked to Hamas, but are instead loyal to Fatah, the Palestinian organization that the West are more keen to do business with. The police are also the people best positioned to bring pressure on Palestinian militants even more extreme than Hamas... Cutting funding to the police could very likely lead to more violence in Palestinian areas and possibly even more attacks on Israelis.

So, the choice appears to be give money to people you've described as terrorists or let more innocent people starve while simultaineously disempowering what little restraining influence there is on extremist elements of the Palestinian cause...

Most likely outcome i think is some kind of fudge that allows the relief money to be paid to some government sturctures that are not connected to Hamas...

03:23 / 31.01.06

Most likely outcome i think is some kind of fudge that allows the relief money to be paid to some government sturctures that are not connected to Hamas...

I don't know, that option may leave lots of room for corruption.

07:57 / 31.01.06

Well, quite. One of the reasons that Hamas was elected in the first place was an attempt to get rid of the corrupt elements of Fatah. It would be self defeating for the quartet to give money to the politically acceptable but corrupt Fatah over the less corrupt but politically difficult Hamas, particularly when the Palestinian people have overwhelming chosen Hamas to govern them.

13:27 / 31.01.06

What we need, I believe, is some sort of independent international board to set parameters to define a terrorist, who can be acused of breaching those parameters, and enforcing them. The US and Isreal are not really unbiased judges, are they? UN, where art thou?

The UN has tried to define terrorism since 1937 but I guess 70 years isn't enough time to figure it out. See here for proposed definitions:

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/terrorism_definitions.html

Most likely outcome i think is some kind of fudge that allows the relief money to be paid to some government sturctures that are not connected to Hamas...

Didn't the administration make a statement that money will continue to be given to teh same people/organizations it has in the past? Maybe that's just the short-term plan until something else can be figured out. The U.S. is in a tight spot. I agree with you in that some fudging will occur and corruption will continue. After all, it's not like the U.S. really cares all that much about the Palestinian people.

13:58 / 31.01.06

The UN has tried to define terrorism since 1937 but I guess 70 years isn't enough time to figure it out. See here for proposed definitions:

I tried to resist pointing this out, but have quite clearly failed - It would have been a real feat if the UN had succeeded in defining terrorism in 1937, what with it not coming into existence until 1945...

Like the link says, the League of Nations, predecessor of the UN, tried to define terrorism in 1937...

12:58 / 01.02.06

Well, aren't I ashamed of myself! You're quite right, of course. Perhaps I have a tendency to mush all ineffective multinational organizations together.