BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


"We Publish Fiction, Not Documented History!" or: Why DC Was Better Off Without Continuity

 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:07 / 22.01.06
Can you even imagine how today's crybaby fanboys would respond to this editorial comment?

 
 
CameronStewart
13:39 / 22.01.06
Please post that on every comic book message board there is.
 
 
Rachel Melmoth
14:30 / 22.01.06
I've never said this of an editor of any sort before, but TESTIFY! HALLELUJAH!
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
00:27 / 23.01.06
Absolute bollocks. If you're going to work on the principle that your characters share a universe so that you can take more of the public's money then you have a certain duty to have a consistent history for those characters and their experiences. This is not fanboy whining but A BASIC PART OF FUCKING STORY-TELLING you cock. This is a prime example of:

a) Why old comics suck.
b) Why getting rid of letters pages in comics was a good thing.
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
00:40 / 23.01.06
In a slightly less BRIAN BLESSED tone, I'd like to advance a viewpoint somewhere between the two. In that there's a place for stories where imagination isn't crushed by continuity. A very big place indeed, I would hope. However, part of the appeal of an ongoing superhero universe is that it's a constantly developing body of myths, and a consistency to those myths that gives (often fairly sketchily-drawn) characters a sense of history. (There's also the compulsion, described elsewhere on these board as "autistic" to know everything there is to know about a fictional world, and a joy in being able to add up or recognise obscure elements of continuity, but that's more of an acquired taste). Also, what about alternate universes/imaginary stories? Can you not have both a vital and imaginative set of stories and those creating a detailed and developing "history" of a fictional world?
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
01:06 / 23.01.06
The DC universe is a BIG place. There's plenty of room for continuity and weird explanations. And two weird glitches can lead to a more imaginative story later on.

But at the same time, continuity IS nessecary to enhance reader enjoyment. No one wants to read about a world that changes all the time without reason (unless that's one of the main points of the setting).
 
 
Jack Denfeld
02:33 / 23.01.06
Duh, women from Atlantis can switch between tails and legs. A No-Prize for me please.
 
 
A
02:42 / 23.01.06
I read a JLA trade paperback from Joe Kelly's run the other day, and part of the action happened at Stonehenge. However, I also remember reading a Superman comic from the late 90's were Stonehenge was destroyed by a giant.

Also, I'm pretty sure the planet Pluto got turned into some kind of floating death fortress and removed from the solar system at some point in DC continuity, yet in JLA Classified, our pal Grant Morrison, with scant regard for precious continuity, has Batman and the Squire on... yep, Pluto.

Now, can one of you continuity fans explain to me how any of this matters in the slightest?

If a writer wants to put use a landmark or a planet in a comic, should he have to read every other comic ever published by DC to make sure it hasn't been destroyed or removed (or whatever) in any of them?

Would it make for better stories if editorial had stopped Kelly and Morrison from using Stonehenge and Pluto in their comics.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:28 / 23.01.06
(BTW, My 'you cock' was aimed at the editor, not anyone here)
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:12 / 23.01.06
Well that makes it a good argument then.

The editor is actually quite right, of course. For a cautionary indication of why trying to connect disparate characters, concepts and stories into a "cohesive" "universe" (when they were never intended to be part of any such thing), we need look no further than the latest issue of Infinite Crisis.

Going by the rules of continuity, we are obliged to see this fun-loving boy:



...As the same person who is now punching people's heads off, tearing off arms and breaking his canine chum's face thanks to damaged manchild Geoff Johns.
 
 
Dan Fish - @Fish1k
08:25 / 23.01.06
No, that's Earth1 (or possibly Earth2, I'm not sure) Superboy.

The one in Infinite Crisis is Earth Prime Superboy, he has only appeared in about 4 comics.
 
 
Aertho
10:48 / 23.01.06
That post, right there has got be part of the joke, right?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
10:52 / 23.01.06
What is Earth Prime?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:55 / 23.01.06
It's a planet filled with small carbon-based lifeforms who we must protect, Grimlock.
 
 
Triplets
10:56 / 23.01.06
I'd like to advance a viewpoint somewhere between the two.

Well, yes, which is what Grant was getting at sega(/ages) ago with "super-consistency" and what the editor above had cottoned onto even earlier. Basic elements stay the same: Superman is still tough, Ma and Pa Kent live in Smallville etc and he fights Lex Luthor occasionally. Everything else can be fluid and fishgirls can have legs AND fins.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
11:13 / 23.01.06
The Flash Sequnces in IC#4 wouldn't have any resonance whatsoever if weren't for some small level of continuity. Obviously that kind of nit pick (fins, gills, whatever) is asinine, but on a basic level continuity allows for enormous multi-tiered stories to be told when done correctly. Although my definition of continuity falls in that "somewhere in between" category and is defined by me as "Just Let Me Figure Out What Order To Put Them In, Thanks".

Other universes handle cotinuity in that broader sense, and that's worked too, but what's the blatant harm in trying to have everything tie together, at least over the past few years? I don't think DC has any interest in tying together today's stories to like Adventure Comics #16, or making sure Aquaman is wearing the same color shirt. Nobody sensible really gives a shit about that kind of continuity. But if you're going to say that all these stories take place in the same universe and reality at the same time, I don't think it manchildery to expect that they all follow the same timeline.

So:
Costume Designer Continuity = No
Script Girl Continuity = Yes
 
 
Aertho
11:44 / 23.01.06
The Flash Sequnces in IC#4 wouldn't have any resonance whatsoever if weren't for some small level of continuity.

Infinite Crisis wouldn't be necessary if it weren't for too much continuity.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
11:58 / 23.01.06
Infinite Crisis isn't necessary.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:33 / 23.01.06
The Flash Sequnces in IC#4 wouldn't have any resonance whatsoever if weren't for some small level of continuity.

I have a feeling that Geoff Johns bringing someone else back from the dead is facing an uphill struggle on the resonance stakes anyway.

I an JORN!

I can HEAL YOU!

or, alternatively

I CAN HEEL-TURN YOU!
 
 
CameronStewart
12:43 / 23.01.06
Lady Firecracker - was your post intended to be satirical? Or do you actually believe that "old comics suck" and that continuity is a precious, precious thing?
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
13:23 / 23.01.06
Haus, have you read IC#4? As I was referring to a specific scene, not the mere act of bringing someone back from the dead.

It was resonant when considering the past arcs of several of the characters involved, at least in my opinion. It wasn't about "Oh, no way, I can't believe he showed up" it was about a confluence (okay, is that actually a word?) of events that had been led up to over the past couple of years, as far as the characters were concerned.

I don't see how this particular approach hamstrings imagination (having just noticed the thread summary). I think it's pretty silly to claim that any comics are created today without some use of imagination (limited as it may be in some cases). I don't think it's some strange alien concept in the landscape of contemporary comics. No one is documenting what it was like two weeks ago when that guy stopped a helicopter from crashing into Central Park with his bare hands.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:05 / 23.01.06
I was being slightly facetious, Benjamin, for which I apologise. I confess that the very thought of Geoff Johns, reanimator, undoing one of the only heroic sacrifices in the DCU that stuck in the interests of a Tharg's Future Shock gives me the shivers, and not I suspect in the desired way. However, who knows?
 
 
FinderWolf
15:15 / 23.01.06
I would point out, however, that Barry Allen is still dead and nevertheless has been showing up to say a quick hello from the timestream/speed force (mostly from points in time before he died) every now and then in the DCU for the past 8 years or so. But he's still really dead. I feel they haven't actually 'brought him back' as they did with, say, Hal Jordan or, oh, Green Arrow, Superman, Jason Todd, the list goes on...
 
 
FinderWolf
15:18 / 23.01.06
The letter Flux started this thread with is fantastic - love seeing those old letters from lettercols. Yellowed paper, old fonts, fun discussions...always a treat. Also fun when the letters are from former fans-turned-creators back in the day.
 
 
Aertho
15:27 / 23.01.06
I like that the editor starts with: "Are you serious?"

This is obviously before supercomics began pandering to fanboys.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
15:35 / 23.01.06
The letter Flux started this thread with is fantastic - love seeing those old letters from lettercols. Yellowed paper, old fonts, fun discussions...always a treat. Also fun when the letters are from former fans-turned-creators back in the day.

I actually stumbled on a B Clay Moore letter in a GM JLA. That is definitely always fun.
 
 
The Falcon
16:15 / 23.01.06
Oh, I've read that one. He uses the verb 'hunker', which is... I dunno, something. It's not a word I use.

I don't mind continuity at all, it's just never proven a reward in and of itself to have it referenced 'n' revered. Or if it was, it was so slim as to effectively not constitute such.

Reading the Flash bit, I got a bit carried away, partly because I was plowing through the week's books to get to Superman and didn't have time to distance myself, partly because I like Wally, having read nine issues of his book and a lot of him in JLA, and partly because I know what happed in the original COIE (I may have read the page online somewhere.) I don't know if this constitutes terribly much emotional payoff, ultimately; these kinda comics are really always about what's next.
 
 
Mario
16:40 / 23.01.06
To quote Walter Simonson (because he said it better than I ever could):

"Continuity is a good servant, but a poor master".

If the story is good enough, continuity can go hang.
 
 
sleazenation
17:20 / 23.01.06
Trouble is altogether too often the story isn't good enough...

Which is to say, I care less about the pros and cons continuity and more about getting some good stories, something that writers on both sides of the debate could do well to pay attention to...
 
 
Spaniel
20:03 / 23.01.06
Basically ditto.

I've made it pretty clear over the years that I'm not a huge fan of continuity, but I'm not hugely against it either, as long as it's proponents are realistic about what it can and cannot achieve*, and there are superhero comics that operate without it (thank goodness for ASS).

*Which, IMO, can never be more than something similar to Morrison's super consistency, anyway (I am prepared to argue this).
 
 
This Sunday
14:45 / 24.01.06
Of course, there's always the 'reality was altered and since you're part of reality, you don't remember the altering, but recall/intuit the difference' excuse, which works both for big shared universe serial fiction stuff, as well as, say, the 'Back to the Future' movies and the evaporating family in the photo.
There's a state, where these shared universes, like the DCU, are shared only when two characters are in the same book or on-panel together, like it's happening in two completely different sets for those touching-contact-points only. Somewhere along the line, that went out and the sense of absolutely integral all things happening, came into play quite strongly.
 
  
Add Your Reply