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The relationship between art and place

 
 
Tabitha Tickletooth
16:32 / 21.01.06
Last year, visiting Malta, I saw this painting in the vault of a church in the capital Valetta. It is an extraordinary painting, but what struck me when I viewed it was how great its impact in the space it was displayed. It is a beautiful work, imo, but I actually felt deeply moved by it at the time - it was displayed in a small, dark room in which the little light that penetrated was drawn into the painting and it overwhelmed everything else (including several other wonderful paintings).

This is a picture I took at the time, which does it very little justice, unfortunately, but might give you some idea of what it was like.

Further investigation revealed that it was painted by Caravaggio while he was at this cathedral for this very room and I think this is one of the reasons it had such an extraordinary impact.

As we largely view artwork in designated gallery spaces or other 'art collection sites', often far removed from and long after they were created, does this change the way we see things? Given that work can be created or commissioned with no specific idea of display space in mind, does it matter? Do people have examples of other art they have seen displayed site-specifically, as it were, and did it make a difference? I imagine this might be more common with sculpture, but it is equally relevant to me.

TBH, following this experience, I would go out of my way to view things in their context to explore this idea further, if anyone has any suggestions.

If this topic has been covered in another thread please redirect me - I did some searching around and couldn't find anything similar.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:45 / 22.01.06
The physical context is certainly important, and it certainly has an effect on the piece and how it's perceived. Lighting, atmosphere- they all play a part in the overall appreciation of whatever object we're looking at- we don't view anything in isolation.

Further, I think any context can be valued; the idea that there is less value in a painting if it is at point B rather than point A is disagreeable. Certainly there will be differences, but to say "This painting loses it's value if it is placed outside of context A" seems wrong.

If the painting mentioned in the opening post, for example, was in the middle of a battlefield, it wouldn't lose value, but I can imagine that the nature of it's value would change.

What I make an exception for is the idea that certain surroundings better focus the viewer on the object- if that's what's needed. Hence art galleries today being, in general, white cubes. Yet that's only an absolute value if you only value the object in isolation.
 
 
missnoise
22:59 / 25.01.06
Image hosting by Photobucket ?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:06 / 26.01.06
Meaning what? That space is poetic? I agree, if that's what you're saying, but your meaning isn't clear.
 
 
Tabitha Tickletooth
08:42 / 27.01.06
I don't mean to suggest that a piece of work has less or greater 'value' depending on its context, although this can clearly have an impact on your appreciation of it. I certainly wasn't saying that " "This painting loses it's value if it is placed outside of context A"" which I thoroughly agree would be wrong.

I believe that where you view paintings does change your experience of them, and I often find galleries are not the best places. Particularly flying visits - at a monster like the Hermitage you just suffer art fatigue, but there's that 'one day to visit so I WILL see everything' imperative (for me, anyway).

What I am particularly interested in is whether people have seen or know of works that have been painted for a specific space - be that a stately home, a particular gallery, whatever - and what impact they feel that has on the work. Whether its viewed in the 'specific' space or elsewhere. A really simplistic example might be the Turbine Hall at the Tate. Art is designed for that space and works in that space - there is a very strong relationship between the work and where it is displayed.

Paintings on buildings - can't really be moved so a bit of a moot point, but the artist has a very strong sense of the way (light, perspective) etc the work will be seen when creating the work.

I'm interested to know what the experience of artists might be. You paint something in a certain place, and perhaps with a certain place in mind for its display. Do you paint for where you are or where you will be? Have you created something, only to see it displayed in an environment which has changed it in some way for you?

I'm not an artist, but I'm sure that many, if not most, works of art are created as discrete units, as such, and that context is a high priority for the artist or the viewer. However, I'm interested, in this thread, in the art where it might be.

I'm definitely not saying 'gallery = bad / how dare you hang that Monet in a hospital lobby / I painted that for the crypt and I'll die before you hang it anywhere else'. Just wondering what people's own experiences of art in different contexts has been. I'm also very keen for any tips about art that people have seen in a particular context that they would recommend a visit to.
 
 
Persephone
10:03 / 27.01.06
I have always wanted to visit The Rothko Chapel, but also the way that Rothkos tend to be hung in museums has a chapel-like quality anyway.

The transfer of art from stable to movable supports was a huge development, I have a bit more information in a book at work...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:03 / 27.01.06
I think that the original location of an artwork can add something to it but equally if a space is created specifically for work it can do the same thing. A lot of people have a bestilled reaction to the Rothko room in the Tate Modern.

I think this is a good thread... I'll be back, probably after work.
 
 
Tabitha Tickletooth
21:41 / 27.01.06
Interesting link Persephone - it does indeed look worth experiencing. What draws you to this as an experience of art particularly, if I may ask?

And it prompts me to think of the concept of why some religious work is so powerful. When in Rome (trite, but what can I do) I visited a chapel on the old - ie vatican - side of the river, on a busy square filled with people playing games, drinking, enjoying a bit of busking style music and I went into a chapel on the corner of the square.

Entering the chapel was to be transported instantly into a world of utter silence. At the very front of the chapel was a huge oil painting of the transfiguration. You needed to put a few lira into a box and a light would come on to allow you to see this painting in all its glory. It was magnificent, although with my meagre knowledge, I don't believe the work to be particularly significant in artistic terms.

I was struck at the time by a realisation of what people might believe to be a religious experience. To be moved from the busy, noisy, Rome street to a silent space where something beautiiful is revealed momentarily to you - I, as an atheist, can see why someone might perceive this as sacred. I believe it is a triumph of art - architectually a physically affecting space combined with a work of art. Together this creates a physical impact which goes beyond the component parts and becomes something you feel rather than just see.

The more I reflect on my experience of art and place, the more fascinating I feel it is. Though perhaps I am articulating it poorly.
 
 
Persephone
23:44 / 27.01.06
Well, Rothko is my favorite artist. Nina, I definitely want to see the Rothko room at the Tate.

I guess the difference between Rothko in a chapel and Rothko in a museum could be that in a museum the context is, say, the narrative of art. It's Rothko placed in the context of Abstract Expressionism, Pollock, de Kooning, and so forth. It's intellectual. Whereas in a chapel, I think you would get more of the spiritual aspect. I mean, Nina has talked before about the Rothko room as a spiritual and emotional space & I'm not saying that a museum can't be that; arrangements will vary, and some will be more successful than others.
 
 
Persephone
23:47 / 27.01.06
But I am specifically talking about the *meaning* of a place as another type of context.
 
 
jeed
18:52 / 02.02.06
I'd love to go the Rothko Chapel...looks stunning.

Apologies for the disjointed post, just a few thoughts i had...

I'd like to second Legba's point about the site being important. Something like Chillida's Wind Combs




or the stuff at Yorkshire Sculpture Park arguably heavily rely on their setting to give them their impact, but i think the Wind Combs are interesting in that they're so a part of their environment they become really powerful, in that you know they're going to erode and fall into the sea at some point, much like the rocks they're on: they CAN't be curated, filed or archived.

Maybe a neutral (white gallery walls) or natural (outdoors) hanging/placement allow the essence of the piece to hit you with minimal interference?

With sculpture you can obviously make things more site-specific than paintings, but where would graffiti fit into that? I mean, a 'fuck the monarchy' piece would have more impactand mean more on the side of Buckingham Palace than on some random underpass.

Oh, and Tabitha...I saw that painting in Malta when i was a kid, it was the first time that I learnt that art could feel like more than colours or a lump of stone, I still rate a piece of art's impact in relation to that first experience.
 
 
Lysander Stark
09:42 / 10.03.06
Sadly when I was in Malta, I arrived too late to see Caravaggio's painting-- they had closed for the day.

Most of the comments below apply essentially to religious art-- when it comes to environmental art or the wonderful Chillida wind combs, location is everything, but somehow in a different way...

I believe that location is hugely important in art. While the fairly neutral space of a public gallery does place paintings in the context of the History of Art, itself valuable, seeing a religious painting in the place for which it was intended conveys so much more. This is in terms of information and of poetic feeling and atmosphere. The irony is that this is more art historically valid.

And importantly, as was mentioned earlier, galleries seldom reproduce the actual conditions of the original hanging, meaning that light effects can be wrong, or that they hang at the wrong height. Paintings, for instance some of the Mantegna works in London's National Gallery, that were intended as a frieze at a good height in a building are viewed instead at eye-level and look distorted as a result.

I think that one of the problems is that we are encouraged too often to look at religious paintings in particular as secular and art historical objects, avoiding the whole icky question of belief and function. Seeing a good Caravaggio in a church in Rome is so much more rewarding because of the effort you have made, the function it is still performing, the smell of incense, the sense of veneration... Whereas seeing one in a gallery it has been neutered, is somehow no longer alive in the same way. Even the Rothkos in Texas would lose something by being taken from a chapel and placed in a room in a museum. The context of religion, even if it is not one that I, as a fairly a-religious person, share, adds a whole wealth of poetry and information.

I like, when I see religious art either in or out of context, to try to imagine the awe with which people steeped in religion would have viewed the work at the period of execution. Caravaggio would have been the Peckinpah of his day, Raphael an image of infinite grace, the Wilton Diptych probably appeared almost Science Fiction amazing in Medieval England... I think that is the aspect of it that I, brought up as a Protestant if anything, was never taught, and which most museums neglect to emphasise.
 
 
wandering aengus
23:50 / 24.03.06
I don't mean to break the thread of thoughts on the historical meaning of art in space, but I want to bring in the perspective of an artist, as was suggested.
I think there is great power in giving a work of art the "space to breathe." It may be that in museums there is often simply a lack of such space around each piece, crowded together as they are for efficient viewing. In a spiritual setting, in addition to the space around a painting that is considered important to the faith, there are metaphorical fingers pointing to the sacred power of the work, including incense, and candles, the coming together of architectural lines, etc., which serve to calm the mind of the visitor and bring it to focus and rest on the piece. A good museum should also exhibit these qualities (though through the secular means of architecture, lighting, correct placement and spacing) to ensure that the viewer is able to give sufficient attention to the work it houses. A piece of art that is passed over as rubbish sitting in the corner of a crowded room might be viewed as a masterpiece in the correct setting.
site-specific sculpture brings quite a different vocabulary into the dialectic of art and place. The art doesn't so much inhabit the space as emerge out of it.(I'm not going to speak of "plop art," the distressing phenomenon of a sculpture stuck callously and indiscriminately in the landscape) An artist can use the focusing power of the natural play of forms and colors with contrasting elements-- so the attention is grabbed not by placing the thing in the not-thing but by growing the thing out of Nature.
 
 
dogwonder
14:20 / 06.04.06
When at University studying for a Fine Art degree, a group of us would always try and leverage in the longest words or phrases into any essay we wrote. The best I saw (and have subsequently used ever since) was 'Omnipresent Layered Inherent History'. I've always liked this phrase and have since seen many situations where this can be applied.

When I saw this post, the phrase immediately sprung to mind. I feel that the location of a piece of art is influenced (and influences) its surroundings. Architecture is a great example.

The phase can be interpreted in many ways (esp. the Omnipresent bit) and could even be stretched to mean that the surroundings influence the piece on an almost subconscious level. For example, an artist may wish to create a piece of work to unsettle a space, but is still responding to the surroundings.
 
  
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