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The Revenge of the Brains!

 
 
Evil Scientist
14:15 / 19.01.06
I'd put a link to the Guardian if I could find the particular report in the on-line version. But hell, you know where the Guardian site is don't you kiddies?

A recent study at University College London has found a marked difference in brain activity between men and women when they experience schaudenfreude (gaining pleasure at another's pain).

(The below is not a direct quote, but paraphrased).

The volunteers (16 male, 16 female) took part in a financial game with fours others whom they did not know were actors. During the game, some actors played fair, giving equal amounts of money to each volunteer, whilst others blatently cheated.

The volunteers were then hooked up to MRI scanners and shown the actors recieving small electric shocks. When the fair players recieved shocks there was marked activity in the areas of the brain associated with empathy and pain in both men and women. When the cheaters were electrocuted the women displayed a similar reaction, but the men showed little to no activity in the empathy region, and instead showed activity in the region associated with recieving reward.


I'll post a link as soon as I find the report. In the meantime, what are people's thoughts on this?
 
 
Dead Megatron
14:26 / 19.01.06
What? This means males are more prone to "hold grudges" then females? That, vengeance, as it is, is ours?

Maybe, on a darwinian point of view, this is so because women always had to be more "forgiving" of their men, who (I suppose) have been having sex with multiple partners for eons and eons? And men had to be unforgiving because this would disencourage their "wives" from fooling around? Yoy know, that "male are poligamous and female are monogamous" theory. If that's so, it's quite a primitive "alpha male" thingy, and it's hight time we evolve beyond it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:43 / 19.01.06
This means males are more prone to "hold grudges" then females?

Well, no. There's no indication that any simmering time was allowed. It shows that men may respond with gratification to seeing those who they feel have wronged them suffering.

I'm not sure about this - there are other factors that might be in play, and the sample group is pretty small. How convincing is this data, and what should we do with it?
 
 
Dead Megatron
01:55 / 20.01.06
The sample group is to small
 
 
Evil Scientist
06:47 / 20.01.06
That's very true. A more widescale experiment would clarify matters. It would also be a good idea to test whether this particular result was not based on societal factors as well. Would a Buddhist male get the same result?
 
 
Seth
10:07 / 20.01.06
I propose a Barbelith experiment. Each of us will go round stabbing everyone who has wronged us in the hand. Then we'll report back here and share our experiences.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:27 / 20.01.06
It felt good. It felt really really goooooooood.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:53 / 20.01.06
Hopefully the link will take you to the Guardian story. Link.
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:31 / 20.01.06
Why is it that every time someone discovers a new neurological differece between male and female brains, it is a British scientist? Are they the only ones resarching behavioral neurology, or do they just advertise better?
 
 
Evil Scientist
21:22 / 20.01.06
Not really. There's plenty of hardcore work being done in mainland Europe and the US. Other parts of the world too.
 
 
alas
09:12 / 21.01.06
First, have to agree that the sample size is far too small, and almost certainly composed of entirely Western subjects.

Which may or may not make a difference, but I do get annoyed when such studies are interpreted--by the media, at least, if not really by the scientists themselves--as definitely revealing something about gender differences being "hard wired" and "biological" without, seemingly, any suggestion that cultural norms and social conditioning might have at least something to do with it.

It's not about, say, how a few British subjects reacted to specific stimuli at a specific place and historical period, having been raised in the same cultural environment; it's about ALL MEN AND WOMEN FOR ALL TIME.

This is sloppy thinking.

Maybe, on a darwinian point of view, this is so because women always had to be more "forgiving" of their men, who (I suppose) have been having sex with multiple partners for eons and eons? And men had to be unforgiving because this would disencourage their "wives" from fooling around? Yoy know, that "male are poligamous and female are monogamous" theory. If that's so, it's quite a primitive "alpha male" thingy, and it's hight time we evolve beyond it.

The idea that females are somehow "naturally" monogamous has been discredited for some time now. Birds, chimps, humans...there's much evidence suggesting that female non-monogamy is as much a part of human development as male non-monogamy--from a variety of measures. The assumption that females are more likely to be monogamous seems to have been pretty much a self-serving, heterosexist male fantasy, that has blinded many scientists to evidence that's been right in front of their noses.

Although I'm very loathe to credit this study at all as saying anything definitive about males and females, and am pretty skeptical of all arm-chair Darwinism, because cultural assumptions shape what we see and how we interpret it, it would seem more likely that, if it were to be backed up with broader research, it has to do with child-rearing expectations of women in most human cultures. Empathy is probably the most vital skill for childrearing; it's necessary to remain empathetic even when you disapprove of a child's behavior.

Surely, humans can be conditioned by experience to be more or less empathetic. So, even if the findings could be replicated in broader and more culturally diverse pools, I'd still be loathe to assume that this reveals anything definitive about men and women for all time and in all places, forever and ever...
 
 
astrojax69
21:01 / 22.01.06
yes, alas, the sample size is small, but the culture argument i'm not so sure about. this work used mri to see where in the brain lights up and i don't think this can be changed much by culturation...

our centre has done some [unpublished] work that suggests women's brains process emotional responses to seeing an angry face in different hemispheres, depending on the face being male or female; where men's brains process angry faces in one place irrespective of the sex of the face's owner.

we're still unsure as to the efficacy of the experiments and certainly in the dark about why this might be the case, if it is found to be so. obviously, we suspect some evolutionary reason to form some of our thesis, but it is all very early in the work for such speculation.

but fascinating!
 
 
SMS
23:47 / 22.01.06
his work used mri to see where in the brain lights up and i don't think this can be changed much by culturation...
I'm no expert on brains, but I would think that, if feeling empathy is affected by culture, the corresponding brain state would necessarily be affected by culture. If I become angry, a certain part of my brain will become active. The fact that this is a physical thing does not mean that it is innate to me.
 
 
eye landed
02:10 / 23.01.06
this work used mri to see where in the brain lights up and i don't think this can be changed much by culturation...

the brain response pattern to, say, revenge, is probably similar across cultures-- hormones and such. but each culture will recognize different contexts and significances in which the revenge circuit will activate. a member of some idealized 'noble savage' culture with very little concept of material ownership is unlikely to feel vengeful if someone 'cheats' them out of some property, while someone from our materialist culture might feel more for a financial slight than some kind insult to honour.

in the same way, men and women could be trained to respond to different situations with the same circuit. the same emotional response could be appropriate to different stimuli, just as it would be across cultures. imho, in both inter- and intra-cultural variation, biological evolution sets up more similarities than differences (it tends to make everyone efficient in the same way as much as possible), while language and acculturation produce categories.

for example, in this study, the data was probably not a discrete man group and a discrete woman group. there was probably something like a continuum, with men tending more towards one end and women towards the other. there were almost certainly 'woman-like' men and 'man-like' women even in this small sample. i think the results say something about both a) the culture that produces this alleged tendency, and b) the culture that constructs this study and its meaning.
 
 
alas
20:22 / 23.01.06
this work used mri to see where in the brain lights up and i don't think this can be changed much by culturation...

our centre has done some [unpublished] work that suggests women's brains process emotional responses to seeing an angry face in different hemispheres, depending on the face being male or female; where men's brains process angry faces in one place irrespective of the sex of the face's owner.


Just to agree with the previous two comments, and to add that you seem to be assuming that these people are somehow "pure" of culture in their brains. This is quite simply untrue. Human brains never have and cannot develop properly outside of culture. If you don't learn language by the age of 12, you probably cannot learn language. Culture and environment and basic development of biological processes are thoroughly entwined.

And, to back up sherman's point, I do strongly suspect that this study did find some kind of continuum, but the insistance on drawing clear distinctions between men and women has strong, conservative political implications.
 
 
Sean the frumious Bandersnatch
23:03 / 25.01.06
There's a somewhat related thread on the difference between male and female brains that I started http://www.barbelith.com/topic/19551, if anyone's curious. And I totally agree with what SMS (who I've never heard of, despite that the person has over a thousand posts) wrote, that "The fact that this is a physical thing does not mean that it is innate." Brains develop over time, especially in infancy, and it's possible that this is a case of society shaping personality, which in turn effects the 'wiring' in the brain as it forms.
 
 
Sean the frumious Bandersnatch
23:06 / 25.01.06
Sorry, I posted the link all backwards. What I meant was, it's here.
 
 
Evil Scientist
08:45 / 26.01.06
alas makes some very good points here.

First, have to agree that the sample size is far too small, and almost certainly composed of entirely Western subjects.

As the study was done at a university the sample group was most likely composed entirely of students (that is to say young men and women in their late teens/early twenties for the most part). It should be considered that at least some of the students may have been from non-Western countries, but the majority most likely were.

The idea that females are somehow "naturally" monogamous has been discredited for some time now.

Very true. It should also be remembered that women are just as capable of taking revenge. The study, if valid for humans as a species (and I agree a heck of a lot more work needs to be done before it can be called either way), only suggests that men take pleasure in seeing revenge take place, or at least see it as a pay-off, whereas women show a level of empathy for the target of the revenge.

It makes no call one way of the other about whether gender affects how likely one is to take revenge.

Which may or may not make a difference, but I do get annoyed when such studies are interpreted--by the media, at least, if not really by the scientists themselves--as definitely revealing something about gender differences being "hard wired" and "biological" without, seemingly, any suggestion that cultural norms and social conditioning might have at least something to do with it.

It's most likely the media tendency to portray the results of small-scale studies like these as "The Greatest Scientific Discovery Since Evolution!". But obviously without reading the paper it's hard to say. It's important to remember that a correctly done scientific study will not draw hard and fast conclusions from these results without further largescale studies.

I'm constantly aggravated by the media mis-reporting scientific studies/information. I foam at the mouth every time they talk about the M.R.S.A. "virus" (it's a f**king bacterium you morons!).
 
 
astrojax69
05:41 / 27.01.06
you seem to be assuming that these people are somehow "pure" of culture in their brains

no i'm not. if an area of the brain is responsible for something in our behaviour/experience/etc, then it will be activated by whatever activates it - cultural immersion, etc - but we can't make another bit light up just 'cause we want to.

a cultural experience may cause us to have such and such an experience and light up the bit of brain that will light up whenever the subject has that experience (or even sees someone else do it! - another topic altogether) but i don't think we want to have culture change the bit of brain that lights up. i can't see any biologicval reason for our brains to imstantiate this behaviour...

gotta go - more later. good thread...
 
 
Dead Megatron
20:46 / 27.01.06
The idea that females are somehow "naturally" monogamous has been discredited for some time now

Good, I never liked that theory much anyway. "Male heterosexist fantasy" seem to describe it for me pretty well.
And besides, I have been cheated on as much as I have cheated, which I find actually quite liberating

Oh, one more thing. Just to check my theory, astrojack69, where do you work? It's not Great Britain, is it?
 
  
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