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Underground > Laboratory >

Robots as manifestations of a nation's racism

08:26 / 17.01.06

Couple of articles that I found interesting and I thought others might as well.

Background reading:
US military robots in Iraq:
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,65885,00.html
Japanese 'helper'robots
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nb20050316a5.htm

The article here: http://www.livejournal.com/users/imomus/92990.html I thought, makes an intersting point. That the production of helper robots displays Japan's closed-border policy to immigrant workers, and the US production of military robots "an expression of the cultural situation of the US".

08:49 / 17.01.06

I'd argue that US military robots are no more an expression of 'racism' of interventionist US foreign policy than the invention of the Navy issue Colt handgun... isn't it an improvement over sending real live soldiers into combat?

09:14 / 17.01.06

I'm not sure (I don't mean that to disagree with your question; I'm honestly in no means certain of how I feel about it).

I think the fact that these robots aren't going to be killing other robots is what has me worried. Any concern about sending US troops into the the line of fire (and the main criticism of the war in the states appears to be the deaths of US troops) will be removed.

"This opens up great vistas, some quite pleasant, others quite nightmarish. On the one hand, this could make our flesh-and-blood soldiers so hard to get to that traditional war -- a match of relatively evenly matched peers -- could become a thing of the past," he said. "But this might also rob us of our humanity. We could be the ones that wind up looking like Terminators, in the world's eyes."
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,65885-1.html?tw=wn_story_page_next1

09:55 / 17.01.06

But this might also rob us of our humanity. We could be the ones that wind up looking like Terminators, in the world's eyes."

i'd argue that the robots are only the last in along line of technological advancements that have done just that already.
most of the iraqis killed so far didnt see the american responsible for taking their life, whether from inside his tank or behind his console.

i have a miltary friend who served in both afghanistan and iraq who tells me that the tank commanders supporting him racked up thirty kills a day on their drive north in the early days of the latter conflict. that's each, and thats's an average.

the callousness with which modern western armies view enemy casualties both civillian and military is astounding, and in stark contrast to the way in which they view their own.

the reactions to the attacks on new york, etc. suggested to me a people who have no idea what the horror of war is like, and their willingness as a nation to inflict it on other people suggests that this lack is due to a disconnection rather than a peaceful nature.

skynet is where it ends, not where it begins.

10:30 / 17.01.06

I think the livejournal author is reading a little too much into this with regards to the helper robots. These ones are, according to the various links, no more than glorified hoovers.

I would have thought robot cleaners/nurses are going to take jobs from non-immigrant workers as well. I can't see a company or a hospital just getting rid of the immigrant employees and replacing them with cheaper robots. Surely the whole workforce would be downsized to one nurse on a control desk?

With regards to the use of remote-piloted robots in warfare. Well, it's not just the US who're investigating applications of that technology. Minimising the causalties on your own side whilst maximising them on the other is a fairly basic part of war. A heavily-armed Talon is no different from a helicoptor gunship. Both reduce the targets to little fellas on a screen. Modern-day warfare is all about divorcing soldiers from the reality of killing, turning it into a first-person shoot'em-up.

It's unlikely you could use a Talon to replace a security patrol around a Baghdad district. It's controller is limited by the vehicle's senses. Psychologically, I would have thought people would find it much easier to lie to a voice on a speaker.

10:32 / 17.01.06

Out of interest, does anyone know if the UN has any rules banning use of completely autonomous robot units in warfare? I only ask because I know they do have one banning the use of weather control as a weapon of war, and thought it might come under the same umbrella of esoteric weapons.

10:33 / 17.01.06

i'd agree that it is a logical progression.

see, i dont think the US are bad or different. i just think they are further down a road that all of us can and probably will go down.

10:51 / 17.01.06

Curse the UN and their edicts banning weather control. I shall have to fall back on my Giant Magnet to crush my enemies.

10:57 / 17.01.06

i'm focussing my energies on back engineering the werferwerfer technology salvaged from the somwhat messy moldovan affair of a year or so ago.

that and the sorcerous monkeys with the rayguns.

10:58 / 17.01.06

The author's observation about different cultures and the technology of remote killing are different issues.

i just think they are further down a road that all of us can and probably will go down. I think that's the point the author was making; but he sees two or more different potential paths. He elaborates on this in the comments (which are probably a better read than the article itself). Regarding the helper robots; he's not commenting on their current abilities; but on different values being displayed in researching this technology.

I can't see a company or a hospital just getting rid of the immigrant employees and replacing them with cheaper robots. Surely the whole workforce would be downsized to one nurse on a control desk? Well, yes. But that's going to be a Japanese nurse; which will about fit the size workforce they're going to have. Similar to Europe's use of immigrant workers for various jobs that Europeans would rather not do. If the UK could have robot nurses, fully automated fast food vendors, online educators; I think the country would go for it (eventually).

On point two:
Certainly the robots are an obvious progression from handguns killing at a distance, tanks killing through a scope, guided missiles killing a dot on a screen; I think that the point here is the eventual development of fully automated systems (which clearly aren't far off; where there is no human involved even in a FPS game). It is clearly part of the same use of technology; but it's a big step in that progression.

10:59 / 17.01.06

that and the sorcerous monkeys with the rayguns

You leave my kids alone!

11:04 / 17.01.06

Is this same difference somehow further illustrated in contrast between the protagonists of the epic Big Guy and Rusty the Boy Robot?

12:32 / 17.01.06

I probably shouldn't comment at all. I can't see what either of these instances has to do with racism and I find them both very cool, seen purely as technology. Now, racism would enter the picture once people have been made redundant. Are they permitted to stay and seek other work or will they be selectively forced to leave based on their race? Would robots be deployed and used in Iraq but not in Europe?

I do notice that it's merely being suggested that the development of these robots lets us read out some of the racist structure in the abstract Japanese or US mind. Nevertheless, this seems very tentative, and rather unfair.

On the other hand I find it very frightening that the step is being taken to employing armed robots on the battlefield and in occupied territories. This is much further along than people seem to realise. DARPA's Grand Challenge Robot Rally certainly doesn't cover everything that's needed to build an autonomous killing machine, but it covers an awful lot of it. The army doesn't need a genuine AI to kill and control people. A simple machine will do very well.

Furthermore, there will be an AI, eventually. In contrast to notions of anti-gravity and faster-than-light travel I'd put all my money on it, if I only knew where exactly to put it. OK, it's not much money, but …

14:13 / 17.01.06

I'm being a bit slow: Now, racism would enter the picture once people have been made redundant. Are they permitted to stay and seek other work or will they be selectively forced to leave based on their race?... I don't follow you?

20:46 / 17.01.06

There's nothing racist in employing robots to perform a certain work even when coincidentally that work was previously done by foreigners. There is something racist in expelling those people from the country once they become unemployed. Seeking to construct these robots may indicate a racist structure in the society, for instance a general wish to be rid of all foreigners, or it may not. If the machines are employed though they are not cost effective, that would certainly indicate such a racist structure.

08:29 / 18.01.06

Of course it should also be remembered that robots are used regularly on production lines to do monotonous assembley work. I believe there was a lot of controversy when they were first introduced as they effectively took human workers out of the equation.

More evidence needs to be shown before I accept that the introduction of robotic service units and military activities are due (in all or part) to racist opinions held by the countries investigating their widespread use.

09:40 / 19.01.06

I think that chalking all these robotic developments down to racism is going too far, but at the same time, I do believe that the directions in which technology is explored reflect something of the nation's outlook. This is a good and logical thing to do, as it secures a market.

In the case of the States, the still-increasing number of casualties from their foreign adventures in enforced diplomacy - and the outcry that this has provoked - make it logical for them to seek a means of waging war with the minimum loss of life. This is an extension of many other projects.

In Japan, this is evident in a wider context in the isolationism that manifests itself in various ways in their policies. They do not like to be dependent on other nations, on outside sources. The invention of a robot workforce is surely an extension of that. It is not so much racism, as the unwillingness to depend on foreign labour-- although of course the symptoms and results of both views are essentially identical.

Mind you, if Japan had proper armed forces, I am sure they would be at the spearhead of the development of robot soldiers; if America did not have a constant stream of migrant and immigrant workers desperate to enter their country, I am sure they would be spending more on robot cleaners etc etc.

Are there ways in which such technological developments in other nations reflect other cultural, diplomatic or economic needs? Does the line-judge machine at Wimbledon count?

07:43 / 23.01.06

Are there ways in which such technological developments in other nations reflect other cultural, diplomatic or economic needs? Does the line-judge machine at Wimbledon count?

The English have a really crappy inter-city transport system and seem to love queuing? Does that count?

hee hee

nyarlathotep's shoe horn

23:38 / 27.01.06

a great many of the "modern labour-saving devices" (think dishwasher and vaccuum cleaners) resulted from the abolition of slavery and the creation of a middle class of women who had no idea how to run a household...

having had servants up until then.

suddenly, the "Joy of Cooking" appears, a very useful guide on how to gut a squirrel and make rack of lamb.

and soon enough, there are more labour-saving devices than you can shake a stick at, what with industrial, assembly-line automation.

we use leaf-blowers instead of rakes
cars instead of bicycles
dishwashers instead of hands
food processors, blenders, juicers, peelers, corers, all have electronic, labour-saving counterparts (if you'll pardon a bad pun).

if you believe that slaves-servants-appliances is a historical progression, then there, perhaps, is a tie between racism and robots.

as in, they are considered to be essentially different from those they 'serve.'

both people and machines can be servers.

have you ever seen a junkyard? It's not like we treat our machines all that much better than we've treated one another over the years.

--not jack

13:38 / 31.01.06

Hi Jack,
I don't think there was a direct link being proposed between labour-saving devices and racism. Rather, I think, the author was positing that the specific applications/developments of the technology in different cultures said something about that culture.

Not that the generic use of a robot implied anything much at all.

nyarlathotep's shoe horn

15:07 / 31.01.06

hey waxy,

I was proposing the link between labour-saving devices, servants, and class (which often falls along lines of race) in response to a coupla questions (maybe rhetorical) about the link between robots and racism.

came out of a discussion with my roommate about the origins of the "Joy of Cooking."

--not jack